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Thread: Real Spain´s nordids (for those that keep posting the wrong ones).

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    Real Spain´s nordids (for those that keep posting the wrong ones).



    If the visigoths did not have any input (according to some ignorants) in the genetic pool of Spain, why these fully Spaniards exist even in the S.XXI with that "perfect" nordid perfection?? And they are from television, so imagine the amount of unknown nordids that exist in many areas of Spain (obviously a minority but in hundred of thousands):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC8JIrkNUKs

    (the video it is not mine). If you change the name of many of them to Sven Johanssen or Ida Svettdotirr they will pass in Scandinavia many of them. In fact, there are many scandinavians that look less nordid than them. Just consider the amount of Spaniards that carry these recessive genes and they are brown haired -brown eyed. And just imagine the amount of nordids in the last centuries during generations to produce even today these good example of nordids or germanics.

    Anyways, which one is the most nordid looking one?

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    Fair hairs and eyes and skin are not the most important criteria to judge of the 'nordic' heritage - but yes, a lot of the people I saw on your You Tube link evocate clearly something "northern", even when it was not pure 'nordic' concerning bones - I cannot give you my amateur thoughts about the "purest" ones based on this "stopless" video, helas!
    People who know Spanyards know that a signicative if not heavy input of these 'nordic' types exists in Spain, more than in Portugal - I think they did not came all of them only at the Wisigoths times; Celts, spite very mixed, send surely some of these types and the elements which compose it, broken up and re-aggregated in some individuals - The depigmentation in Iberia seems more having a Central-North and North-East source followed by kind of a spillage into Castile linked maybe to the Reconquista; if linked only to Wisigoths or Sueves we could wait more blondism in Portugal that we find. BUt we know that before the Great Invasions some sets of tribes moved already from multi-ethnic Belgia and N-W Germany to N-Spain -
    the question is that this 'nordic' type is difficult to isolate as an autosomal coherent group: it was maybe a mix of diverse pops with among them some heavy East EEF input + slighter European HG's input (already a mix even concerning bones so phenotype), and then selection upon this mix tending to produce some homozygoty for visible phenotypes - we can suppose some place for a partial isolation, I see rather in Central and Eastern-Baltic Europe - in Northern Europe of today this idealised type (as all "types") is not alone, but it represented well enough the majority in the ancient Germanics phenotypes spite regional variations of input- it is tightly linked to the Germanics "Invasions" out of their cradle, less evident concerning Celts colonisations - it was surely an element among CWC - as a whole and roughly said, as the historic Germanics influence diminishes this type tends to diminish too, even in Great North (Baltic countries, Estonia, Finland BI) or among northern Slavs - in Britain, it is more common in East than in West (more "Celtic", less 'nordic')- just thoughts written in an hurried way-

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    Arguably with most of those who are actually "pure" Spaniards, and for several I have my doubts on even that, that light pigmentation could trace back to the Bell Beakers (and the La Tene Celts were on the whole very similar to the Bell Beakers, see the Dying Gaul statue). A couple though, yes, I would agree. However this is extreme cherry-picking. It's true however that in Catalonia they are surprisingly light, and that Catalans are the purest Iberians.

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    [QUOTE = ToBeOrNotToBe; 571976] Podría decirse que con la mayoría de los que en realidad son españoles "puros", y para algunos tengo mis dudas, incluso esa pigmentación ligera podría remontarse a los vasos de Bell (y los celtas de La Tene estaban en el todo muy similar a los vasos de campana, ver la estatua del Dalia Galia). Una pareja aunque, sí, estaría de acuerdo. Sin embargo, esto es una gran selección de cerezas. Es cierto, sin embargo, que en Cataluña son sorprendentemente ligeros, y que los catalanes son los íberos más puros. [/ QUOTE]

    I am Spanish and I am not surprised by the surprising lightness of any region of Spain against another. If you have told me that in Zamora people are shorter and darker, but I have not gone to check it. About lightness I see that in any Spanish region there are atypical people who are more clear but I have found people from all over Spain, but in a rough way no particular region has surprised me to see them lighter than others. That is my impression from the field. The most beautiful people I have seen especially Galicia, Valencia, Andalusia, Canary Islands, Madrid to a greater extent than the rest of the regions, more blond people with clear eyes I have seen Andalusia, Valencia and Madrid than northern Spain but the we see completely Spanish or think about it we are more than accustomed. From what I see there are many fantasies about Spain in distant lands.

