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Thread: Huns, Avars and Hungars

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's associated today with southern Slavs because the more northern Slavs brought it to the southern Balkans.

    The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

    The yDna doesn't necessarily tell you the autosomal signature.
    More northern stay in the north,those that came are in the south.The "original" homeland of this haplogroup from where it spread is yet debated.Cucuteni-tripolye is somewhere in the middle


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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    As far as I know it is not S17250 so we do not know younger subbranch of these samples.
    You have it in the results it is S17250

    All of the samples under I2a L621 are S17250 as far i can see.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    You have it in the results it is S17250

    All of the samples under I2a L621 are S17250 as far i can see.
    Comment on the Serbian portal Poreklo is that S17250 is negative and in Croatian that have x which means it's not that branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.
    Yes, in the paper with Y STRs the Avar N clustered with Buryats, so it'll be Turko-Mongolic N-F4205. ("Genetic insights into the social organization of the Avar period elite in the 7th century AD Carpathian Basin"). In that paper the elite Avars had a very high proportion of East Asian mtDNA even though it was several generations after their arrival. Maybe the elite was relatively endogamous, hence not having that high a genetic impact on the general population?

    Apparently there was an Old Russian phrase "they perished like the Avars" meaning "vanished without a trace". Seems apt.

    The Conqueror N was N-M2019 and N-Z1936(xL1034). The former has a subclade N-PH1612 containing 2 Hungarians on Y Full.

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    All those L621 samples are xS17250, which means that they are negative on it. They have chosen S17250 probably because it's most common branch of CTS10228>Y3120 (they maybe thinked that if there are L621+ samples then they must be Y3120+, so because we have limited number of SNP-s it's better to analyze S17250). I just guess that's the reason.

    The reason why there are no more + and - snp's for other hg's too is because ''
    We selected 168 phylogenetically informative Y chromosome SNP-s 14 defining all major Hg-s and themost frequent Eurasian sub-Hg-s''. So, we have to wait for BAM files been available and to some good guys analyze it.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

    Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.


    The Avar E-V13+ burial is in no way of "lower status", it had silver plate belt (one of only two in the site, most had bronze plate belts), just because the information on the particular burial in this short paper is very low doesn't mean that it doesn't exist elsewhere..

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    This is one study where you dont want your ancient DNA to be found, unless you are Aspurg : P

    Jokes aside, i am really amazed with quality and new horizonts this study opened, it really interprets one of really important North Balkan, Balkan but also European part of history
    Also i see that they uploaded BAM files and we will probably manage to get information about deeper clades.
    This is one very very very large, beautiful and important study!

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    So I2a1 is not a slavic marker. It was spread by Magyars, Bulgars, White Croats and other steppe people. No more turkic theories and slavs out of marshes theories, nice.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Regarding Slavic I2a, researchers of this study say the following:

    "Hg I2a1a2b-L621 was present in 5 Conqueror samples, and a 6th sample form Magyarhomorog (MH/9)most likely also belongs here, as MH/9 is a likely kin of MH/16 (see below). This Hg of European origin is mostprominent in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, especially among Slavic speaking groups. It might have been amajor lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture and it was present in the Baden culture of the CalcholiticCarpathian Basin."


    As we can see there is no Slavic I2a1 haplogroup in Hun, early Avar and mid to late Avar samples. But it appears in Hungarian conqueror samples but also with few looks like joined minority haplogroups that were probably picked up somewhere on their way like J1, J2a, R1b, I1, and so on.


    Slavic marker I2a was most certainly spread with early 7 century arriving Slavs rather then with any of these groups analysed in this study. Even tho with later arrival of Hungarians, there was again brought for sure a nice portion of Slavic groups. I would conclude that Hungarians used Slavs pratially as their allies and warriors in this process but also few other picked up HGs like mentioned above.

    Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides), it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.
    Last edited by Dema; 05-04-19 at 05:08.

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    Researches of this study say this bout E1b-v13, and i agree with them, only that i believe and there are overwhelming facts that E-v13 originated for sure in Europe and not Middle East lol, E-L618 was probably Middle East/N Africa born but even he emigrated to Europe pretty early on in Neolithic as it was found there already multiple times in ancient DNA.

