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Thread: Mytrueancestry.com

  1. #2576
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    Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I know the feeling about being an orphan Angela. Depending on the samples they have you could be close to different populations.
    The funny part is that if I put the place where I was born on a map, it's close to being just about equidistant from Parma, Genova, and someplace northwest of Florence.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Have you run the individual samples yet and compared it to your Dodecad 12B modern. I think there are like 15 different samples from Apulia in the G25 Individual. I don't know which regions of Puglia they are from. There are 6 samples from Sicily in that same spreadsheet, and again, not sure where they are from other than 3 of West and 3 are East.
    ... not yet, I just ran the Modern Average, ...

    I thought my K36 similarities map was kind of weird, but when compared with the G25 Average sample, it’s actually not that different.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... not yet, I just ran the Modern Average, ...

    I thought my K36 similarities map was kind of weird, but when compared with the G25 Average sample, it’s actually not that different.
    Yeah I thought your similarities map was a bit strange because of the 80's in Lazzio and Cyclades Islands in Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Yeah I thought your similarities map was a bit strange because of the 80's in Lazzio and Cyclades Islands in Greece.
    that map was from a Combined file, below is an original from Ancestry, and it is even closer to the G25 Apulian,

    I picked the first map because imho is a better fit for me, but I could be wrong, and I’m closer to Lazio.



    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Experiment:

    G25-Apulia-sample ... K36-like G25 Model vs my K36 similarity map

    Almost: the Apulia-G25 gets one of my Top 2 places, (Lazio).

    ... somewhat similar, I think.




    my map:
    How did you do this run? When I put Apulia average, something else shows up. If those are your coordinates, then never mind. I could not check them. :)

    Distance to: Italian_Apulia
    0.00762777 Italian_Basilicata
    0.00937691 Italian_Campania
    0.00973705 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01395084 Italian_Molise
    0.01529161 Sicilian_East
    0.01685879 Italian_Calabria
    0.01756746 Greek_Izmir
    0.02022088 Italian_Lazio
    0.02137402 Italian_Marche
    0.02184193 Sicilian_West
    0.02271044 Greek_Crete
    0.02376687 Italian_Umbria
    0.02387513 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02395052 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02443098 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02445695 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02546236 Maltese
    0.02567869 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02674970 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02775236 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03064611 Greek_Kos
    0.03121197 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03275858 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03410245 Italian_Jew
    0.03882988 Albanian



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    La Lunigiana e' al confino di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. However, La Spezia is only partially of Liguria, imo. Other people say it's a region al confine di Liguria, Toscana e Emilia. You can see it by the influence of languages, the food (Ours is so good because we're influenced by all three. :)) even in the houses, the artifacts, and perhaps even the phenotype of the people.

    What has surprised me about the genetics is that I thought the two sets of mountains, as you say, and even the river, which created a bit of a language border (it was even the administrative border of the Romans) would have created a bigger "break" in the genetics, rather than the cline which I think exists. Whether that was always the case because of the ancient road through the mountains from the Parmense to the sea whether for salt, wheat, or pilgrims, or became much more predominant in more recent times, say, in the 1800s, I don't know. There's even a difference in physical appearance, with the upper Lunigiana having one of the higher rates of blondism in Italy, and the coast darker.

    For my father's villages I tend to think they were always different, different even from the residents of Parma itself; drift alone would account for it. Paved roads only went in during the 1920s. (The first settlements were in 900-1000 AD) Before that it was by mule track, and the Bishop's representatives showing up every decade or so in the larger administrative villages, so how much admixing could there have been? Cavalli Sforza had a reason for choosing those villages as the source for his book on genetic drift in Italy.

    Anyway, I took a look at the samples. Since I can't input my own coordinates, having never paid Eurogenes for them, it's not going to tell me much. Plus, I think all he did was use the "Sizzi" samples that are at Vahaduo, where I come out Corsican and then equidistant to all three provinces, so let's say I'm not impressed by the representativeness of the samples. :)

    These are my results from one of the Dodecad at gedmatch:
    # Population (source) Distance
    1 TSI30 (Metspalu) 3.45
    2 Tuscan (HGDP) 5.11
    3 North_Italian (HGDP) 5.58
    4 N_Italian (Dodecad) 5.74
    5 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.96
    6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.13
    7 Baleares (1000Genomes) 14.18
    8 Greek (Dodecad) 15.98
    9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.08
    10 Galicia (1000Genomes) 16.2
    11 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.32

    TSI is from north of Firenze, yes?