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    Jaime_

    We have people with that appearance in any family or in any town or on the street you see every day, at least in what I know. In the video come the handsome guys after there are many ugly with those phenotypes as with more Mediterranean and handsome phenotypes of both phenotypes then in the middle plus the cultural factors makes it something completely normal and you know that they are completely Spanish I do not know how to explain it, in definitive that maybe there is something more than you can think outside I think so, but anyway the icon or cliché of how we are and as we are known is with a more Mediterranean or Atlantic image, it is logical and it seems great because it is the image of the majority of Spaniards.

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    two aspects: the mean regional one and the individual ones (in every country, some individuals are more outside the local mean, no surprise); but yes, some spanish regions are "less dark" than others (or were?) -concerning hairs I saw more light and mixed haired people in Catalonya and Asturias than in Galicia, as a whole, spite the legend of lighter Galicians (maybe only around La Corua?)

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    What is clear is that our phenotypes and appearance in general I think they are rather brown hair and brown eyes in their different tones and hazelnut is what I see most after green and blue are also not something exceptional. The skin tone is very homogeneous throughout Spain. As a Spaniard, I can distinguish bronzed or tanned skins in areas where the sun squeezes more than at least, perhaps a foreigner escapes as it comes with more myths and legends than a native; although we also have them on ourselves. In large cities Madrid, Barcelona where there are people from all over Spain is where you realize that at first sight by phenotypes there are no differences between Spaniards. In my home, the atypical brown skinned guy is a green-eyed Galician, the clearest are from Granada, Seville and my mother and sister who are from Cádiz, even a brighter white than the Catalan neighbors. I have been receiving public from all over Spain for 20 years and I can assure you that there is no difference. I have even received more people with clear Andalusian eyes than Catalans, but by far. And I also have the mania inherited from my father to want to know the origin of people and in Catalonia many people hide their origin but I like to know so I had a girl with blue eyes but like a Siberian Husky speaking Catalan e.t.c. and finally it was the father of Almería and the mother of Murcia and the eye color was in Almeria.


    When an Iberian defends a theory is because it is on the ground and knows it is not because of strange or racist issues, lying is absurd.


    Within Spain there are also mythical myths and legends about how we are. For example if there is a red-haired Galician actress who logically is atypical because then the myths jump and try to sell you the motorcycle that is the most normal thing in the world because Galicians are Celts e.t.c. if the red-haired actress is Andalusian, everyone is silent in ethnic or racial exaltation because, as we have the cliché of the 800 years of the Muslim era, silence. And the Andalusians do not sell any motorcycle on ethnical or phenotypic issues.


    Even when I go to buy tobacco and the Marlboro brand makes promotions and has been using Nordic apsexual Spanish hostesses for quite some time they are tall, very pretty, blue eyes, blonde but ignore that the Spanish males who go for tobacco will be revolutionized much more with a brunette Spanish type Ana Belén


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    I really believe that these kind of Spaniards descend from true "nordic" or "germanic" (visigoths, vandals, or swebi) tribes. Those that believe that they descend from the La Tene celts they might probably be wrong since from what I have read (in Spanish), there are some confirmation of celtic groups comming to Spain from the Belgae tribe (which it seems they were non-germanic).

    And most northern Spaniards (as most Spaniards) are brown haired, brown eyed (see Fernando Alonso as a stereotypical Spaniard and he is from Asturias), so I guess that the celts in Spain were like the Fernando Alonso types (brown haired, brown eyed, light skin, pure European in features).

    So, in any case, what makes me more surprised is that after so many centuries of the last tribes came (1500 years ago: visigoths), there are so many "pure" nordid types, so I guess the genetic input of germanics/nordids is always underrated (not that I really care but it is a fact). Just imagine the amount of blond-blue eyed Spaniards during dozens of generations that have existed so these recessive traits are still quite "pure" even in the XXI century.

