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Thread: Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

    As we all know many Albanian but also Montenegrin, so known Malisor tribes have oral tradition of origin in Hercegovina.

    I think that among many scientific proofs that DNA researches did, like confirming theory of evolution. They also confirmed that Malisor tribes originated in Malesia e Madhe. Incl North Albania and partially Montenegro. Rather then in Bosnia or Hercegovina.

    I see people post that these tribes like Kelmendi, Berisha, Hoti, and others have origin in Bosnia and Hercegovina. So i am asking myself can you people interpret genetic results?
    What we are talking here are 15 century Albanian tribes. So not 15 century BCE, but 15 century CE. 500 years ago.
    Its clear that most of these clans belong to haplogroups E-v13, R1b and J2b2. Rather then I2a-CTS10228 that dominates in Hercegovina up to 70 % with its highest peak there.

    So i dont see how these great masses of various tribes arrived 500 years ago, from a place where these haplogroups are barely visible. And from a place where other language then Albanian was spoken.
    Greater logic would be that tribes are formed out of Malesia, North Albania and Montenegrin villagers and native people, from a desire to protect their lands under their own clan flag within Ottoman empire.
    Just as for example British writer Noel Malcolm recorded in his book about Albanian clans history. Just as we can see today from genetic researches.

    Vasojevici are also native Montenegrin tribe, and their Croatian and Slovene relatives are also with Illyrian Montenegrin origin.
    Hoti, J2b2, Kelmendi E-v13 and so on.. I think Leki and some others know more about specific oral history, and Kelmendasi, im not into that but i can see genetic results and possibilities clearly.


    Regarding clans not all belonging to same haplo that is normal, that is purpose of clan. It is not brotherhood. When more people and head chiefs gather around the same flag. Of course same clans could be more uniform but from every clan is expected to recruit these that are worthy and i believe a kind of oath is taken there.

    So there is not a single evidence that would support theory that 15 century Malesia tribes originate in Bosnia or Hercegovina, but everything is pointing out Malesia e Madhe, N Albania and partially Montenegro. Mostly out of villagers and locals trying to protect their lands.

    30 % of E-v13 in Montenegro, Serbia, its mostly assimilated Albanians more recently or Illyrian remains. Same with J2b2 and R1b. But also J2b1-M205 that was for sure native Montenegrin Illyrian group, and belonged to old 12 century Kriqi tribe.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    30 % of E-v13 in Montenegro, Serbia, its mostly assimilated Albanians more recently or Illyrian remains. Same with J2b2 and R1b. But also J2b1-M205 that was for sure native Montenegrin Illyrian group, and belonged to old 12 century Kriqi tribe.
    Nice try. If anything, J2-M205 should be a remnant of a Romanized population from the Middle East (e.g. Syrian archers in the Danube legions). So you should be looking at Vlachs as your ancestors not Illyrians.

    Before you go on a rampage, Vlachs were just about anyone who happened to live in the Balkans and was Romanized as seen by their haplogroups including locals, Germanic, Slavic, etc.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You were just one of these that i seen claim these stuff, which i would not have problem with if they were truthful but you obviously didnt understand this until yesterday when i explain you these stuff and taught you.
    Also why are you repeating here stuff that i taught you yesterday, about Vlachs, their origin and what they are. I taught you about Bosch et al and about Vlach origin and now you are repeating here to me the same things i taught you yesterday.

    Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post

    It makes sense what you're saying about the Vasojevic and obviously all those tribes in Montenegro are not related to each other as the legend says, but they all do come from Herzegovina

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205*

    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Nice try. If anything, J2-M205 should be a remnant of a Romanized population from the Middle East (e.g. Syrian archers in the Danube legions).
    Not really, our TMRCA of 1000 - 1200 years, also records about Kriqi tribe fit toghether. At that time Kriqi were already established as tribe and everyone recorded Kriqi tribe as none Slavic natives.
    Living in Montenegro and having relations with natives, what could have they be? Illyrians or latinized Illyrians..

    furthermore its clearly visible in phylogeny that our closest relatives and split among our closest relatives happened much earlier then in Roman time.
    Having great diversity in Mediterranean sea, having great impact in Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Sardinia, Spain, all the way to England. Considering M205 TMRCA, diversity and closest relatives, also places where they are, Phoenicians are great possibility. So if anything you should search for your origin among Vlachs, while i know my origin is Phoenician, but Phoenicians didnt only interact with Greeks, Sardinians and others but this specific clade M205>Y22059 has great potential to be Phoenician line that got assimilated into Illyrian ethnos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    So you should be looking at Vlachs as your ancestors not Illyrians.
    J2-M205 is none existent in Vlachs, as i went thru Bosch et al 2006 study. M205 is connected with Proto-Semites, Mediterraneans, and Canaanites.

    They tested Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania.

    The only two J2-M205 samples from this study were found in Albania. One at Aromun in Andon Poçi and another one at Albanian in Tirana.


    On the other hand there isplenty of E-v13 found among Vlachs. Therefore we can talk about about E-v13 clades and specific haplotypes found among Aromuns and Vlachs but for sure M205 is almost unfound among Vlachs.
    You as E-v13 carrier are much closer to Vlachs, Romanians and Aromuns then any M205 as Vlachs simply dont carry haplogroup M205 or even if its found among them it has close relatives among Albanians like Vlach sample from Andon Poci.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You were just one of these that i seen claim these stuff, which i would not have problem with if they were truthful but you obviously didnt understand this until yesterday when i explain you these stuff and taught you.
    Also why are you repeating here stuff that i taught you yesterday, about Vlachs, their origin and what they are. I taught you about Bosch et al and about Vlach origin and now you are repeating here to me the same things i taught you yesterday.

    Example:
    You taught me what exactly? Hahaha

    I've been writing on Vlachs for years on Eupedia and you are the only one who doesn't get what other members post here. It's evident your English isn't your strong point.

    Vlachs were present everywhere in the Balkans not just Albania, Macedonia, and Greece. It's just that those in ex-Yugoslavian countries "disappeared" and were fully assimilated into Slavs just like your M205 cousins in Serbia.

    Yes the Krichi tribe were indeed non-Slavs but that doesn't mean they were Albanian (hint: Vlachs).

    It's evident that all the originally non-Balkan haplogroups that became numerous after the Roman Empire are over-represented in Vlachs way more than in Albanians. That means they were foreigners and came and adopted the language of the empire and not the language of the local highlanders (Albanian).

    And one more thing, we call ourselves Malesor/Malsor/Malcor/Malcuer, Malisori is how Montenegrins call us.

    That many of our ancestors came from further North is proven by the Lahuta e Malcis and the Kange Kreshnikesh where places like Klladusha (North-Western Bosnia) are mentioned. And dont be so surprised as Herzegovina is as close as Puka or Mirdita to us, so check the maps again and realize that we didn't come from far away.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    You taught me what exactly? Hahaha

    I've been writing on Vlachs for years on Eupedia and you are the only one who doesn't get what other members post here. It's evident your English isn't your strong point.

    Vlachs were present everywhere in the Balkans not just Albania, Macedonia, and Greece. It's just that those in ex-Yugoslavian countries "disappeared" and were fully assimilated into Slavs just like your M205 cousins in Serbia.

    Yes the Krichi tribe were indeed non-Slavs but that doesn't mean they were Albanian (hint: Vlachs).

    It's evident that all the originally non-Balkan haplogroups that became numerous after the Roman Empire are over-represented in Vlachs way more than in Albanians. That means they were foreigners and came and adopted the language of the empire and not the language of the local highlanders (Albanian).

    And one more thing, we call ourselves Malesor/Malsor/Malcor/Malcuer, Malisori is how Montenegrins call us.