    This is MDLP-I'm pretty sure the "Piedmont" source is actually the set of samples from the mountainous border land between Piemonte, Lombardia, and Emilia from villages which became part of Piemonte very late, and speak mountain Ligurian dialects and even have Ligure in all the names of the villages. It might approximate mountain Emilians. It's impossible for me to say unless someone from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano near the Parco dei Cento ran this gedmatch calculator. I don't know which Tuscan source he used. Probably not TSI?
    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Piedmont ( ) 5.28
    2 Italian_Bergamo ( ) 5.95
    3 Italian_Tuscan ( ) 7.33
    4 Italian_North ( ) 7.82
    5 Italian_Abruzzo ( ) 11.68
    6 Sicilian_Trapani ( ) 13.63
    7 Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) 14.21
    8 German-Volga ( ) 14.35
    9 South_German ( ) 14.61
    10 Maltese ( ) 14.73
    11 Sicilian_West ( ) 15.24

    This is from Vahaduo:
    3.35070082 France_Corsica
    5.88253772 Italy_Tuscany
    6.05046701 Italy_Emilia
    6.46549999 Italy_Liguria
    7.41275253 Italy_Romagna
    7.49533572 Italy_Lombardy
    9.37771817 Italy_Marche
    9.40447500 Italy_Piedmont
    9.81684050 Italy_Veneto
    10.41448482 Italy_Lazio
    11.46905892 Swiss_Italian
    12.79029632 Italy_Trentino
    12.93960726 Italy_FriuliVG
    14.31793630 Albanian_Kosovo
    14.65967257 Albanian_North
    14.71938139 Italy_Aosta_Valley
    14.73174123 Italy_Abruzzo
    15.70859319 Baleares
    16.70817483 Italy_Campania
    17.33728895 Italy_Apulia
    17.44167136 Greek
    17.66150517 Italy_Sicily
    18.04604943 Galicia
    18.38794442 Turk_Macedonia
    18.48941589 Extremadura

    It doesn't seem possible that's the same Piemonte sample that was used above. Probably other "Sizzi" stuff from more western Piemonte?

    I seem to be equally distant from all three provinces: Emilia, Toscana, and Liguria. I'm an orphan. :)

    I'm ignoring the Corsica number. There are no Corsicans in my ancestry. Maybe whoever is is (one sample again) is from a part of Corsica heavily settled by Tuscans and Ligurians, or he has some recent ancestry from those areas and/or France. The guy who collected it would have to investigate.

    For what it's worth there was a PCA posted with all these samples, I think by you, and if I remember correctly, I was closest to the most northern Of the Tuscan samples, and the most southern of the Bergamo samples, which of course makes sense.

    You can see why my distance of 2 or 3 to some ancient samples from Pannonia and Piemonte are so surprising to me.
    Very interesting. These mountains must be prone to drift, yes. Perhaps your area is a "region" apart genetically.
    According to the PCA I shared, there are Italian_Northeast individuals who plot nowhere too. Likely from mountains.

    Afaik the TSI are near Firenze, yes, but I don't know from where exactly. My parents and I get Tuscan as our second pop in Dodecad K12b. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    that map was from a Combined file, below is an original from Ancestry, and it is even closer to the G25 Apulian,

    I picked the first map because imho is a better fit for me, but I could be wrong, and I’m closer to Lazio.



    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34142-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps?p=571524&viewfull=1#post571524
    Still strange that your closest is to Lazio and you're just as likely to be from Salento as you are from Peloponnese, Cyclades and Evoia in Greece. Are you not telling us something, Salento ?
    As an explanation, the Venetians had a series of castles in Nafplion (Nauplio in Italian), or Monevasia, Cyclades, and Evoia (Evia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Still strange that your closest is to Lazio and you're just as likely to be from Salento as you are from Peloponnese, Cyclades and Evoia in Greece. Are you not telling us something, Salento ?
    please elaborate, I have never been been in those places, ... and what is it that I’m not saying?

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    I ran the G25 Sicilian_West and G25_Sicilian_East as Targets vs. The G25_Target and here is what it gave me. The K36 results are my similarity(s) using my own Ancestry DNA results. The individual averages are interesting but I don't know where the 6 different Sicilian Samples are from.