    I know that there are blond-blue eyed Spaniards that look average Spaniards in their faces, but those in the video, even if they were brown haired-brown eyed, have facial features that are from northern lands, so there must be some SNP´s that have passed through generations for other facial features (nose type, overall face shape, and so on) that look germanic/nordic.

    In fact, from what I have seen it is different in Italy (or even France). Their blond-blue eyed people tend to look Italian (specially the nose) or French, but in the case of Spain, many blond blue eyed look strictly northern European (and with this I don´t want to make Spain "northern", just to show diversity of looks, but just saying this for those that could have some other ideas). Yes, they are a minority, but after so many centuries, why they don´t have the more typical Spanish faces, and they still keep that northern look? The germanic/nordic genetic input in Spain is way underrated, despite been a minority.

    By the way, I have seen some Spaniards in the past that looked extremely nordid (I remember an "old" woman at a help desk that even for Scandinavian standards, she looked extremely nordid and she was pure Spanish as her surnames said).

    In Spain there have not been an inmigration of nordids in the XX century or before (until the visigoths). Some pockets of germans in 3-4 small cities (and most of them died): those that came to Jaen. And recent inmigrants (last 20 years) are basically non-europeans and those from Europe are from Romania basically. So, maybe we see some slavic looking Spaniards in the future, but those in the video are clearly as Spanish as a siesta. Y soy español.

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    By the way, contrary to some opinions, and based on my own experience, the darkest Spaniards are from the Galicia area, probably because of isolation (in the northern corner and surrounded by mountains). Yes, archaeology, history and toponymia say that they have the largest amount of germanic place names and more celtic History, but I guess that those darker types (although purely European faces) are the same like in Ireland or Wales: remanent of the original Europeans (so, less indoeuropean blood and more "old blood" from original Europeans).

    You can see for example "Frank Cuesta" (it is just an example). He is quite dark (although he has been living in Thailandia for 20 years, so it could also point some of his darkness to it), but his facial structure is pure European. He in fact looks like La Braña type (not the eyes colour) and he comes from the same province. But he is a dark type (darker than average) and he is from NW Spain from an isolated area.

    I still believe that those dark types of Spaniards are those that keep the "old European blood" more intact (because of isolation). He probably has a lot of G2a relatives (just a guessing based on little). Ok. I know that some "northern Africa" looking types also exist (I guess not all moriscos were expelled and some remained or maybe another theory: the thousands of moroccoans taken by Franco during the Civil War 80 years ago, and they did many rapes, which it is proven by many historians) but also a minority. But there are dark types with pure European facial structure that probably have less indoeuropean blood than others and that is the reason for their looks (just a guess).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    For the thousanth time, snps for "appearance" are few in number and float "free".

    You can have two siblings, one blonde, blue-eyed, and fair skinned, and the other black haired, brown eyed and olive skinned (my sister in law and my husband), and they have the same ancestry proportions.

    It's called RECOMBINATION, and it's random. That's what happens when you have a population with varied phenotype snps.

    Can we keep with the science, please, and not uninformed speculation?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    May I say this? As for other evualation tools to search origin(s), the pigmentation evaluations requires big enough samples and not personal souvenirs of meetings with friends or other persons. I can assure you that in the 1970's yet, regions of Spain show some differences in pigmentation. The big towns left apart, of course!
    concerning criteria, whatever the % of errors at the margins, I cannot put in the same bag a jet black haired man and a light brown haired one, or even a rather dark brown haired one; all of these hues have their genetic importance, beside the darkening with age which came to puzzle us a bit.
    and in a rather "dark region", counting the light or dark blond hairs is not enough: in Spain it seems they run from 1,5% to 4,0% (even a bit more on Asturias shores? but almost all rather on the 'very light golden brown' side, as among Celts): you have to count the diverse between hues, the brown ones, from light to dark brown (very dark brown is dark for me, put with black or near black, in French "brun"); then you see easier the differences between provinces, and they exist in Spain, more accentuated than in Portugal.
    The darkest regions in Iberia were roughly said in West, South and South-East; it's not a line which cut Iberia in two parts in its center from East to West, separating an ideal North from an ideal South! And it's this which is interesting for history, it's not a climatic fatality.
    I know the old litterature published results made sometimes without too much local sources; by instance, Andalusia is among the darkest haired regions of Spain without this mean could compare to Portugal, but Andalusia is large! I have not had the occasion to verify but it seems some precise places had more often light hairs than the Province mean: Roman troops? Alans? Wisigoths? Flemings? or more simply some hotspots of Reconquista troops? I don't know.
    concerning the scientific approach of hair pigmentation (and eye too, in some way), I 'm still amazed by the mainstream genetic explanations for hair hues: if the dominance rule was effective everytime, why don't we find regions with, say, 50% light + 40% dark + 10% middle, or the opposite? it's very evident that it's when dark hues and light hues are almost at the same levels (20-30% every) that middle hues are at their top, and this even if some criteria differ among studies. Is not this caused by heterozygotous sites, where the dominance dark upon light do'nt play? Just a question... when an accentuated hue dominates statistically (dark or light), we see systematically the opposite diminishing, almost disappearing, when the middle hues have still some weight even if they decrease: can the lone selection make this? I'm sceptical. Why hazard doesn't offer us a 80%/20% "pure" dark and light, almost without middle???
    Pigmentation is not the kee of everything but it helps too to verify some stories on History at a short scale of time (so out fo the selection effects), at least for differenciation among close pops, more than for assimilation of distant pops.

