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Thread: Similarity rate with different ancient genomes

  1. #101
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    my Eurogenes K36,Croatia and Montenegro seems to have the highest double digit values. What do you think JajarBingan still a coincidence the Croatian connection :) ?
    Edit: 23andme v5 chip



    S19928* (BY4518 G-, BY202815 G-, BY20073 nc, BY104590 nc, BY110859 nc ) / E1b1b1a1b1a6a1f~ && T2f1a1*

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Mine:
    The high Portugal number (Lusitanian and Ligurian similarities?) and the high Catalan number aren't really a surprise. I didn't think the German and especially French Swiss and Austrian numbers would be that high. The Cornwall number is a bit off?

    Anyway:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Ed. to adjust zoom function.

    Makes more sense now. The 55 is Brittany. The 76 was Balearics, not Catalonia. I guess Corsica really is Tuscany. :)
    Last edited by Angela; 06-04-19 at 17:31.


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    Carlos and Fernando in this order









    I have chosen two random chromosames, 3 and 22 to compare them with Fernando's.

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    [QUOTE=Salento;571955]if you’re on GedMatch and uploaded your RawData:

    https://genesis.gedmatch.com/

    > Admixture (heritage) > Select > Eurogenes > input your Kit Ninber > Select Eurogenes K36 > continue

    copy your Results.

    Then go to:

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm




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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Mine:
    The high Portugal number (Lusitanian and Ligurian similarities?) and the high Catalan number aren't really a surprise. I didn't think the German and especially French Swiss and Austrian numbers would be that high. The Cornwall number is a bit off?

    Anyway:
    I think 23andme is considering Swiss ancestry as Italian, wich could tell that swiss peoples have something to do related with italian peoples.
    Last edited by Angela; 06-04-19 at 17:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think 23andme is considering Swiss ancestry as Italian, wich could tell that swiss peoples have something to do related with italian peoples.
    It doesn't matter what 23andme thinks or doesn't think. That has to do with interpretation.

    This algorithm just uses the raw data, the snps, and clearly, going by Salento's results, they have both Ticino and German Swiss reference samples, and from my results they also have French Swiss reference results.

    Sorry if that disappoints.

    Cheer up. You're still 84% similar to some Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It doesn't matter what 23andme thinks or doesn't think. That has to do with interpretation.

    This algorithm just uses the raw data, the snps, and clearly, going by Salento's results, they have both Ticino and German Swiss reference samples, and from my results they also have French Swiss reference results.

    Sorry if that disappoints.
    Disspaointed about what?

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    Comparison of my kit with ZZ2243872 (Morisco of the ancient kingdom of Granada)



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    KSY56bN - Imgur.jpg And the winners are Alpine Germans!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Intuitively, some of these comparative results look so weird. I mean, less similarity with Minoans from the BA Aegean (18) than with Paleolithic Ust' Ishim, who barely contributed anything to the modern European population? Ust'Ishim looks much closer than Mal'ta (3), which is demonstrably connected to the ANE that does exist in most modern Europeans via the steppe ancestry. There are other strange results like that. Or are each of these groups (e.g. Paleolithic before glaciation, Northwestern Europe, etc.) to be judged on their own, that is, their results would not be comparable with those included in another group, only with those under the same label?
    Indeed. But the cool thing, I guess, is the big number of clusters in the calculator the similarity rate and map are based on, which serves the purpose of these tools, rather than being informative per se, in isolation. In fact, the tools work like an Oracle more or less, and they have a decent use for comparisons, making more sense when analysed as a whole. Plus, I guess a high rate tends to evidence, comparatively, a real high similarity. It's just that there must be a margin of error for them, naturally. Still, it's a nice reference, as we can observe empirically. Not perfect, of course.
    As for Minoans etc., the similarity rate uses a calculator with modern references, meaning the DNA of ancient samples are categorized in clusters based on modern individuals, and it doesn't matter the "distance" of each fit. So it's inverted. The purpose of calculators is to find how the individual is mixed, either using contemporary references or ancient. But ok.
    It seems K36, as all of its kind, calculates which cluster is the closest to a certain segment, and once it finds one, all the others are despised (zero fit). What matters are the overlaps of the results themselves, or if you prefer, the differences (100 - <differences>). So, if you get a relatively good fit of 5% of certain cluster, and the ancient sample gets, say, a bad fit of 10% (but still a fit; it will be forcibly categorized anyway), you'd get 5% more of "similarity" rate. As an extreme example, imagine a Denisovan against these tools. Let's hypothesize he gets some relatively high % related to certain Austronesians. The result is that the similarity rate between these Austranesians and a Denisovan could be higher than between the former and, say, the Sardinians(?).
    In short, the clusters are mutually exclusive. They become more informative when well chosen, as the reference samples.