    That many of our ancestors came from further North is proven by the Lahuta e Malcis and the Kange Kreshnikesh where places like Klladusha (North-Western Bosnia) are mentioned. And dont be so surprised as Herzegovina is as close as Puka or Mirdita to us, so check the maps again and realize that we didn't come from far away.

    Its evident that you written this post without reading my last one which was typed almost in same time.
    Otherwise you would not mention Vlachs as i prove to you there that J2-M205 has no connection with Vlachs but with Pheonicians and thru them with Ancient Greeks, Illyrians, Sardinians, Spaniards, all the way to England.
    On the other hand there is plenty of E-v13 at Vlachs.

    You have plenty of cousins in Serbia, as E-v13 is one of major Serbian subclades today thanks to assimilation that happened more recently in Montenegro but also South Serbia.
    My "Cousins" are 1000 years far away, which fits into Kriqi tribe period. As Kriqi were native Illyrian Montenegrin tribe, its no wonder they got Slavicized together with 30 % of that E-v13 in different subclades.
    The only reason why M205 exists among Slavs and Serbs today is reason why Montenegro with its primary haplogroup E-v13 serbicized and become Slavo Serbs.

    And whenever we find M205 among Serbs today, we find extraordinary higher percentage of E-v13 among them there also. Its obvious that M205 and E-v13 were living together for a period and got Slavicized toghether. Speaking of Slavic relatives you have no right to tell me anything. Besides as i told you my closest relatives are 1000 years away, even before Kriqi tribe, so from times of Illyrian Montenegro.

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    You aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

    The Vlachs we know of today are but a fraction of what they where 500-1000 years ago before becoming Slavs, Greeks, or Albanians. So stop bringing me modern Vlach results from different regions when we're talking about Serbia and Montenegro. Vlachs from South Albania are different people.

    For your information, Vlach became anyone in the Balkans be them Illyrians, Thracians, Goths, Syrians, Dacians, Avars, Slavs, etc. that got Romanized.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    You aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?

    The Vlachs we know of today are but a fraction of what they where 500-1000 years ago before becoming Slavs, Greeks, or Albanians. So stop bringing me modern Vlach results from different regions when we're talking about Serbia and Montenegro. Vlachs from South Albania are different people.

    For your information, Vlach became anyone in the Balkans be them Illyrians, Thracians, Goths, Syrians, Dacians, Avars, Slavs, etc. that got Romanized.

    There is not one single evidence that would connect J2-M205 with Vlachs since Vlachs are 1000 CE ethnicity while M205 spread to Cyprus, Greece, Albania, Sardinia, Italy, Spain, England in multiple clades in timeframe 4000 - 6000 years. You can look at modern or ancient Vlachs lol i dont care at what Vlachs you look but there is plenty E-v13 at Vlachs while there is none at J2-M205, even if it was i would have no problem with it. But seems that you are trying to make me something what exactly you are: Arvano Vlach

    J2-M205 probably entered Greek ethnos when Greeks got literated by Phoenicians, as Greek, therefore Latin alphabets are based on Phoenician one.

    You are just butthurt sorrow monkey trying to prove something here because i said something on some forum years ago, something about potato noses rofl.
    Last edited by Dema; 30-03-19 at 01:02.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Guy tells me im Vlach/Aromun but there is not one single Vlach found with this haplogroup when large portion of Vlachs bears exactly his haplogroup.
    Then he tells me dont look at modern Vlachs but ancient Vlachs lol. So i am Ancient Vlach now? I dident hear this one before.
    Guy does not understand that only among Albanians we have multiple branches of M205 with 6000 years TMRCA? What kind of Vlachs are you talking about?

    Guy calls me out for my Serbian relatives, while his haplogroup is one of primary Serb haplogroups with multiple branches and subclades thanks to assimilation of E-v13 into Serbs, Montenegrins and Slavs.
    While i dont see a single relative on list because they are far as 1000 years away in time of Kriqi Illyrian Roman tribe.

