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Thread: Huns, Avars and Hungars

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    Huns, Avars and Hungars

    Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian nomadic groups arrived into the Carpathian Basin from the
    Eurasian Steppes and significantly influenced its political and ethnical landscape. In order to shed light on the
    genetic affinity of above groups we have determined Y chromosomal haplogroups and autosomal loci, from 49
    individuals, supposed to represent military leaders. Haplogroups from the Hun-age are consistent with Xiongnu
    ancestry of European Huns. Most of the Avar-age individuals carry east Eurasian Y haplogroups typical for
    modern north-eastern Siberian and Buryat populations and their autosomal loci indicate mostly unmixed Asian
    characteristics. In contrast the conquering Hungarians seem to be a recently assembled population incorporating
    pure European, Asian and admixed components. Their heterogeneous paternal and maternal lineages indicate
    similar phylogeographic origin of males and females, derived from Central-Inner Asian and European Pontic
    Steppe sources. Composition of conquering Hungarian paternal lineages is very similar to that of Baskhirs,
    supporting historical sources that report identity of the two groups.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

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    Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Nice that they finally concluded that European Huns are similar genetically to Xiongnus. This can be an open door for further hypothesis. But on their Hun samples they have an U106 individual, wich seems to lead way more to Goths and not ethnic Huns.
    yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

    the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
    some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire

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    Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

    Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

    Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, it seems they incorporated some Goths from the Pontic steppe

    the Huns seem to have divided the Germanic tribes
    some allied with the Huns, others with the Roman Empire
    Wich makes sense if we follow history no? Ostrogoths allied with Huns and Visigoths going their own way in the Empire.

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    The preponderance of U106 in Central Europe and Z2124 ( Z93 ). Quite confirms us what history always told. Even tho, i'm impressed by the number of U106 in those samples.

    Btw: KeF2/1025Kenézlő-Fazekaszug II/1025895-mid Xth c.M269 (xM412, xU106)L23R1b1a1b ?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Interesting that the Magyars were your average Carpathian-Steppic population. The highest status individual was I2a-L621.

    Quite dark inferred pigmentation by modern standards throughout, and a very pre-modern mtDNA pool.

    Avar Y-DNA is Turkic-Siberian or Eskimo-Chukchi - I'm guessing the former.
    What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

    Also this individual...

    K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

    Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I1, I2a, J1 & J2a, huns, wow
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What are the odds that the Q1a2 Hun individual was Dark Skinned, really?

    Also this individual...

    K2/51N1a1a1a1a4U4d2brown/0,99dark/black0,99/0,86dark/0,641100% EU100% EU

    Those are crazy make-up and it was only a thousand years ago.

    Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

    The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

    K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-East...94613337290629

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    V13 stronk!!!
    In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.

    But in the Early Avar period
    MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

    Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

    And in the Middle late Avar period
    SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő

    Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
    239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

    Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).



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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    V13 stronk!!!
    In Conqueror period samples one V13+ and one predicted V13+ were found.

    But in the Early Avar period
    MM/227 and DK/701 are R-Z94+, predicted Z2124 under which is S23592 and ofc S10438 found in Bashkir Yurmati.

    Leader of Avar siege of Constantinople in 626 was Ermitz (Ermi-Karmin - Karmirhyon - the Red Huns)

    And in the Middle late Avar period
    SzK/239 E1b1b1a1b1a V13+.. Székkutas-Kápolnadülő

    Though on rudimentary autosomal plot he's EU, the anthropological analysis says:
    239 fragmented skull with Mongolid features

    Maybe he's of a certain clan of Ermi? With something under E-Z17107, as my cousins on the Balkans match the spread of Ermi/Yarmen onomastical traces, and ofc two R-S10438 are found in Bulgaria and Macedonia, as is one found in Zagreb (indicating Avar connection again).


    Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.

    Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Looks like 1/3 of the Early Magyar men were of Slavic origin, 10/29 (34,5%) of Y-DNA is Slavic R1a-CTS1211 and I2a(xS17250).

    Some excerpts:

    "The West Eurasian R1a1a1b1a2b-CTS1211 subclade of R1a is most frequent in Eastern Europe especially among Slavic people. This Hg was detected just in the Conqueror group (K2/18, K2/41 and K1/10). Though CTS1211 was not covered in K2/36 but it may also belong to this sub-branch of Z283."

    Avar subjects:

    "This Avar population buried the deceased in catacomb graves, following Eastern European traditions. One sample in our dataset (HC9) comes from this population, and both his mtDNA (T1a1b) and Y chromosome (R1a) support Eastern European connections."