    As you said in another thread, the results are not a given truth. A last example, practical, and not so extreme, are the Basques, a somewhat drifted pop. I'm not sure they get more Neolithic DNA than North Italians in admixture tests, for example. Probably not. However, Sardinians and Basques, "more than any other populations in Europe", would be those who best "preserved the 'original' widespread early Neolithic population component". Then I think we could say Basques are the second more similar to early farmers genetically, according to f-statistics. But not necessarily according to admixture. ;)

    @Angela
    I just checked my K36 results. I see some inconsistence just in Eastern_Euro and West_Caucasian clusters. Mine are higher than the sum of my parents'. That's using just 23andMe data. This fact could in theory result in a higher score than the sum of my parents', yes. I haven't checked if it happened though.

    Btw, the numbers in your similarity map above are a bit offset. It's likely a browser issue. Perhaps it has something to do with the zoom? Anyway, again, it's somewhat similar to mine, for obvious reasons. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Indeed. But the cool thing, I guess, is the big number of clusters in the calculator the similarity rate and map are based on, which serves the purpose of these tools, rather than being informative per se, in isolation. In fact, the tools work like an Oracle more or less, and they have a decent use for comparisons, making more sense when analysed as a whole. Plus, I guess a high rate tends to evidence, comparatively, a real high similarity. It's just that there must be a margin of error for them, naturally. Still, it's a nice reference, as we can observe empirically. Not perfect, of course.
    As for Minoans etc., the similarity rate uses a calculator with modern references, meaning the DNA of ancient samples are categorized in clusters based on modern individuals, and it doesn't matter the "distance" of each fit. So it's inverted. The purpose of calculators is to find how the individual is mixed, either using contemporary references or ancient. But ok.
    It seems K36, as all of its kind, calculates which cluster is the closest to a certain segment, and once it finds one, all the others are despised (zero fit). What matters are the overlaps of the results themselves, or if you prefer, the differences (100 - <differences>). So, if you get a relatively good fit of 5% of certain cluster, and the ancient sample gets, say, a bad fit of 10% (but still a fit; it will be forcibly categorized anyway), you'd get 5% more of "similarity" rate. As an extreme example, imagine a Denisovan against these tools. Let's hypothesize he gets some relatively high % related to certain Austronesians. The result is that the similarity rate between these Austranesians and a Denisovan could be higher than between the former and, say, the Sardinians(?).
    In short, the clusters are mutually exclusive. They become more informative when well chosen, as the reference samples.

    As you said in another thread, the results are not a given truth. A last example, practical, and not so extreme, are the Basques, a somewhat drifted pop. I'm not sure they get more Neolithic DNA than North Italians in admixture tests, for example. Probably not. However, Sardinians and Basques, "more than any other populations in Europe", would be those who best "preserved the 'original' widespread early Neolithic population component". Then I think we could say Basques are the second more similar to early farmers genetically, according to f-statistics. But not necessarily according to admixture. ;)

    @Angela
    I just checked my K36 results. I see some inconsistence just in Eastern_Euro and West_Caucasian clusters. Mine are higher than the sum of my parents'. That's using just 23andMe data. This fact could in theory result in a higher score than the sum of my parents', yes. I haven't checked if it happened though.

    Btw, the numbers in your similarity map above are a bit offset. It's likely a browser issue. Perhaps it has something to do with the zoom? Anyway, again, it's somewhat similar to mine, for obvious reasons. :)
    Dear Regio X.
    They recommend not zooming if you're using Chrome because the small squares appear offset from the geographic region they're referring to. I saw that Angela found her result of Cornwall low. In fact, on her map (map of Angela), the result refers to Brittany, France, and was moved upward, appearing to be from Cornwall probably by the use of zoom. They recommend using Mozilla Firefox in case you want to zoom.
    Big Hug :)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I changed the map zoom and edited my post. Thanks, guys. :)

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    @Sile knock knock

    I noticed that I only have one or two reds on the K36 Sim Map.
    I wonder if there’s a connection with the low frequency of the Y Haplogroup.
    I know that autosomal and haplogroups don’t necessarily relate.

    just wondering if you get low reds too. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Anyway, again, it's somewhat similar to mine, for obvious reasons. :)
    @All
    There is already a thread for the similarity map specifically. :)

    Here are mine (I should have chosen better colors; so please increase the brightness):
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...687#post510687

    @Duarte
    Thanks for the info.