    Only 4800 years TMRCA part of E-v13 then later on spread in IE BA, before that it was smaller European population.


    "The mediterranean haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a-V13 was detected in an Avar (SzK/239) and a Conqueror (K2/6) sample, while this marker was not covered in another sample (K1/13, E1b1b- M215). This Hg originated in the Middle East and migrated to the Balkans and Western Asia during the Bronze Age."

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is one study where you dont want your ancient DNA to be found, unless you are Aspurg : P


    Don't mess with Aspurg : p
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bained View Post
    So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.

    Its not like that, and it was already said in first page that Slavic HGs among Hungarian conquerors can be valuated at around 30%.

    Furthermore read this:

    The genetic profile of the Avar and Conqueror leader groups seems considerably different, as latter groupis distinguished by the significant presence of European Hg-s; I2a1a2b-L621, R1b1a1b1a1a1-U106 and theFinno-Permic N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936 branch. Their Siberian N1a1a1a1a4 subclade also points at different sourcepopulations among ancestors of Yakuts, Evenks and Evens. Nevertheless the east Eurasian R1a subclade,R1a1a1b2a-Z94 seems to be a common element of the Hun, Avar and Conqueror elite. In contrast to Avars, allthree Hun lineages have paralleles among the Conquerors, but strong inferences cannot be drawn due to smallsample size.It is generally accepted that the Hungarian language was brought to the Carpathian Basin by theConquerors. Uralic speaking populations are characterized by a high frequency of Y-Hg N, which have often beeninterpreted as a genetic signal of shared ancestry. Indeed, recently a distinct shared ancestry component of likelySiberian origin was identified at the genomic level in these populations, modern Hungarians being a puzzlingexception36. The Conqueror elite had a significant proportion of N Hgs, 7% of them carrying N1a1a1a1a4-M2118and 10% N1a1a1a1a2-Z1936, both of which are present in Ugric speaking Khantys and Mansis 23. At the sametime none of the examined Conquerors belonged to the L1034 subclade of Z1936, while all of the Khanty Z1936lineages reported in 37 proved to be L1034 which has not been tested in the 23 study. Population genetic data ratherposition the Conqueror elite among Turkic groups, Bashkirs and Volga Tatars, in agreement with contemporaryIt is made available under a CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0 International license.was not peer-reviewed) is the author/funder, who has granted bioRxiv a license to display the preprint in perpetuity.bioRxiv preprint first posted online Apr. 3, 2019; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/597997. The copyright holder for this preprint (which14historical accounts which denominated the Conquerors as “Turks”38. This does not exclude the possibility that theHungarian language could also have been present in the obviously very heterogeneous, probably multiethnicConqueror tribal alliance.

    So i can agree with this, as it was obviously a European alliance of incomers from Carpathian Basin against more Asian like Huno-Avars. Furthermore Slavs were for sure under Hungarian control, no matter that one of leaders was of Slavic origin. Hungarian language prevailing rather then Slavic proves this. The leaders were actually these that originally brought Hungarian language and i guess they would be N1a1a1a1a2 samples that fit into Finno-Ugric branches and possibly one N1a1a1a1a4 sample.


    Finno-Ugric language distribution so some things would be clearer:




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    Quote Originally Posted by bained View Post
    So the leader is I2a1, all except one have dark eyes/hair, all buried with Magyar customs and horses and somehow they are slavs. Funny.
    In De Administrando Imperio it is written that
    Other Croatians remained to Francia(Franks) and are now called White Croats, and they have their own prince, they are subject to Oton, great king of Francia, or Saxony (Saksias), and they are not baptized, they mutually married with Turks(Hungarians) and they are friends with them.
    White Croats certainly mix with Hungarians but it's interesting that branch in that graves are probably former Dinaric north branches or some subclade in I-Y3120 branch.

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

    Makes sense because the mass of people went to the Balkans and they took I-S17250 subclade with them but considering that Croats have little of branch I-Y3120 the question is which direction of migration is in 10. century to Hungary and from where.