    Distance to: Sicilian_West
    0.01705574 Sicilian_East
    0.02137064 Maltese
    0.02159808 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02184193 Italian_Apulia
    0.02187507 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02303621 Italian_Campania
    0.02317639 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02333851 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02409976 Italian_Molise
    0.02466347 Italian_Lazio
    0.02504179 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02527071 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02610298 Italian_Marche
    0.02653814 Italian_Calabria
    0.02729268 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02869116 Italian_Umbria
    0.02878019 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03169877 Greek_Izmir
    0.03407542 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03502312 Greek_Crete
    0.03572330 Italian_Jew
    0.03590856 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03700195 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03993268 Sephardic_Jew
    0.04120246 French_Corsica

    Distance to: Sicilian_East
    0.01529161 Italian_Apulia
    0.01530410 Italian_Campania
    0.01705574 Sicilian_West
    0.01720579 Italian_Basilicata
    0.01821389 Italian_Calabria
    0.01975600 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02073139 Maltese
    0.02179425 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02193162 Italian_Molise
    0.02197046 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02410308 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02453768 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02497703 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02585199 Greek_Crete
    0.02649162 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02725713 Italian_Lazio
    0.02745448 Greek_Izmir
    0.02848957 Italian_Marche
    0.02895862 Italian_Jew
    0.03190648 Italian_Umbria
    0.03359257 Sephardic_Jew
    0.03429898 Greek_Kos
    0.03476358 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03835935 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03854060 Greek_Thessaly


    Capture_K36.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    please elaborate, I have never been been in those places, ... and what is it that I’m not saying?
    I just went by the general areas on the map where you have a score of 79. All those areas I mentioned are close to the places on the map you have a score of 79. It just so happens that those areas had scores of Venetian castles. So what I'm joking about is that maybe you had an ancestor in the employ of the Venetians that left their progeny in those places.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I just went by the general areas on the map where you have a score of 79. All those areas I mentioned are close to the places on the map you have a score of 79. It just so happens that those areas had scores of Venetian castles. So what I'm joking about is that maybe you had an ancestor in the employ of the Venetians that left their progeny in those places.
    ... I paid for this, got a lot more:




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    Salento: Interesting and nice results in post 2586. Closest to Lazio and you had some really close Republican Roman distances on MTA. Nice time series of genetic continuity in my view. What is the source of those results? In addition to Provincial Palermo and Trapani, one of my Great Grandfathers was born in a mountain town in Agrigento called Cammarrata, it is like 5,200 feet in the mountains.

    Quick question, those G25 comparisons you did, are those your own coordinates are just something you came up with to do comparison as an experiment as you were alluding to in an earlier post.

    Thanks, PT

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Interesting and nice results in post 2586. Closest to Lazio and you had some really close Republican Roman distances on MTA. Nice time series of genetic continuity in my view. What is the source of those results? In addition to Provincial Palermo and Trapani, one of my Great Grandfathers was born in a mountain town in Agrigento called Cammarrata, it is like 5,200 feet in the mountains.

    Quick question, those G25 comparisons you did, are those your own coordinates are just something you came up with to do comparison as an experiment as you were alluding to in an earlier post.

    Thanks, PT
    The G25 coordinates are NOT mine, ... those belong to the G25 Apulian from Vahaduo G25 modern average,
    ... I compared his/her G25 - k36 results with my K36 similarity map results.


    ...#2586 Maps are from:


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ... pick and choose ... (from the same file as above)



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi friends.
    I think this tool of LM Genetics very cool to make a comparative analysis of the Eu K36 and MyTrueAncestry.com’s results. This is my ethnicity according to this tool, just to knowledge. I wish all a nice week.













    Last edited by Duarte; 02-06-20 at 16:55.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    How did you do this run? When I put Apulia average, something else shows up. If those are your coordinates, then never mind. I could not check them. :)

    Distance to: Italian_Apulia
    0.00762777 Italian_Basilicata
    0.00937691 Italian_Campania
    0.00973705 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01395084 Italian_Molise
    0.01529161 Sicilian_East
    0.01685879 Italian_Calabria
    0.01756746 Greek_Izmir
    0.02022088 Italian_Lazio
    0.02137402 Italian_Marche
    0.02184193 Sicilian_West
    0.02271044 Greek_Crete
    0.02376687 Italian_Umbria
    0.02387513 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02395052 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02443098 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02445695 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.02546236 Maltese
    0.02567869 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02674970 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02775236 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03064611 Greek_Kos
    0.03121197 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03275858 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03410245 Italian_Jew
    0.03882988 Albanian