    @Angela
    You're always welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    It's funny how most of you ethnic Italians seems to have more match with Neolithic Europe, Mediterranean Metal Ages and Mediterranea in general. While i have huge matches with something Bell Beaker ancestry. But on the K36, my biggest score of like 18.something is Italy. How's that translating in real hypothesis?
    Genetics and geography singing virtually in unison? :)
    That would be courtesy of the Alps mainly, hindering the gene flow. Anyway, that's why we're "Southern" Europeans genetically, not just geographically. I mean, it's already a regional (or sub-continental, if you prefer) cluster in many calculators, with high precision and relatively high recall in reports like the 23andMe Ancestry Composition. Meaning it's distinguishable, and meaning South Europe wouldn't be North Europe, East Europe, Middle East, North Africa or whatever. South Europe is... South Europe, also under a genetic perspective. ;)
    Anyway, for most Europeans, all roads lead to Asia. And Africa! It's just a matter of "when". At the end, we're all related.
    Btw, digression must be a "hobby" of mine. Sorry! :)

    As for your Italian %, hmm... Well, I don't know exactly, but the "Northern" part of Swiss ancestry must be fragmented in several clusters, whereas what we could call the Southern part would be divided in just few, Italian and Iberian being the main (at least for Western Europeans). Just a guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I think 23andme is considering Swiss ancestry as Italian, wich could tell that swiss peoples have something to do related with italian peoples.
    Not sure what you mean. As already suggested, 23andMe has nothing to do with it directly. The calculator tries to fit your DNA, the Raw Data, in the clusters, and it doesn't matter how you call them (could be just "A", "B", "C"...). The references matter, both from the calculator and map. If a certain segment falls in any of these clusters, it means it has more similarity to the related references compared to others'. That's it. The labels don't change the similarity results you get, of course. So, assuming the references - used by the calculator - for the Italian cluster come from Italy, which seems obvious, then 18% of your DNA would be more similar to them compared to all others, including the several "Northerners". Italians themselves get %s from other clusters, naturally, and you may get some from the same, which is added in the "similarity rate" between you and these Italian references used for the map.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    These are my results using solely AncestryDNA raw data. I think it looks quite similar to the results of the combined raw data file.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    These are my results using solely AncestryDNA raw data. I think it looks quite similar to the results of the combined raw data file.



    I made this colorized version of the map.

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    I agree with Angela there seems to be a Lusitanian/Celtiberian - Celto-Ligurian connection.
    I thought I'd get more Roman, and more Basque.
    Equal distances from : Baleares, Normandy, Lombardy. - Madrid, Innsbruck, Antwerpen. - Aragon, Brittany, Friuli. - Romagna, England, Wales. - Rome, Copenhagen, Orkneys.
    Never felt so distinctly European!
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    I made this colorized version of the map.
    Recent Ancestors v2 (Admixture Studio v1.2)

    AncestryDNA: (1 week ago)


    NatGeo Helix: (Yesterday)


    23andme (2 weeks ago)


    The program updated often.

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    ^^

    0`01 Spain


    Less is more at any time that Iberian 0'01 can seize you

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^

    0`01 Spain


    Less is more at any time that Iberian 0'01 can seize you
    It’s all relative. :)

    Those were the most Recent Ancestors.

    Further-back in time I get more substantial Iberia.

    (The more tests I take, the more confused I get) LOL


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^

    Within us is all the information, perhaps at a subcosm level. When something does not fit too much the subconscious mind somehow tells us in their own way so we feel confused, I think it is a good indication that in this or that aspect something fails. Pay attention to the messages and clues that your own subconscious sends you are clues and rough messages that may seem to still create more confusion. Ask your subconscious to show you the way or what you want to know clearly and it will happen, maybe not immediately, but it will come. By the way, does the aserejé still sound in your car?

    *I'll see your answer to the night now I go to the field to catch snails I love in tomato sauce.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I haven’t met my subconscious yet, and I don't think it wants to meet me. I’ll try.

    Aserejé still lives in my car

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Salento,

    It's telling you what you already know. As far as modern populations go, you're Southern Italian.

    The further back you go in time the muddier it will get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Salento,

    It's telling you what you already know. As far as modern populations go, you're Southern Italian.

    The further back you go in time the muddier it will get.
    Thanks Angela, :)

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