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    @Angela
    OK, recombination. But it does not tell us everything concerning states and global differences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Angela
    OK, recombination. But it does not tell us everything concerning states and global differences.
    The point is that you cannot assume the "ancestral" origins of person X because of their pigmentation or even facial structure.

    As I said, my husband and his sister are full siblings. Their calculator results are totally similar. I know, because I've seen them.

    She is blond, blue-eyed, and fair skinned. He is black haired, brown eyed and olive skinned.

    The people of my father's villages have high proportions of light and red haired and light eyed people. His whole family is fair, and yet their ancestry is totally appropriate to Emilians, not even Bergamo people or people from the Trentino or Friuli.

    So, those rules about certain coloring or certain features being tied to a high percentage of certain ancient people are falsified. They only work, imo, in very homeogeneous populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    For the thousanth time, snps for "appearance" are few in number and float "free".

    You can have two siblings, one blonde, blue-eyed, and fair skinned, and the other black haired, brown eyed and olive skinned (my sister in law and my husband), and they have the same ancestry proportions.

    It's called RECOMBINATION, and it's random. That's what happens when you have a population with varied phenotype snps.

    Can we keep with the science, please, and not uninformed speculation?
    Who said the contrary?

    And I am sure that everything you said in all subforums is absolutely scientific (no doubt). I already said that it is just a guess/a proposal/a theory. Or those that perform scientifical analysis don´t have previous potential theories?

    Así que deja de establecer las normas de lo que la gente puede hablar o no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The point is that you cannot assume the "ancestral" origins of person X because of their pigmentation or even facial structure.

    As I said, my husband and his sister are full siblings. Their calculator results are totally similar. I know, because I've seen them.

    She is blond, blue-eyed, and fair skinned. He is black haired, brown eyed and olive skinned.

    The people of my father's villages have high proportions of light and red haired and light eyed people. His whole family is fair, and yet their ancestry is totally appropriate to Emilians, not even Bergamo people or people from the Trentino or Friuli.

    So, those rules about certain coloring or certain features being tied to a high percentage of certain ancient people are falsified. They only work, imo, in very homeogeneous populations.
    That siblings share a 50% of genetic traits explains what you say. They lose some genetics from their parents, so one of their parents accounts for the "special" looks that still remains in some individuals, ie, they are remanent of the old stock (for example) or aboriginal Europeans. I mean, some people still carry "old SNP´s" (we can see that there are a 8-10% Spaniards with the G2a halopgroup even in the XXI century), but as they have had a lot of recombination for centuries, it is difficult to see more "archaic" types. But, my guess is as recombination in north of Spain has been done basically with the same people (people married in the same area), there is still a common old ancestry in some areas that still exist (and for me it is the dark Spaniards, which are not as most ignorants believe that come from the moorish invasion, but remanents of old Europeans: even Galicians are the ones with more ""north-african"" blood (which in reality I guess it means old archaic blood that happened in all Europe and northern Africa (caucasoid types with very little indoeuropean blood).