    I didn’t run your ran, lol

    ... got it from this page:
    Eurogenes K36-like G25 Model

    http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/K36-like%20model.htm

    I ran this average Apulian coordinates:

    Italian_Apulia,0.1107119,0.1482673,-0.0037713,-0.0401381,0.0158388,-0.0151159,-0.0009557,-0.0016153,0.0027951,0.0206898,-0.0002273,0.0038765,-0.0064717,0.0011929,-0.0081071,-0.0038982,0.0016691,0.0005997,0.0027485,-0.0051524,-0.0038098,0.0019619,0.0017584,0.0014379,-0.0005667


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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I ran the G25 Sicilian_West and G25_Sicilian_East as Targets vs. The G25_Target and here is what it gave me. The K36 results are my similarity(s) using my own Ancestry DNA results. The individual averages are interesting but I don't know where the 6 different Sicilian Samples are from.

    Distance to: Sicilian_West
    0.01705574 Sicilian_East
    0.02137064 Maltese
    0.02159808 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02184193 Italian_Apulia
    0.02187507 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02303621 Italian_Campania
    0.02317639 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02333851 Italian_Basilicata
    0.02409976 Italian_Molise
    0.02466347 Italian_Lazio
    0.02504179 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02527071 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02610298 Italian_Marche
    0.02653814 Italian_Calabria
    0.02729268 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02869116 Italian_Umbria
    0.02878019 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.03169877 Greek_Izmir
    0.03407542 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03502312 Greek_Crete
    0.03572330 Italian_Jew
    0.03590856 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03700195 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03993268 Sephardic_Jew
    0.04120246 French_Corsica

    Distance to: Sicilian_East
    0.01529161 Italian_Apulia
    0.01530410 Italian_Campania
    0.01705574 Sicilian_West
    0.01720579 Italian_Basilicata
    0.01821389 Italian_Calabria
    0.01975600 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02073139 Maltese
    0.02179425 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02193162 Italian_Molise
    0.02197046 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02410308 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02453768 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02497703 Ashkenazi_Russia
    0.02585199 Greek_Crete
    0.02649162 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    0.02725713 Italian_Lazio
    0.02745448 Greek_Izmir
    0.02848957 Italian_Marche
    0.02895862 Italian_Jew
    0.03190648 Italian_Umbria
    0.03359257 Sephardic_Jew
    0.03429898 Greek_Kos
    0.03476358 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03835935 Romaniote_Jew
    0.03854060 Greek_Thessaly


    Capture_K36.JPG

    nice results :)

    ... but I ran the Eurogenes K36-like G25 Model:

    http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/K36-like%20model.htm

    ... there’s been some confusion, ... :)

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    Salento: Ok, I think I got it. You took the G25 modern average coordinates and put them in the Target in the G25/K36 like calculator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Ok, I think I got it. You took the G25 modern average coordinates and put them in the Target in the G25/K36 like calculator.
    Yes, :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Salento: Following your experiment, top 20 distances. The source Populations in that spreadsheet have nothing South of Lazio. So I get Lazio as my closest distance, then Tuscany, before 2 Greek and 1 Albanian sample, which seems to be reasonably consistent with my K36 results in post #2584. Congrats, I think your experiment went quite well!!

    Distance to: Sicilian_West
    0.02466347 Italian:Italian_Lazio
    0.03423003 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
    0.03831792 Balkan:Greek_Crete
    0.03948460 Balkan:Greek
    0.04335072 Balkan:Albanian
    0.04444277 Italian:Swiss_Italian
    0.04721869 Italian:Italian_Liguria
    0.05039409 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
    0.05299246 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
    0.05708771 Balkan:Gagauz
    0.06013053 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
    0.06117780 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
    0.06143145 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
    0.06232845 East_Mediterranean:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.06266712 East_Mediterranean:Cyprus24AJ19
    0.06386621 Balkan:Bulgarian
    0.06727670 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.06733453 East_Mediterranean:CYP19
    0.06849467 East_Mediterranean:CYP2
    0.06885908 Balkan:Macedonian

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm in a position to always take the results of the G25 with a grain of salt, since it's incomplete with samples in my area.
    So the autosomal proximity begins to wander between Liguria, Lombardy/Bergamo, Piedmont, Tuscany and the combinations become rather exotic assemblies (on balance a little better the k36-like G25 model compared to the G25 Modern Averages scaled)