    There is plenty of M205 in Lebanon, Cyprus, Greece, Sardinia, Spain, England, the only reason why i say this line M205>Y22059 is Phoenician>Illyrian is because tribe was Montenegrin and everyone recorded is as native, while on other hands closest relatives like Lebanese, Sardinians, Frenches, Spaniards, Brits and others are 5000 years away so its not recent spread.

    Fortunately or unfortunately this group seems to interact with Montenegrin Illyrians and that is how it end up here. Thats also why it partially got Slavicized>Montenegricized>Serbicized. Because of geographic position.
    There is South Albanian M205 groups also, even central Albanian groups, i connect them with Illyrians also but more closely related to Greeks. While Greek lines i connect with Ancient Greeks of Phoenician origin.
    J2-M205 Sardinians are also obviously of Phoenician origin. There is one line in Spain with more recent arrival tho, it matches Palestinians and Saudis 2000 years away while most of other Mediterranean M205 lines are at much further distance that predates Roman times.

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    Only Aromanians from Andon have liitle J2b1-M205 (5.26%). Other Aromanian have zero. J2b1-M205 on average among Aromanian is only 0.48%.




    Aromanians from Andon Poci have high I2a, and don't represent average Aromanians. Also sample is only 19 for Andon Poci Aromanians.

    Dema's wish that his paternal line is original Albanian is a joke. His ancestors are recorded as "Arnautaši" and they had Serbian identity before albanization for sure.
    J2b1-M205 is equally alien for Albanians as J2b2 for Serbs. J2b1-M205 is less than 1% among Albanians, and J2b2 is les than 1% among Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Only Aromanian from Andon have liitle J2b1-M205 (5.26%). Other Aromanian have zero. J2b1-M205 on average among Aromanian is only 0.48%.




    Aromanians from Andon Poci have high I2a, and don't represent average Aromanians. Also sample is only 19 for Andon Poci Aromanians.
    Another Illiterate Idiot : D I am sorry to say but even Serbs and Croats in J2-M205 thread were telling you that you are delusional spammer and that you need to be banned for trash posting and spamming. Then on the other hand, you have told me on private that you have also been banned on Serbian forum Poreklo for spamming. I have seen your level of understanding and you dont understand simple SNPs, STRs and genetic distance. Therefore you make catastrophic mistakes in interpretation of things only how you wish and want to see them.

    Vlachs dont have "little" but only one J2-M205 as you said, but even this table that you copy pasted clearly says 1.
    Furthermore only two J2-M205 samples were found in this entire Aromun study and they were both in Albania. One was ethnic Albanian while another was Aromun. Aromun sample has another Albanian sample as closest match, and no Aromuns in sight. Also there were not tested only Andon Poci Aromuns abut also Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romanians from Constanta, Romanians from Ploiesti, Aromuns from Dukasi in Albania, Aromuns from Andon Poci in Albania, Aromuns from Krusevo in Macedonia, Aromuns from the Stip region in Macedonia and Aromuns from Romania. And none of them had not even 1 sample of J2-M205, except for Albanian in Albania and one Aromun in Albania.