    Autosomal DNA:

    "All Hun age individuals revealed admixture derived from European and East Asian ancestors, while 8/15 Avar age individuals showed predominantly East Asian origin with both methods, 4 individuals were definitely European, while two showed evidence of admixture. The KFP/31 sample gave contradicting results due to low coverage. Conqueror samples from the Magyarhomorog (MH) and Sárrétudvari (SH) cemeteries showed mostly European ancestry in agreement with their phenotypes and Y Hg-s, though MLR detected a significant east Asian ancestry component and the SH/103 woman was classified East Asian despite her blond hair. The Karos (K) and Kenézlő(KEF) populations were profoundly admixed, comprising individuals of purely East Asian, European and mixed origin in nearly identical proportions, again in agreement with results obtained from uniparental and phenotypic markers."

    Conqueror period:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

    R1a-CTS1211
    Karos I/10
    Karos II/36
    Karos II/41
    Karos II/18

    I2a(xS17250)
    Karos II/16
    Karos II/52
    Karos III/1
    Magyarhomorog/15
    Magyarhomorog/16
    Magyarhomorog/9

    Phenotypes, pigmentation (from Table 2. and Table 3. in the study):



    Summary of anthropological data:




    Y-DNA haplogroups by time period (from Table 1. in the study):

    There is some R1b-U106 as well:


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    I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

    All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../49.449/30.072

    I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: H5a
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

    I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: H1b
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

    I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: T2b
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.
    I don't know, considering there was a lot of R1a / I2a and R1b-U106 / I1 already in the Conqueror period.

    See the tables posted above, there was R1b-U106 and I1 long before any Medieval German "Ostsiedlung".

    Guess you mean Germanic tribes in general, not just Germans. But some of that U106 was Asian-admixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post

    Balkan/Germanic/Avar Y-DNA seems to be associated with low status in the Magyar sample - probably indigenous. I2a/R1a were the big guys.
    Might be, haven't looked at them closely yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Same for the Avar sample. Eastern Y-DNA is associated with status.
    It is still a legit Avar burial (with horse harness) with a much higher status than any numerous non-Avar people around.

    The glorious Khagan was N1a1a.. Good to see one likely G-L293..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Hmm, seems to be a lot of N1a in the conquering period, fitting with the Uralic origin...seems to lend credence to my theory that modern Hungarians are very much Magyarized Germans and Slavs due to the decimations of the Pannonian populations during the Mongol invasions and later the Ottoman invasions.
    How did you come to this conclusion? The richest graves are I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I don't know why do the authors claim that I2a is Cucuteni-Trypillian?

    All of the Cucuteni-Trypillian samples so far were G2a and E, not I2a:

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map.../49.449/30.072

    I1926 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: H5a
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a

    I1927 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: H1b
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1

    I2110 Trypillian Ukraine
    mtDNA: T2b
    Y-DNA: G2a2b2a
    Neither do I.

    Btw, AFAIK, I1927 (the Trypillia outlier), for some reason I don't know, was eliminated from the table in the original study.
    We have now:
    I1926 G2a2b2a / H5a
    I2110 G2a2b2a / T2b
    I2111 G2a / HV
    I3151 E / U8b1b

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Not sure, I generally think it's possible that these are recent arrivers from the steppe who haven't been affected by the shift towards depigmentation seen in Europe. K2/51 however is likely an Avar in a low status grave. Looks like they were subdued. The idea of Magyars as a small conquering elite seems to have been wrong.

    The extremely high status of I2a Magyars might explain how it became dominant among some Slavs.

    K2/52 in the flesh: https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-East...94613337290629
    They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    They say their skin was Dark, and Steppe had already the snp's found in modern europeans 3000 prior of those samples. Something dont match.
    No, not if by steppe you mean Yamnaya and Catacomb. They were probably darker than any modern Europeans. Re-read the Mathiesen and particularly the Sandra Wilde paper.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

    If you're talking about the Andronovo types, they, as Markod indicated, probably picked up the lighter pigmentation in eastern Europe.

    Plus, the Avars are mostly East Asian, and the Huns Eurasians. They're not going to have all of the European specific alleles for de-pigmentation. It's unclear whether East Asians at that time had high levels of their own different skin pigmentation snp.


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    The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south,also there is no any Slavic haplogroups among Avars,and so much connection between Avars and Sclaveni was told by historians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's associated today with southern Slavs because the more northern Slavs brought it to the southern Balkans.

    The original bearers of it were probably from Cucteni-Tripolye.

    The yDna doesn't necessarily tell you the autosomal signature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, not if by steppe you mean Yamnaya and Catacomb. They were probably darker than any modern Europeans. Re-read the Mathiesen and particularly the Sandra Wilde paper.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3977302/

    If you're talking about the Andronovo types, they, as Markod indicated, probably picked up the lighter pigmentation in eastern Europe.