    It might be peoples with branch I-Y4460 which would come from the east of Carpathians from direction of Ukraine and if we look at the present situation (YFull) then it would not have been White Croatians because these people(I-Y4460) migrate earlier(2200 ybp) from south Poland to Ukraine and later in the 10. century they return or coming to Hungary.

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y4460/

    The R1a in that graves is a branch which and Croatians has but which subbranch specifically we do not know so we can not assume direction of that migration.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Regarding E1b-v13 haplogroup, as we can see its none existent in Early or Mid Huno-Avar period but it appears in one sample in late period and in one sample in Hungarian conquer period (opposing sides),
    The burial is dated to Mid-Late Avar period. More precisely second half or 3rd quarter of 7th century.. So it is not from the late Avar period (720+) but the Mid period.. That he was a local recruit is a possibility but there are few good reasons why a non-indigenous Eastern V13 might be expected in an Avar burial...

    Besides any find is precious there are hundreds of potential samples to be taken.. In any case I'll have more insight about his likely earlier whereabouts..

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    it would be safe to assume that both samples were recruits into late Avar but also Conqueror sides, probably of Balkan origin.
    E-V13 has been present in Carpathian basin for thousands of years, why should a local V13 be of "Balkan" origin.. Dacians are not geographically "Balkan". Balkan this, Balkan that, Balkan, Balkan... Balkan is an unauthentic term anyway derived from the Ottoman Turkish, so taking so much pride in this term is self-defeating is it not..
    Last edited by Aspurg; 05-04-19 at 19:59.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south
    I2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

    These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ong-East-Slavs

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.
    Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

    Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

    Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture






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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bained View Post
    slavs out of marshes theories
    Kiev Culture's territory was actually just to the east of Pinsk Marshes.

    The marshes themselves were either sparsely populated or uninhabited, but most likely under Slavic control.

    And probably Early Slavs used those areas for fishing, hunting, etc.

    This is how the landscape in this region looks like (it could not support all of the large Proto-Slavic population):






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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    the Slavic I2a marker is Y3120, a subclade of L621 with TMRCA 2.2 ka
    these L621 are Slavic, that is the most parsimonious guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting indeed! I am still amazed that the Byzantine Empire lasted 1000+ years, what with all the palace intrigue, the poisonings, the army uprisings not to mention all the invaders.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    At first: The horseman tribe-alliances from the steppe never came from a single root. The whole alliance was wearing the name of the core tribe or clan. The leading layer of the joined and defeated peoples identified themselves with the core. After the hun core crossed the Volga and defeat the alans, the alans riding with the huns against the eastern germans. Not only ostrogoths, there were the rugians, heruls, skirii, gepids, quadii too. After defeating Ermanarik, these peoples became the most loyal allies of the huns. Most than half of the huns army were germanic. They called Attila the last great Hun leader. It is a german name, not a hun. In the Era of the Hunnic Empire, the leaders of the vassal tribes called themselves huns. So among the hun elite, were so many eastern germanic and eastern european Y haplogroup.

    Avars. Original form in Byzantian annales: Uarchonites. (Old hungarian name of the avars: varkun or várkony) It was a mixed nation from the beginning. Uars from Inner Asia and Chons (huns, heftalites?) from Central Asia. In the Avar Khaganate, if a slavic or gepid, or a bolgarian turkish chief got a belt, he became avar. He and his offspring. They dressed and buried like the avars.

    Magyars. It was originally just only one tribe's name from the conquering seven(or ten). These tribes had a blood contract with each other, before the campaign. Why? To become brothers. Why? Because they were not related to each other. They were completely different roots. There were also Finnugrian, Central-Asian and eastern-european bloodlines among them. Like today. There are certainly many later slavic, germanic and romanian elements merged with the hungarians, but the core remaining the IX. century population descendants. If not, how can be exist in today a non indo-european language as an island in the middle of the indo-european ocean? So I'm sure, among the conquering magyars were hun fragments, and germans (remaining fragments from the steppe and varangians from Scandinavia), and eastern slavs and God knows what else.

