Politics The left's historical amnesia about communism

[Northener]

yes, it is all history

but the memory is not the same
communism made many more victims than nazism of fascism worldwide

I condemn the extreme right equally as the extreme left, quantification doesn't make the difference in this respect.....

 

[Northener]

In the case of fascism and communism, both appealed to the masses who felt that parliamentary democracy had failed them. Both promised prosperity. Fascism didn't disturb the class system as much, although there were the butchers who rose to the heights of society, and communism promised total equality not only of opportunity but of results; fascism encouraged nationalism while communism idealized an international comintern; the Nazi version of fascism glorified "racism" and race hatred, and communism boasted that there were no more distinctions.

The reality?
Fascism delivered more prosperity than communism. There was no equality under communism either: there was indeed an upper class, based on position within the party. Under fascism, the old class structure remained more or less intact, but the lower classes also became more prosperous. Communism remained nationalistic no matter what was proclaimed. Was Russia anything other than nationalistic? Was China? They were out for themselves. Ask Eastern Europeans. Yes, they put East German Communists at the helm in East Germany, but that didn't stop them from stripping the area bare and sending it all to Russia. No, communism didn't create special camps for Jews or gypsies, but they were still discriminated against, and increasingly as time went on, leading to a mass exodus. Plus, what would someone call the actions against Kazakhs, the Ukrainian peasant farmers and on and on. They weren't a holocaust?

How many were killed under each system? Probably more under Communism, if for no other reason than that it spread further. I don't think it has to do with whether one system or another is inherently more "evil".

People blind themselves according to their own ideology, usually, when looking at history.

Someone said, I can't remember who: Communism, great idea, wrong species. Fascism is by no means a good idea in my opinion, either.

Right now in the U.S. we're seeing a fascism of the left emerging that is much more numerous and dangerous imo, because it is espoused by the more educated and elite. Sometimes I just want to shake them, and take them to Cuba, and Venezuela, and ask: This is what you want????

Fascism as Communism try to close the 'open space in politics' (Claude Lefort). IMO they resemble each other, no free spirit, no room for deviant opinions.

See Albright (didn't read it yet only articles about in the papers) about the real dangers of a kind of authoritarianism in the US....not from the left (that's pathetic Angela, you mis really that big elephant in the room):
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/20/books/review/fascism-a-warning-madeleine-albright.html

 

[Angela]

^^Keep it civil, as I treated you, or you'll just prove, as some of our other posters do, that the left is incapable of discussing issues in a rational manner and has to always demonize everyone else.

For the record, I didn't vote for your "elephant" in the room, but I didn't vote for the phony crook either.

So don't go making your vast assumptions and generalizations.

If you can't even post about political philosophy without insulting someone else, don't post about it at all.

 

[Northener]

^^Keep it civil, as I treated you, or you'll just prove, as some of our other posters do, that the left is incapable of discussing issues in a rational manner and has to always demonize everyone else.

For the record, I didn't vote for your "elephant" in the room, but I didn't vote for the phony crook either.

So don't go making your vast assumptions and generalizations.

If you can't even post about political philosophy without insulting someone else, don't post about it at all.

To be honest: you made a vast assumption and generalization in the first place Angela:

Rght now in the U.S. we're seeing a fascism of the left

When you use such big words about the left (without any add or illustration) then be no surprised that someone points at the real powers that be....

And see Albright I'm not the only one.

 

[Angela]

To be honest: you made a vast assumption and generalization in the first place Angela:



When you use such big words about the left (without any add or illustration) then be no surprised that someone points at the real powers that be....

And see Albright I'm not the only one.

Northener,

What is going on at colleges and universities is a disgrace. Far left students are imposing their own version of Mao's cultural revolution, while the administrations cower and buckle, preventing certain speakers from coming to campus, firing or at least censuring professors for expressing opinions that might "trigger" the feeling of some of the students, prohibiting "microaggressions" and on and on.

Good grief, staging protests, closing down classes over Halloween costumes doesn't seem bizarre to you? It used to be limited to the humanities, but now they're going after people like geneticists.

Are you unaware of it?

Does this not give you pause?

Or look what is going on in the news every day. Person after person publicly shamed for comments made thirty, forty, years ago. It's madness, imo.

Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?

If it's ok with you, so be it, but it isn't ok with me.