    There have been a lot of recombination EXCEPT in isolated areas, that still exist, specially in Spain, which is a big country, 2º most mountainous in Europe, and in an extreme of a continental area. I remember going to one of the most isolated areas of Spain as a tourist (in the middle of the mountains), and it was the first time in my life that I saw Spaniards that looked "strange" and "archaic" (they were a group of old men). I am sure their ancestors were mixing with others from the sorroundings for centuries, so they still have their most deep ancestry less recombined.

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    It's up to Yoyas lol

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    maybe I was not clear enough? I have the feeling some of my arguments don't reach their goal.
    I said states (pr better said: statistical aspect: great numbers prevents from too much hazard and too much individual choices; "balance" effect.
    I don't speak of trying to determine individuals origins here according to their external look (pleonasme?) but of trying to evaluate demic input of eventual newcomers on other pops during history. Phenotypes are of some worth at the collective level, not individual (by the way, phenotype is not only stature, CI and pigmentation, it is also other features, sometimes details, very very numerous; I doubt a Portuguese, a Swede and a Georgian could have a majority of phenotypic traits common between them (it even doesn't occur in the same pop), even if they show some common traits (a lot of people focalizes upon certain aspects more than upon others, as I know you know); but it's true, all these phenotypic traits cannot be studied at an high scale in anthropological studies, it would ask too much time.
    It's why I don't rely too much yet on recent studies made upon too small samples concerning phenotypes, despite they are increasing in number more and more for my great pleasure.

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    Hazard plays a role, but don't give it too much place, when we speak of hundreds of thousands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Hazard plays a role, but don't give it too much place, when we speak of hundreds of thousands.
    "Hundred of thousands" (maybe 1-2 millions) that are blond-blue eyed but 4-5 millions that carry the blond-blue eyes recessive genes (for example Iker Casillas son is blue eyed and it is quite common that in a family there is a blond-blue eyed and then 1-2 average looking Spaniards).

    Today, watching tv, another "viking" Spaniard: Samuel Saiz Alonso (in the first picture he would have done better as a main role in the Vikings series than Ragnar):
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaime__ View Post
    That siblings share a 50% of genetic traits explains what you say. They lose some genetics from their parents, so one of their parents accounts for the "special" looks that still remains in some individuals, ie, they are remanent of the old stock (for example) or aboriginal Europeans. I mean, some people still carry "old SNP´s" (we can see that there are a 8-10% Spaniards with the G2a halopgroup even in the XXI century), but as they have had a lot of recombination for centuries, it is difficult to see more "archaic" types. But, my guess is as recombination in north of Spain has been done basically with the same people (people married in the same area), there is still a common old ancestry in some areas that still exist (and for me it is the dark Spaniards, which are not as most ignorants believe that come from the moorish invasion, but remanents of old Europeans: even Galicians are the ones with more ""north-african"" blood (which in reality I guess it means old archaic blood that happened in all Europe and northern Africa (caucasoid types with very little indoeuropean blood).

    There have been a lot of recombination EXCEPT in isolated areas, that still exist, specially in Spain, which is a big country, 2º most mountainous in Europe, and in an extreme of a continental area. I remember going to one of the most isolated areas of Spain as a tourist (in the middle of the mountains), and it was the first time in my life that I saw Spaniards that looked "strange" and "archaic" (they were a group of old men). I am sure their ancestors were mixing with others from the sorroundings for centuries, so they still have their most deep ancestry less recombined.
    The "aboriginal" Europeans had black hair and dark skin. They did have blue eyes.

    I don't know how often this has to be said.

    If evidence ever emerges to the contrary, I'll be the first to post it and adopt the new, scientific proof.

    I really don't give a you know what which area has more or less of any of these traits. What can it possibly matter in the scale of things to worry about.

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    maybe some 200000 Visigoths arrived amisdt some 4 or 5 Hispanoromans, a genetic admixture is very provable, but as usual with many Spaniards, their own history is only partialy known, in the Reconquista there were a sizeable migration of "Francos" to people recently conquered cities. About Celts... I don't know if they came mainly from the Rhine or Belgium, but I was amazed about the amount of fair eyes and hair in La Mancha and Cantabria regions... but in this case it is unkown the phenotypes of such regions before the migration of the Germanic tribes.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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