    G25 average scaled

    Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


    0.02559946 Italian_Liguria
    0.02578946 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02784830 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02890115 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03085707 Italian_Marche
    0.03108708 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03117244 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03395817 Swiss_Italian
    0.03488089 Albanian
    0.03593146 Italian_Veneto
    0.03611197 French_Corsica
    0.03679646 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03723127 Italian_Lazio
    0.03774512 Italian_Umbria
    0.03885696 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04076855 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.04101491 Italian_Molise
    0.04173885 Italian_Northeast
    0.04317431 Gagauz
    0.04330361 Sicilian_West
    0.04422228 Italian_Apulia
    0.04518076 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04574888 Moldovan
    0.04611094 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04625298 Sicilian_East

    Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
    Distance: 1.8448% / 0.01844770


    60.6 Italian_Lombardy
    13.4 Italian_Liguria
    9.4 Sicilian_East
    6.4 Russian_Smolensk
    5.6 Greek_Trabzon
    4.6 Samaritan

    K36-like G25 Model


    Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


    0.02559946 Italian:Italian_Liguria
    0.02578946 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
    0.03117244 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
    0.03136743 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
    0.03395817 Italian:Swiss_Italian
    0.03488089 Balkan:Albanian
    0.03674054 Balkan:Greek
    0.03723127 Italian:Italian_Lazio
    0.04317431 Balkan:Gagauz
    0.04805838 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
    0.04837068 Balkan:Bulgarian
    0.05128531 Balkan:Macedonian
    0.05384627 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
    0.05487882 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.06261084 France:French_Occitanie
    0.06261084 Ibérian_péninsula:French_Occitanie
    0.06501205 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
    0.06582162 Balkan:Greek_Crete
    0.06834854 France:French_South
    0.07114461 France:French_Paris
    0.07202104 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    0.07309467 North_atlantic:Belgian
    0.07718567 Central_European:Austrian
    0.08184306 Basque:BAS33
    0.08337047 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian

    Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
    Distance: 1.7589% / 0.01758910


    67.8 Italian
    19.6 East_Mediterranean
    8.6 Eastern_Europe
    2.0 North_Sea
    2.0 West_Mediterranean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuvanè View Post
    I'm in a position to always take the results of the G25 with a grain of salt, since it's incomplete with samples in my area.
    So the autosomal proximity begins to wander between Liguria, Lombardy/Bergamo, Piedmont, Tuscany and the combinations become rather exotic assemblies (on balance a little better the k36-like G25 model compared to the G25 Modern Averages scaled)

    G25 average scaled

    Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


    0.02559946 Italian_Liguria
    0.02578946 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02784830 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02890115 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03085707 Italian_Marche
    0.03108708 Italian_Tuscany
    0.03117244 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03395817 Swiss_Italian
    0.03488089 Albanian
    0.03593146 Italian_Veneto
    0.03611197 French_Corsica
    0.03679646 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03723127 Italian_Lazio
    0.03774512 Italian_Umbria
    0.03885696 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04076855 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.04101491 Italian_Molise
    0.04173885 Italian_Northeast
    0.04317431 Gagauz
    0.04330361 Sicilian_West
    0.04422228 Italian_Apulia
    0.04518076 Spanish_Menorca
    0.04574888 Moldovan
    0.04611094 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.04625298 Sicilian_East

    Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
    Distance: 1.8448% / 0.01844770


    60.6 Italian_Lombardy
    13.4 Italian_Liguria
    9.4 Sicilian_East
    6.4 Russian_Smolensk
    5.6 Greek_Trabzon
    4.6 Samaritan

    K36-like G25 Model


    Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


    0.02559946 Italian:Italian_Liguria
    0.02578946 Italian:Italian_Lombardy
    0.03117244 Italian:Italian_Bergamo
    0.03136743 Italian:Italian_Tuscany
    0.03395817 Italian:Swiss_Italian
    0.03488089 Balkan:Albanian
    0.03674054 Balkan:Greek
    0.03723127 Italian:Italian_Lazio
    0.04317431 Balkan:Gagauz
    0.04805838 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Andalucia
    0.04837068 Balkan:Bulgarian
    0.05128531 Balkan:Macedonian
    0.05384627 Ibérian_péninsula:Portuguese
    0.05487882 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    0.06261084 France:French_Occitanie
    0.06261084 Ibérian_péninsula:French_Occitanie
    0.06501205 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Canarias
    0.06582162 Balkan:Greek_Crete
    0.06834854 France:French_South
    0.07114461 France:French_Paris
    0.07202104 Ibérian_péninsula:Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    0.07309467 North_atlantic:Belgian
    0.07718567 Central_European:Austrian
    0.08184306 Basque:BAS33
    0.08337047 Eastern_Europe:Hungarian

    Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
    Distance: 1.7589% / 0.01758910


    67.8 Italian
    19.6 East_Mediterranean
    8.6 Eastern_Europe
    2.0 North_Sea
    2.0 West_Mediterranean
    Stuvane: Looks like it does a pretty good job. How well goes G25 perform for you relative to other calculators? I have no clue how it does for me as I don't have my personal G25 coordinates.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: Looks like it does a pretty good job. How well goes G25 perform for you relative to other calculators? I have no clue how it does for me as I don't have my personal G25 coordinates.
    Hi Palermo,


    It depends. As always, the richer (and more accurate) the set of samples is, the more the oracle works better. If there is nothing in the samples really resembling you in the autosomal, it will take the immediately following groups of peoples as a reference and play by building averages or combinations with them.
    So, if Romagnols and Eastern Emilians can be modeled as descendants of mainly Protovillanovian and Villanovan substrates (with subsequent Gallic, Italic-Roman and Greek-Balkan contributions), I would tend to give credit to the computers that manage to position me in the PCA near 1) Tuscans 2) North Italians in the case of modern oracles.
    In the case of the ancient oracles I seem to understand that they are quite valid especially those that approach me to the Proto-italic / Proto-picen sample of Martinsicuro, to the Italian/Roman/Tuscan-like ones of Szolad and Collegno and some Roman samples of the late imperial age, whose autosomal is now comparable to both the Tuscan and some central Italians and to the Venetic ones (or intermediate to them).


    That said, for what is my personal and questionable experience I would say that the G25 (both in the version of Ancient Individual samples and of Averages ancient) gives more precise results than analogous ones that work on modern populations.
    Among the various other Vahaduo calculators, the updated sets of the Dodecad and Eurogenes (ancient and modern) seem to me equally valid, more than anything else because modern Emilia and Romagna samples that are missing in G25 have been included (although Eurogenes is more discussed for various questions: in my case I would opt for the Eurogenes K13 for a number of reasons that I don't mention here).

    Now I wouldn't be wrong, but I think the MTA oracle is in fact a version of Eurogenes k15 or something very similar. I cannot complain about the PCA and its oracles, but MTA has objective limits in the way it classifies or names its ancient peoples, often favoring the curiosity of its users for marketing reasons, to the detriment of historical and archaeological accuracy. It should be used very critically


    My MTA results

    Closest ancient population

    Roman (6.512)
    Roman + Illyrian (6.618)
    Gallo-Roman + Roman (7.208)
    Al-Andalus + Roman (8.368)
    Roman Hispania + Roman (8.565)
    Roman Hispania + Illyrian (9.632)
    Gallo-Roman (11.36)
    Illyrian (11.75)
    Roman Hispania (14.23)
    Al-Andalus (16.42)




    Modern populations

    1. Tuscan (8.092)
    2. Kosovar (8.879)
    3. North_Italian (9.731)
    4. Albanian_Tosk (11.72)
    5. West_Sicilian (11.97)
    6. Italian_Abruzzo (12.10)
    7. Greek (12.77)
    8. Bulgarian (14.50)


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Stuvane: Ok, thanks for that detailed explanation. For me the Updated Dodecad 12b and Updated Eurogenes K13 works very well for me. MDLP with I think updated samples and I must admit the Eurogenes K36 looks quite accurate, although I am not sure still what all those 36 reference populations actually mean or what they are trying to capture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Stuvane: Ok, thanks for that detailed explanation. For me the Updated Dodecad 12b and Updated Eurogenes K13 works very well for me. MDLP with I think updated samples and I must admit the Eurogenes K36 looks quite accurate, although I am not sure still what all those 36 reference populations actually mean or what they are trying to capture.