    My results. I have identified the Y haplogroup of 15 families. 11 my own ancestors and 4 my wife ancestors. They all came from the northeastern part of old Hungary. (Szabolcs, Szatmár, Zemplén, Sáros, Szepes and Gömör county) Today: Szabolcs-Szatmar county in Hungary, Satu Mare county in Romania, Presov and Kosice region in Eastern Slovakia. The turkish armies has never been to this area, and the mongolian destruction was not as large as in the middle of the country (Alföld). So the results:
    1.) E1b1b-V13-CTS9320-A19238. family name: Küzmös. Origin of the name: unknown, surely non-hungarian
    2.) E1b1b-V13-Z5018 (not completed yet). f.n: Szánthó. hungarian name
    3.) I1-L22-FGC14412* fn: Szilágyi, hungarian name
    4.) I2a-L621-A1328* fn: Tóth - hungarian name, but it means in the old hungarian language: slavic man
    5.) I2a-L621-Y3118* fn: Kiss - hungarian name
    6.) I2a-L621-Y3118 (not completed yet). fn: Molnár -hungarian name
    7.) Q-L330-BZ427 fn: Csehely, origin of the name: unknown, in hungarian it means nothing. According to Maciamo, this bloodline is hunnic. But I think: alan.
    8.) R1b-U106-DF98-S22116 fn: Dobi, hungarian name
    9.) R1b-U106-L48-S21728 (not completed yet) fn: Varga, hungarian name
    10.) R1b-U152-Z49-S8172* fn: Béres, hungarian name
    11.) R1a-L664-S2866* fn: Simon, hungarian name
    12.) R1a-M458-YP415 fn: Kalenyák (originally Kalinyak) slavic name, probably rusin.
    13.) R1a-CTS1211-YP4706 fn: Küzmös, origin of the name unknown.
    14.) R1a-CTS1211-YP1701* fn: Petruska, slavic name, rusin or slovakian
    15.) R1a-CTS1211-YP234* fn: Király, hungarian name

    Just 2/15 bear slavic name, and these two from my ancestors has slavic Y DNA. They will surely melt later.

    Among the hungarians the family names were formed in the 1400s. So the other 13/15 (including the other slavic, germanic, celtic Y chr bearers) were hungarians before the ottoman wars.

  22. #47
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    Dibran's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-L1029*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2*-146+

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

    Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.
    Yup. People like to still ignore it though. There’s a shotgun call for M458 in supplementary data, though idk if it was a commoner or elite.

  23. #48
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    Tutkun Arnaut's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2a(m223)(L801)

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Very interesting indeed! I am still amazed that the Byzantine Empire lasted 1000+ years, what with all the palace intrigue, the poisonings, the army uprisings not to mention all the invaders.
    Byzantine was way of thinking, it was not a new beginning. It was not kept by force most of its existence! Mostly reflected the Roman traditions of doing things. Eastern Christianity was the propaganda of the time and it was not easy to change the habits of populations no mater who was running the business. Had Ottomans not interrupted its existence probably we would have emerged in a single state.

  24. #49
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    Country: Yugoslavia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I2a-L621 is very common among Belarusians (especially Southern), Western Russians and Ukrainians.

    These are hardly "south" Slavs. Check my old thread:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ong-East-Slavs



    Not really, the Cucuteni-Trypolye had typical Neolithic haplogroups such as G2a and E1b.

    Mesolithic Y lineages probably survived further north - in Pripet Marshes - or further east.

    Proto-Slavic homeland was probably this archaeological culture (I added locations of modern cities in this region):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture





    Here it is



    It's highest diversity is probably Carpathians-Dnieper/

    Utevska (2017) found the haplogroups STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster.
    Highest diversity does not overlap with Kiev culture that much but more with Chernyakov on that map.

    The areas you mentioned was theory held by Ken Nordvedt.
    Also among West Slavs Poland for example it's percentage are much smaller.

  25. #50
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y81971; R1a-YP415;
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H16f

    Ethnic group
    hungarian, ruthenian, celtic, proto-german, scandinavian
    Country: Hungary



    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/415760v2

    Hmmm...according this, my Q-BZ427 ancestorswere direct paternal line descendants of the Great Khagan Bayan? I have the contact the authors.
    The BigY700 test from this bloodline finished just two weeks ago. The YFULL analysis project has not been completed yet.

    According the annales from Byzantine, Bayan had many children....hmmmmm (again)......

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