    Therefore thanks giving evidence on that what i was saying was truth!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Dema's wish that his o paternal line is original Albanian is a joke. His ancestors are recorded as "Arnautaši" and they had Serbian identity before albanization for sure.
    J2b1-M205 is equally alien for Albanians as J2b2 for Serbs. J2b1-M205 is less than 1% among Albanians, and J2b2 is les than 1% among Serbs.
    There is nothing to be wished for lol, my paternal line is without doubt Albanian and haplogroups dont represent modern ethnicity but rather ancient origin. I could have any haplogroup and still be Serb if i had Serbian MRCA, but not that i dont share Serbian MRCA with any M205 but even this haplogroup is extremely none Serb and none Slavic but rather entered recently in Serb ethnos. Do you understand what is Serbian MRCA or you need additional explanation? Only with Serbian MRCA you can prove to someone that he was a Serb, its not case with me.
    Serbs nor Slavs dont have any connection with J2-M205 except time when they assimilated Montenegrin and South Serbian population where they reached abnormally high percentages of haplogroups like E-v13 (Even 3x higher then their Slovene, Croat, Bosnian neighbors) but also clearly Albano Vlach groups like J2b2, R1b, J1, and of course one of the most alien group for South Slavs but for Slavs in general as it is one of most extremely non slavic groups that exist - J2-M205. J2- M205 for the first time enters in South Slavic but also Serb ethnos with assimilation of E-v13, J2b2 and primarily R1b, Albanian, Illyrian and Vlach haplogroups in Montenegro and surrounding areas.

    As it can be clearly seen by researches and best example to compare Serbs to also South Slavic nation - Slovenes. They clearly show same origin with Serbs having same I2a and R1a clades but what is alien to them just as to all other South Slavs is extremely high percentage of E-v13 that is accompanied with J2-M205. But also R1b+J2b2.

    Montenegrin clade of M205 Y22059 is one of most Illyrian M205 clades out there. Other M205 clades are Hellenic, Cypriot, Sardinian and rest of Mediterranean but of course, all clades are proto-semitic and most Mediterranean clades are Phoenician in origin.

    Albanians have multiple clades of M205 and found M205 from North to South while Serbs have only one clade they recently assimilated in montenegro with only 1000 years TMRCA, because its Illyrian Roman Kriqi tribe.

    You are lying with this SANU sponsored book just as you lied before in my M205 thread. You admitted that you are Deretic follower and that he is right about history. SANU also sponsored Deretic.
    Furthermore this book only purpose is to show that there was no Albanians in Kosovo prior to 17 century and that is why all old Albanian families were recorded as Serbs in that book, my family is nothing special, its plenty of them. Just to show that Kosovo was 100 % ethnically Serbian prior to 17 century which is absurd and laughable.

    Greeks Illyrians and Sardinians have contact with J2-M205 since 1500 BCE on Mediterranean sea. And both M205 and J2b2 have 1700 BCE Mediterranean ancient DNA while you were in Russia in that time.

    I know that you want to adopt J2-M205 because you want to prove Deretic theory that Serbs build pyramids.
    But i think you are after wrong haplo, i think its more about J1 and E-v22, M205 Pyramid sample was very young, 700 BCE. So you better stick with them

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    Jovan Tintor, J-Y22059, seemingly retaining various elements of the old J-Y22059 phenotype (maybe Dema can comment on his phenotypical similarities with Tintor):

    I have no doubt based on mental traits Dema displays that his phenotype does contain a variety of negative physical traits.

    As far as I know, there is some J-Y22059 from Greece which might have something to do with Megleno-Vlachs. In 1015 Byzantines settled in Meglen area Syrians, Armenians and Pechenegs. So considering one possible J-Y22059 in Beyrut bsed on STR's this might be the pattern of arrival for J-Y22059 and these Syrians look like a good match.

    Alternatively because of the gap in TMRCA when compared to it's parallel clades the presence could be older. Nebojsa spoke of testing some Greek M205's but not sure most of those would fit as J-Y22059.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Vasojevici are also native Montenegrin tribe, and their Croatian and Slovene relatives are also with Illyrian Montenegrin origin.
    Hoti, J2b2, Kelmendi E-v13 and so on..
    Vasojevici are Montenegrin clan with distant origin very likely in Herzegovina, it has been explained already by myself as well as i know you can read Serbian you can read it on poreklo. A very detailed work was published by an admin who is himself a Vasojevic.

    Yet your double digit IQ brain is seemingly incapable of comprehending some most basic facts that seem already apparent.

