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Thread: Ancient Egyptian Phenotype

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    We'll know enough about Egyptian population history within this year to next. What with the upcoming Egyptian paper, the paper with Mesolithic Tunisian samples, research on Pastoral Neolithic, apparently research on Saudi Arabia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandemonian View Post
    Yes, I think this closely reflects the way my own thinking on the subject has changed over the years.

    I never saw Egyptians as "black," but I did think of them as their own sort of "brown," and likely somewhere in between classical Africans and Europeans. However, this doesn't accord with genetic findings. Although there are numerous studies (many of which have been mentioned earlier in the thread) one of my favorite reports was something I found on this very website, and is a major reason why I post here:



    Italians, Greeks, Arabs, and (look closely at the fan-shaped area at the southeastern end of the Mediterranean - that's the Nile Delta) Modern Egyptians derive between 80 and 90% of their ancestry from these Early European Farmers. Although the Copts may have a slightly different proportion, and Ancient Egyptians a different proportion still, what we are looking at is a map tying all of these peoples to common genetic origin.

    In other words, Egyptians, Italians, Greeks, and Arabs were never really very different genetically. Cavalli-Sforza provides F_ST (x 10,000) values for numerous populations, with high values in the 4000's between Mbuti Pygmies and groups like Aboriginal Australians; the distances between Near-Eastern (Egyptian etc.) peoples is:

    Greek: 129
    Iranian: 158
    Italian: 208
    English: 236
    Basque: 246

    For comparison, here are some more pairs:

    Greek x English: 204
    Greek x Italian: 77
    Greek x Iranian: 70
    Italian x English: 51
    Italian x Iranian: 133
    Iranian x English: 197

    Usually, a firm border is drawn across the Mediterranean when ethnic groups are classified. Yet what all of this suggests is that the "European" ethnic group is probably imperfectly described. However powerfully these groups may have diverged culturally, linguistically, and even genetically over the last two millennia, it makes more sense to speak of

    1. A Northern European group, exemplified by the Finns and Balts who derive less than 30% of their ancestry from the Early European Farmers, gradually blending into
    2. A broad Mediterranean group, exemplified by the Sicilians who derive over 90% of their ancestry from this group. Egyptians then would be on the southern edge of this Mediterranean group, genetically olive-skinned, but as Tutkan Arnaut says, "with a darker tone because of the sun."

    What fascinates me especially about this perspective is the way in which it highlights the incredible achievements of this broad "Mediterranean" people - agriculture on the fertile crescent, all the major monotheisms, the earliest literature, all the philosophical, mathematical, and technical inventions of the ancient Occidental world. Even the birth of modern experimental science is ultimately Mediterranean, since almost all of the earliest experimentalists, including

    • Eratosthenes (2nd century BC, possibly early to be called a scientist)
    • Ptolemy (1st century AD)
    • John Philoponus (6th century AD) and
    • Hasan Ibn al-Haytham (10th century AD)

    lived, of all places, in Egypt.
    I agree! Mediterranean people started everything. Mostly at the earliest times were Egyptians and Arabs. Arabs at about 3000 BC had sea going boats. Meantime Chinese that had a bigger civilization had flat bottom boats up to the first century a.d, that were not sea worth. I think Nile Delta was very important because was a fertile land that could support a lot of people. That played a major role in their civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    We'll know enough about Egyptian population history within this year to next. What with the upcoming Egyptian paper, the paper with Mesolithic Tunisian samples, research on Pastoral Neolithic, apparently research on Saudi Arabia.
    Can you tell us anything about those papers right now? You've mentioned them before, but this is the first I'm hearing of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I agree! Mediterranean people started everything.
    Living in the modern world it can be hard to see that - I had no awareness of it until recently.

    Mostly at the earliest times were Egyptians and Arabs. Arabs at about 3000 BC had sea going boats. Meantime Chinese that had a bigger civilization had flat bottom boats up to the first century a.d, that were not sea worth. I think Nile Delta was very important because was a fertile land that could support a lot of people. That played a major role in their civilization.
    Of course (though I might not call the Mesopotamians "Arabs"). The Nile made things incredibly easy because it would flood regularly, rejuvenating the soil. The situation with the Tigris & Euphratis rivers was similar; those areas were dry and free of clouds, yet also marshy, meaning that there was a great abundance of water and sun to grow plants.

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    I did my bachelor in USA schools! They do recognize the contributions of all civilizations! I learned there things about Egyptian, Arabic, Indian civilizations. Not a detailed one but a summary for each one of them. In my country of origin schools concentrate more in European cultures and contributions

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    Up until very recently all U.S. colleges and universities required a year of what was called Western Civilization.

    It's clear from those courses that from farming through the growth of cities, metallurgy, literacy and on and on all began in the Near East, what used to be called "The Fertile Crescent" plus Anatolia. Egypt is often considered part of that, but it was a later development.


    I firmly believe that part of the nonsense we hear today from campus post modernist radicals, the sheer ignorance of their statements, is because many schools dropped that requirement perhaps 10 years ago.

    You can't criticize something about which you know absolutely nothing.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...es_129758.html

    Add India and China at least in terms of the beginnings of civilization if you wish, but TEACH THESE KIDS HISTORY.

    http://www.csun.edu/~rlc31920/docume..._Fall_2011.pdf




    I don't know what Arabs have to do with it in terms of the initial developments. The inhabitants of that region are not "Arab", except perhaps for some groups which arrived with the Muslim invasion.

    Later on, of course, we have Ancient Greece, Rome, the Eastern Roman Empire, the Muslim conservation of many of the source materials etc.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandemonian View Post
    Can you tell us anything about those papers right now? You've mentioned them before, but this is the first I'm hearing of it.
    The Egypt paper (or at least Harvard's ancient DNA lab autosomal DNA from an Early Middle Kingdom mumy) was leaked here:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post565634

    The paper with Tunisian samples was still getting worked on back in 2018:

    https://twitter.com/Cliouch/status/1042807392545779713

    The one on Pastoral Neolithic comes from a seminar with David Reich:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post560920

    The research on Saudi Arabia supposedly refers to what Reich said in a podcast.
    Last edited by Alyan; 02-05-19 at 02:05.

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