 

[bicicleur 2]

^^That was unnecessary. The same point could have been made without being so condescending.

there is no point, I wasn't talking about bigger or more as LeBrok suggests
I just said that in memory the crimes of communism seem to be forgiven as opposed to nazism or fascism
my point was made in my first sentence

 

[Yetos]

I guess, all of us have to make a trip.

some say Cuba or Venezuela,
Some would say the Nazi camps,
Some would say the Stalin's Gulang
Some would say Korea and its civil war
I could also say Greece and its 5 year civil war
Hemingway could say Spain before WW2

BUT I THINK WE MUST ALL MAKE A TRIP AND LIVE 1 MONTH
EITHER TO CHINA, to see the biggest helper of today Capitalism, is a Communistic country
EITHER TO INDIA, to see the future of people who own money, and sell their kidneys.

JUST THINK THIS,
it ok to lend a country, by a signature of an opportunist minister, after all its 'free economy'
But we strangely destroy social structures, and lifes, and make people own money they never get,
so we drive them to the lndia model,
or we press the state to become China,


I Think we should all visit outside Peijing to realize (the biggest helper of global Capitals, the biggest producer)
I Think we should all visit Calcuta streets to realize
I think we must visit Favella on what is called improved economy
Even the squares outside Cape town

Believe me, many of them are more huppy, than a man in NY or London stock exchange,

I still agree, that Stalin's gulangs and policy is crime.

Oh not forget to visit also Franfurt, London NY etc stock exchange.

 

[matty74]

"Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?"

AOC seems to be a product of her generation and I thinks she believes she's doing what her constituency wants her to do. Who knows? Her world view is somewhat narrow and she didn't grow up in the Bronx, but Westchester County, NY, which is much more affluent. The younger generations seem to be more open to larger governments and socialistic programs because they're not used to being self-reliant like past generations.

 

[Northener]

Northener,

What is going on at colleges and universities is a disgrace. Far left students are imposing their own version of Mao's cultural revolution, while the administrations cower and buckle, preventing certain speakers from coming to campus, firing or at least censuring professors for expressing opinions that might "trigger" the feeling of some of the students, prohibiting "microaggressions" and on and on.

Good grief, staging protests, closing down classes over Halloween costumes doesn't seem bizarre to you? It used to be limited to the humanities, but now they're going after people like geneticists.

Are you unaware of it?

Does this not give you pause?

Or look what is going on in the news every day. Person after person publicly shamed for comments made thirty, forty, years ago. It's madness, imo.

Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?

If it's ok with you, so be it, but it isn't ok with me.

The only thing I’m trying to say is don’t look only to one side.

But this is obviously what is going on in the US. Polarization. Trenches.

Sorry I ‘m not really into that.

And for the rest as a moderate left I stay for social fairness and free speech. Nothing to do with fascism and it doesn’t deserve that label.


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

 

[Northener]

"Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?"

AOC seems to be a product of her generation and I thinks she believes she's doing what her constituency wants her to do. Who knows? Her world view is somewhat narrow and she didn't grow up in the Bronx, but Westchester County, NY, which is much more affluent. The younger generations seem to be more open to larger governments and socialistic programs because they're not used to being self-reliant like past generations.

That's subjective. An alternative verson could be that younger generations are past the paradigm of: “Government is not a solution to our problem government is the problem.” (dixit Reagan)

 

[Northener]

Northener,

What is going on at colleges and universities is a disgrace. Far left students are imposing their own version of Mao's cultural revolution, while the administrations cower and buckle, preventing certain speakers from coming to campus, firing or at least censuring professors for expressing opinions that might "trigger" the feeling of some of the students, prohibiting "microaggressions" and on and on.

Good grief, staging protests, closing down classes over Halloween costumes doesn't seem bizarre to you? It used to be limited to the humanities, but now they're going after people like geneticists.

Are you unaware of it?

Does this not give you pause?

Or look what is going on in the news every day. Person after person publicly shamed for comments made thirty, forty, years ago. It's madness, imo.

Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?

If it's ok with you, so be it, but it isn't ok with me.

And about AOC yes I have read a background article about her in the paper. She describes herself as a democratic socialist. That comes close to my position indeed. And this is EUpedia isn’t it? In the EU are social democrats not so excotic like in the US, well they tend to become exotic but that has another reason (ironic meant). In the period after ww2 they were in NW Europe one of the pillars of the democratic welfare societies.....


Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

 

[Angela]

"Are you really comfortable with people like AOC trying to set the agenda for the Democratic Party? You think her proposals make any kind of sense at all?"

AOC seems to be a product of her generation and I thinks she believes she's doing what her constituency wants her to do. Who knows? Her world view is somewhat narrow and she didn't grow up in the Bronx, but Westchester County, NY, which is much more affluent. The younger generations seem to be more open to larger governments and socialistic programs because they're not used to being self-reliant like past generations.