    I've explained it to you several times and as my and other people's knowledge in this matter is greater if you are unable to comprehend it, leave the thinking part to those smarter/more knowledgeable, shut your mouth and stop talking. You'll be doing yourself as well as others a favor.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Why are you posting childish none relevant stuff? Only because in Greek Ev13 thread you were trying to find origins for various clades while you were not realizing that you yourself fall into Albanian cluster. Telling you the truth as also genetic results show you that you are of Albanian origin and you fall into one of primary Albanian groups activated demon in you.

    Why dont you rather focus on my analysis 2 years ago where i clearly show that you are assimilated Albanian not even going into further subclades, also prove that you have Illyrian TMRCA with most of Albanians.

    You can look here at my thread from year 2017 where i was already analyzing E-v13 among Slovenes and comparing it with Serbs, where i first brought theory that since Serbian and Slovene R1a and I2a subclades match, and they both speak same South Slavic language. Enormous lack of E-v13 in Slovens but also similar percentage of it in North and East Slavs must give a big hint that original Slavs actually had more realistically 3 % of E-v13, just as Slovenes and majority of Slavs do. 20 % or 30 % of E-v13 among Montenegrins and Serbs is not just a huge anomaly for all Slavic lands, but also for South Slavs like Slovenes, Croats, Bosnjaks, Hercegovianians and so on. http://www.foleja.net/index.php?topic=390.0


    Regarding J2-M205, i cant talk to you about that right now because you will say anything, even rage over your mothers spaghetti since you think i am attacking you when in fact i think anyone realistic should tell you that you are of Albanian origin lol. I would never lie someone over his results and i actually analysed and explained results to many people, including few E-v13s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Why are you posting childish none relevant stuff?
    Because I seem to remember you sporting your ugly face on another forum, and so I ask you did you inherit some of your peculiar traits such as Tintor's nasal shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    you that you are of Albanian origin lol.
    Albanians did not exist when my clade separated from the Albanian cousins so your point is moot. Besides our ancestor spoke an Iranic or Thracian language when we separated not Illyrian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I would never lie someone over his results
    Then why do you lie that your ancestry is Albanian, as you have 100+ of cousins among Serbs, no cousins among Albanians and in ethnographic literature your family is clearly labelled as Arnautasi (albanized Serbs). Go back to your favorite book of Urosevic. Lying little Arnautas.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 31-03-19 at 17:00.

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    Aspurg please dont spam this thread because you are losing arguments in another thread.

    You are E-v13>Z17107>Y30991* You share your sublcade with 95% of Albanians. You are obvious example of assimilated Montenegrin Albanian.

    Not only you share your subclade Y30991 with tons of Albanians from all over Albania and all your relatives are being dominated with Albanians but also your primary subclade Z1707 has brother clades among Albanians like for example Kelmendi tribe.

    You have puro Albanian Illyrian haplogroup! TMRCA 900 BCE with plenty of Albanians. Be proud and stop acting like child!


    J2-M205 is found in multiple subclades among Albanians even tho not in that great percentage, its undoubtful that M205 had contact with ancient Cypriots (where we find it at highest percentages in world), Ancient Greeks, Ancient Sardinians, Ancient N Africans, Ancient Spaniards, Ancient inhibitors of England and so on..

    I have no complexes, but i made mistake in my Byzantine arrival theory because i focused only on TMRCA of one tribe which is wrong, rather also on separation time, closest relatives, distribution and other indicators like identifying and observing more claedes. Going strictly by TMRCA is wrong method of knowing time of arrival, that is what i tried to explain you in other thread but you ego is stronger then your reason.

    We dont have to "try to prove" our origin since we have ancient DNA to talk for us for that matter. And our overall TMRCA not being much higher then our ancient DNA timeframe, pretty much explains itself.

    Most of Mediterranean M205 spread long time ago, in multiple clades that are far up to 6000 years one from another. Serbs are the only ones with only one clade thanks to assimilation of Montenegro, South Serbia and surrounding areas where they also got abnormal percentage of E-v13, your clade definitively included, my dear Montenegrin Šiptar boy.