    Plus, the Avars are mostly East Asian, and the Huns Eurasians. They're not going to have all of the European specific alleles for de-pigmentation. It's unclear whether East Asians at that time had high levels of their own different skin pigmentation snp.
    No but i can clearly imagine Yamnaya people being half-Olive skin that tan a lot in the summer. But when i read " Dark Skin ", my mind goes with Dark Skin. So i'm question what does Dark Skin mean at this point? It was only 1'200 years ago, Europe was probably not that different as right now. So what in a modern perspective could those " Dark Skin " be? East Asians are not Dark Skinned, and if we consider Native Americans as Dark Skinned, this is a huge change on the perception. Knowing a lot of East Asians and Native Americans do have Pheomelanin, such as Natives Reddish Cheeks. The Sandra Wilde paper is too old at this point, we need modern humans with snps that match the ones of ancient types, to make us a phenotype idea of how it evolves and what it looks like from a modern perspective. Most of their samples got " Intermediate " wich for me sounds like Olive Skin, something very rarely seen in Europe nowadays, with only a minority of individuals from italy or iberia. Does it sounds right that the skin of central european only a thousand years ago would look like a northern indian? I think this study shows me that what geneticians considered genes or more specifically SNPS for Dark or Light skin are not quite the exact synergy wich gives Light skin in facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    The leader of the Hungarian conquerors was I2a L621 (S17250) associated with Slavs mostly south,also there is no any Slavic haplogroups among Avars,and so much connection between Avars and Sclaveni was told by historians.
    As far as I know it is not S17250 so we do not know younger subbranch of these samples.

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    Some things I find worth discussing considering this and the other studies about Huns and Hungarian conquerors:

    1) Don't you find it a bit strange that these powerful peoples, mainly Huns and Avars, who apparently migrated en masse left such a tiny, almost nonexistant impact in the Y-DNA distribution of Eastern Europe, especially the Carpathian basin? Were they perhaps soooooo warlike and dedicated to warfare that that ended up becoming a huge reproductive/selective disadvantage for them and their lineages dwindled more and more along the time due to a much higher than average young death of their males? I assume that, given the nature of their conquest, there were many more males than females, so the negligible Mt-DNA impact could be explained that way even if the females were not dedicated to war. Or is it just that the subsequent "local" waves of conquest and expansion, like that of Slavs and Germans, wiped out physically most of the Avar and Hun descendants?

    2) It's very nice to see ancient DNA confirming what linguists and historians had already assumed as likely, i.e. the connection between Huns and the Xiongnu. However, I was really convinced by the linguistics paper I have read about the Xiongnu having originally a Yeniseian language at least as their main lingua franca, considering the few evidences provided by loanwards and transcriptions of "Xiongnu language" in ancient Chinese sources, as well as possible borrowings in Turkic and Mongolic languages that can be reasonably explained via Yeniseian roots. Therefore, that would mean that, as it also happened later (for example, the way Turkic Kazkahs prevailed during the Mongol rule), a subset of the Xiongnu tribal confederation was probably Turkic and took advantage of the Xiongnu expansion and power to eventually establish its own Turkic-centered confederations (or at least confederations using Turkic as their official lingua franca), which would send waves after waves of conquering armies and accompanying migrants from the Late Antiquity to the High Middle Ages. This "flexible" and "assimilationist" ethnogenesis would also perfectly explain why the Turkic peoples are so varied genetically (some of them overwhelmingly West Asian, others overwhelmingly Northeastern European, others overwhelmingly Northeastern Asian and so on). (Personally I believe that the Huns and Avars represent the arrival of Oghur Turkic people, the only remnants of which today are the Chuvash - but in the past there were the Bulgars, Khazars and maybe the Cumans -, because only much later we do see strong evidences of Oghuz Turks arriving in Europe)

    3) The Huns and Avars, being much earlier than the Hungarians, are possibly representative of the very first, still quite unmixed new waves of expansion from the Eurasian steppe, at least west of the Altai. Therefore, they could perhaps be related to the actual source of the Turkic languages (or at least of their expansion) before the formation of huge tribal confederations and concomitant widespread admixture from all sides that would result in much more "West Eurasian-like" Turkic samples in the later medieval era. Hungarians might thus represent a much later period when such big, flexible, readly assembled and disintegrated multiethnic confederations, prone to rapid language shift, too, had become much more "natural" in the steppe landscape, and with the East-West encounter much more consolidated, with a much more mixed population.

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