A lot of it is indoctrination on college campuses. Some of the rest is just colored by resentment because of the African American experience (and that of admixed people), which I do appreciate btw.

What she and the rest of them need is a visit to Cuba and Venezuela.

Nobody wants fascism anymore, or at least only the lunatic fringe, so no point going back in time to that, Yetos.

 

[Northener]

A lot of it is indoctrination on college campuses. Some of the rest is just colored by resentment because of the African American experience (and that of admixed people), which I do appreciate btw.

What she and the rest of them need is a visit to Cuba and Venezuela.

Nobody wants fascism anymore, or at least only the lunatic fringe, so no point going back in time to that, Yetos.

I would advice her to to the social democratic influenced countries, choose one from the top five:
http://digg.com/2019/happiest-countries-world-ranked

And that’s not Venezuela and Cuba nothing to do with social democracy.....



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[Angela]

I would advice her to to the social democratic influenced countries, choose one from the top five:
http://digg.com/2019/happiest-countries-world-ranked

And that’s not Venezuela and Cuba nothing to do with social democracy.....



Sent from my iPad using Eupedia Forum

I shouldn't have brought her up. I forgot for a moment you're not American.

She is "not" a social democrat European style.

 

[Northener]

I shouldn't have brought her up. I forgot for a moment you're not American.

She is "not" a social democrat European style.

Not Im certainly not American, although I like to be informed about the US. In the Netherlands the US is info about the US (in the news magazines etc) widespread. Also in matters of politics.
No, I'm from the social democratic heartland of the Netherlands. In my hometown more than 50% voted social democratic, my grandfather was a local labour leader. A quite sober person.
I always liked the German chancellor Helmut Schmidt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6HzHEINd28
But the social democrats are in the decline, the old labour parts go to more left or especially right populist parties. The more higher educated to the Greens or social liberals. I consider this a loss because this leads to 'bubbles' I like broad parties.

 

[Northener]

I shouldn't have brought her up. I forgot for a moment you're not American.

She is "not" a social democrat European style.

But don't underestimate my opinions I guess they are still off road the US

I agree (and also some kind of enjoyed) when the young historian Rutger Bregman talks in the 'the Lion's cave' Davos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paaen3b44XY

He hit the nail here IMO.

 

[Jovialis]

It seems the left has amnesia even about more current events that happened less than a year ago.

Ironic how they use the cliché 1984 novel and "doublethink" as a rhetorical device. When clearly they have a religious fervor for an inversion of reality on many topics.

 

[Angela]

It seems the left has amnesia even about more current events that happened less than a year ago.

Ironic how they use the cliché 1984 novel and "doublethink" as a rhetorical device. When clearly they have a religious fervor for an inversion of reality on many topics.

I went to university when reading Marx and Lenin and Che Guevara was still a "thing". At least the discussion was honest, though, with the left admitting so many of their ideas stemmed from Marxism, even the most appalling ones.

Nowadays, the education system is either so bad or so biased that if you don't do a lot of reading on your own you have no clue as to the genesis of the ideas being proposed.

I find it amusing, in a way, that people who want twitter to collapse because it might allow free speech on its platform, cite 1984 as a warning symbol.

Found this in my files. Nothing changes. When you want an autocracy, no matter what you call it, this is what you do.

It couldn't be more true; they're still in love with autocracy.

 

[Angela]

It seems the left has amnesia even about more current events that happened less than a year ago.

Ironic how they use the cliché 1984 novel and "doublethink" as a rhetorical device. When clearly they have a religious fervor for an inversion of reality on many topics.

Did you see where Alyssa Milano posted that she turned in her Tesla to buy a Volkswagon because she didn't want to support a Nazi platform.

The ignoramus has/had no clue that Volkswagen was an integral part of Nazi Germany and produced its cars using slave labor.

An old Beetle was my husband's first car and he loved it, but when I read those facts I kept pushing for him to sell it and buy American. The same people were still at the helm into the 60s from what I understand.

 

[Jovialis]

It is almost as their hypocrisy is within and of itself double think. For example, the fact that so many of these celebrities' promoting environmentalist causes, yet flying around on private jets.

The best thing I've seen in the news lately is what is happening with the charlatan Sam Bankman-Fried from FTX. Turns out he didn't give a damn about giving away his wealth as he purported to. Moreover he admitted to using woke ideology to dup these fools out of their money.

With all of these major players being discredited, and if we can get Trump out of the picture (who only serves to fuel the left, and himself), maybe we can finally see the end of Wokeism.