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    What percentage of Kosovo Albanians actually have Serb/Slavic Y-DNAs?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Corrado View Post
    What percentage of Kosovo Albanians actually have Serb/Slavic Y-DNAs?
    About 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    About 10%.
    Wrong. Stop pulling numbers out of your bum. Kosova has only 3-5 percent "Slavic" Y-DNA. Even then theres no high resolution testing on these samples. Its Albania that has between 10-20 varying study to study.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Wrong. Stop pulling numbers out of your bum. Kosova has only 3-5 percent "Slavic" Y-DNA. Even then theres no high resolution testing on these samples. Its Albania that has between 10-20 varying study to study.
    10-20% Northern or Eastern European dna, not Slavic. I don't see R1a exceeding 6% unless you start to include Vlachs and "Greeks".

    As for I2a-Din I don't think the jury is out yet. Many don't agree but Goths had a far greater impact in the Balkans than Slavs but for simplicity everything a bit northern is considered Slavic since they survived and Goths were Romanized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Wrong. Stop pulling numbers out of your bum. Kosova has only 3-5 percent "Slavic" Y-DNA. Even then theres no high resolution testing on these samples. Its Albania that has between 10-20 varying study to study.
    If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians from Kosovo have 7% Slavic y dna (I2a 2.5%, R1a 4.5%), and Albanians from Albania 21% (I2a 12%, R1a 9%) https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians on average have 12.7% Slavic lines (I2-CTS10228 6.8%, R1a-M417 5.9%)


    But Slavs were not only I2-CTS10228 and R1a, they had other haplogroups in smaller %.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians from Kosovo have 7% Slavic y dna (I2a 2.5%, R1a 4.5%), and Albanians from Albania 21% (I2a 12%, R1a 9%) https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    If we count only I2-CTS10228 and R1a as Slavic lines than Albanians on average have 12.7% Slavic lines (I2-CTS10228 6.8%, R1a-M417 5.9%)


    But Slavs were not only I2-CTS10228 and R1a, they had other haplogroups in smaller %.
    And R1a-L1029 in Sardinia is simply a Germanized Slav brought by Visigoths? Come on now with all the stories of Germanized Slavs.

    Same goes to I2a-Din, being brought to Eastern Europe from the West by Celts possibly, and pushed further down to the Balkans by Goths after absorbing it around the Carpathians, and finally it got Romanized and Slavicized. How can all these chains of events justify calling I2a-Din Slavic?

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    If Goths pushed it South, how do you explain that there was no I2a-Din found in 6th cent in a Longobard cemetery in Hungary, just before the arrival of the Slavs?


    So far, there is one French sample under I2a-M423>CTS10228, split almost 4000 years ago from the rest, when Slavs did not exist. The rest of the diversity below Y3120 is in Eastern Europe, specifically in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, and the earliest I2a-Din sample is from 10th cent. Poland.

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    Sample is pretty small, but based on what we got it’s around at 8% for Kosove (including Presheve). That CTS10228 came with Slavs is not even up for debate anymore. Same thing for majority of R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    If Goths pushed it South, how do you explain that there was no I2a-Din found in 6th cent in a Longobard cemetery in Hungary, just before the arrival of the Slavs?


    So far, there is one French sample under I2a-M423>CTS10228, split almost 4000 years ago from the rest, when Slavs did not exist. The rest of the diversity below Y3120 is in Eastern Europe, specifically in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus, and the earliest I2a-Din sample is from 10th cent. Poland.
    You mean the Langobard cemetery which shows affinity to Tuscany? Don't really remember much of the details from the study.

    You need a larger sample to prove the lack its existence, especially considering that I2a-Din has mostly a highland distribution while Hungary/Pannonia is a lowland.

    Anyway, I don't think there's still enough evidence to call it proto-Slavic.

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