    I am simply curious: I will tell you that I started to appreciate Eurogenes k36 only after the oracles of yourDNAportal or this tool have been associated with it (see https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm )

    From YourDNAportal:

    Closest population distances

    Population
    Distance
    CL36_north-Italian
    0.9910701
    SZ36_north-Italian
    1.1891711
    SZ28_north-Italian
    1.2160251
    CL121__north-Italian
    1.3294021
    SZ43_north-Italian
    1.4221923
    SZ32_north-Italian
    1.4702894
    CL23_north-Italian
    1.4754335
    EMA_north-Italian_NW_54
    1.512881

    Population
    Value
    SZ28_north-Italian
    24
    CL121__north-Italian
    16.2
    SZ36_north-Italian
    12.6
    CL23_north-Italian
    6.2
    SZ18_Pannonian
    6
    Niederstotzingen_north-Italian_3c
    5.4
    CL36_north-Italian
    4.6
    SZ19_Italian-Balkan
    2.6
    EMA_north-Italian_FN_2
    2.4
    CL47_Alpine
    2.2
    BA_I9041_Mycenaean
    1.6
    CL38_Greek_south-Italian
    1.2
    LBA_Armenia_RISE412
    1.2
    N_Levant_AinGhazal4
    1
    Visigoth_Iberian_I12034
    1
    I3578_EMA_Andalusia
    0.8
    BA_Hungary_BR2
    0.6
    CHL_Anatolian_I1584
    0.6
    CL30_Greek_south-Italian
    0.6
    DA199HungaryMedieval
    0.6
    I2462_Bronze_Age_England_Kent
    0.6
    MN_Germany_I0559
    0.6
    SZ32_north-Italian
    0.6
    EMA_Greek_STR_300
    0.4
    I10851_medieval_Catalonia
    0.4
    I1979_Beaker_North_Italy
    0.4
    MBA_Germany__RISE471
    0.4
    N_Germany_I0048
    0.4
    SZ38_Longobard
    0.4
    SZ45_Pannonian
    0.4
    BA_Hungary_RISE374
    0.2
    BA_I9006_Mycenean
    0.2
    BA_Portugal_TorreVelha_32032
    0.2
    BA_Sydon
    0.2
    CHL_Armenia_I1407
    0.2
    CHL_Iran_I1665
    0.2
    CL94_Iberian
    0.2
    CWC_Poland_RISE1
    0.2
    EIA_F38_Iran
    0.2
    EMA_Italian_STR_502
    0.2
    EMA_north-Italian_NW_54
    0.2
    EN_Anatolia_Tepe002
    0.2
    I10892_Catalonia_medieval
    0.2
    I1388_Beaker_South_France
    0.2
    LBA_Armenia_RISE397
    0.2
    MN_Iberia_I0407
    0.2
    N_Germany_I0795
    0.2
    N_Sweden_N_Gökhem2
    0.2
    Scythian009_Ukraine
    0.2
    i3808_Morisco_Andalusia_1500AD
    0.2







    My perplexities (which I believe are yours too) are that I don't know how realistic it is to guess the ancestral compositions of an individual, calling into question 36 components (!). I also enjoy playing with these oracles, but the more time passes the more I realize that really effective calculators work on a more limited number of components (that's why, among other things, I prefer the Dodecad and the other Eurogenes working on smaller numbers of components).

    Wanting to be even more practical, it seems to me that the most realistic calculators are those that process data with ancestral components (EEF / ENF - WHG - EHG - CHG - Levant / Natufian...), since all the peoples of western Eurasia and of the Mediterranean are essentially matched in various proportions of these archaic "ingredients", and by shifting the level from time to time you will understand that you are dealing with a southern or northern European or with a Middle Eastern ... I am just looking at the G25 ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS by Celtíbero Itálico works essentially in this way and it seems to me to provide substantially correct results, especially in the combo of "single section"


    Distance to: G25Stuvanè_scaled


    0.12761894 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0746
    0.12828737 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12881803 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.13112898 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.13181645 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.13240084 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.13436836 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.13524548 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.13742110 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.13769232 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.13899570 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0724
    0.14084452 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1096
    0.14136237 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0709
    0.14247665 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0726
    0.14258646 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.14472578 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.14475626 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0727
    0.14485033 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.14578671 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.14636180 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0744
    0.14736294 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.15109871 Early_European_Farmer:Anatolia_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.15413088 Early_European_Farmer:GRC_N:I5427
    0.19965334 Steppe_Pastoralist:RUS_Afanasievo:I11112
    0.20015281 Steppe_Pastoralist:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara:I0357


    Target: G25Stuvanè_scaled
    Distance: 1.8211% / 0.01821066


    57.6 Early_European_Farmer
    32.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    5.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    3.8 Iran_Neolithic
    0.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer

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