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Thread: Mytrueancestry.com

  1. #276
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    I saw this comment though, which could be relevant here:

    "Oh, and what's also in that upcoming Moots' paper, according to Ryukendo, is that central Italy in the EBA was still Sardinian-like up to 1700 BC."
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Also this idea about Transylvanian CHG is just not feasible.
    Why? Iron Age Moldovans and Bulgarians have lots of it, as do modern Romanians.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Why? Iron Age Moldovans and Bulgarians have lots of it, as do modern Romanians.
    Because of the Y-dna lineages, which have continuity in the west balkans for the most part.

    So unless its mostly female mediated, this picture of Illyrians being entirely iberian like before some mass transylvian migration is not feasible and is being built too early based on only two coastal north west illyrians and a lack of samples from Ancient macedonians, southern illyrians (like enchelae), dardanians, epirotes, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Because of the Y-dna lineages, which have continuity in the west balkans for the most part.

    So unless its mostly female mediated, this picture of Illyrians being entirely iberian like before some mass transylvian migration is not feasible and is being built too early based on only two coastal north west illyrians and a lack of samples from Ancient macedonians, southern illyrians (like enchelae), dardanians, epirotes, etc.
    Not a good argument IMHO, Western Balkan lineages are too bottlenecked. What about BA/IA Montenegro, BA Pannonia? There must have been a turnover.

    Macedonians were Eastern Balkanic, but Dardanians might be interesting.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Not a good argument IMHO, Western Balkan lineages are too bottlenecked. What about BA/IA Montenegro, BA Pannonia? There must have been a turnover.
    Pannonia is even further north, and the oldest first mentioned as "illyrians" are the Taulanti who held west central albania position, and the enchelae, who were near lake ohrid, and then the Illyrians in epirus like the Bulliounes. Its possible that Dalmatian/Pannonian illyrians were influenced by their north italic Venetic neighbours. Or what if they had Venetic mothers from political marriages, etc. Without samples from inland Illyria, and south illyria, and epirotes,etc its too early to start creating theories about transylvanian migrants.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Pannonia is even further north, and the oldest first mentioned as "illyrians" are the Taulanti who held west central albania position, and the enchelae, who were near lake ohrid, and then the Illyrians in epirus like the Bulliounes. Its possible that Dalmatian/Pannonian illyrians were influenced by their north italic Venetic neighbours. Or what if they had Venetic mothers from political marriages, etc. Without samples from inland Illyria, and south illyria, and epirotes,etc its too early to start creating theories about transylvanian migrants.
    We have DNA from kurgans in the Zeta plain, it doesn't get more 'Illyrian' than this. Believe whatever you want.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have DNA from kurgans in the Zeta plain, it doesn't get more 'Illyrian' than this. Believe whatever you want.
    Link? Source? Actually Serbia has many tumuli in Novi Pazar, and also in Central Serbia from Moesian sites. Where are these dna results? Serbia is not very transparent when it comes to archaeology unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Link? Source? Actually Serbia has many tumuli in Novi Pazar, and also in Central Serbia from Moesian sites. Where are these dna results? Serbia is not very transparent when it comes to archaeology unfortunately.
    Actually I mixed things up, the kurgans are from the bay of Kotor. Similar to Iberians and Hungarians respectively:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...VFYWp0WlE/view

    Still early Illyrian, although Zeta plain would be earlier still if we go by Greek accounts.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ...............

  10. #285
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Actually I mixed things up, the kurgans are from the bay of Kotor. Similar to Iberians and Hungarians respectively:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...VFYWp0WlE/view

    Still early Illyrian, although Zeta plain would be earlier still if we go by Greek accounts.
    Well Kotor is the coast, and it is still Northern/Dalmatian/Panonnian border zone. We can't build argument on inland illyrians and south illyrians based on that. The coasts were routinely grabbed by conquest, and the first to change over with transfer of power, etc. The first time the term "illyrian" is attested is around around 500-400 BC, and its used for southern and central illyrians. With entry of Romans it becomes applied all the way north north

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Opinion of Vadim Verenich (author of MDLP calcs) about it...

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post563682

    So they repeat the same mistake(s) that was already done by the forerunners.
    From the results posted above, we can infer that the similarity metrics rely on IBS scores between pseudo-haploid genomes of ancient samples and fully diploid genomes of modern reference groups, which is rather nonsensical.
    For the words of wisdom were spelled out:
    1) Thou shalt not compare pseudo-haploids against diploids - render unto haploids the things that are haploids, and unto diploids the things that are diploids"
    2) Thou shalt not take genomewide ancestry and IBS metrics for estimating ancestry in vain.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mlukas View Post
    Opinion of Vadim Verenich (author of MDLP calcs) about it...
    Thanks for this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Well Kotor is the coast, and it is still Northern/Dalmatian/Panonnian border zone. We can't build argument on inland illyrians and south illyrians based on that. The coasts were routinely grabbed by conquest, and the first to change over with transfer of power, etc. The first time the term "illyrian" is attested is around around 500-400 BC, and its used for southern and central illyrians. With entry of Romans it becomes applied all the way north north
    Hecateaus is the earliest IIRC, and he places them in the southern Dalmatian coastal area, i. e. right where these samples are. The Zeta plain is near the coast as well, and that's where the chiefly kurgans are.

    No reason to think these weren't Illyrian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Hecateaus is the earliest IIRC, and he places them in the southern Dalmatian coastal area, i. e. right where these samples are. The Zeta plain is near the coast as well, and that's where the chiefly kurgans are.

    No reason to think these weren't Illyrian.
    Correct Hecateus, here is the quote, the first Illyrian tribe we have mentioned with the term Illyrian:

    "“Hecataeus in “Europe”. Chelidonians. An Illyrian people. Chelidonians live to the north of (the) Sesarethians”

    The Chelidoni are the Taulanti. Chelidon means swallows in greece, dalland means swallow in Albanian.

    The Sesarethians were around Lychnidus (lake ohrid) so this also matches taulanti location, north west of lake ohrid, central west Albania

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    imo

    Part of my results related to the Adriatic Sea, show that in a genetic sense, the Illyrian Tribes that migrated to Northeast/Southeast Italy, were closely related to each other.

    (assuming I have Illyrian traces)
    Adriatic side:
    Campania, Puglia, Calabria 36.2%
    Tuscany, Emilia Romagna, Umbria 20.1%
    Epirus, Central Greece, West Macedonia 9.3%
    Northern Italy 4%
    Italy, Friuli-Venezia Giulia 1.7%
    Goriska, Gorenjska 2.6%
    Krapina-Zagorje, Varazdin, Osijek-Baranja 1.8%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A1ntabros
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri


    Origin Spanish wikipedia


    Estela Cantabrian Barros (Cantabria). Made of sandstone and with a base pier, its dimensions are 1.70 m in diameter and 0.32 m in thickness.
    The study of the archaeological sites in the area where the cantabros are currently believed to be located reveals, on a Neolithic substratum, objects of a characteristic invoice of populations of the Danube region and the funerary culture of Campos de Urnas that could have arrived during the Bronze to settle later, during the second millennium a. C., around the high Ebro.


    Both the gentilicios used by some tribes or Cantabrian clans - in particular the one of the orgenomescos / argentomescios? finally displaced to the more montane interior-, as well as equine cults, are similar to those of the Sarmatians and Moesios, Mekhi or Mycenaeans. The latter, of Indo-European language also, came from the regions north of the Danube and migrated to very remote places retaining their original names or variants, according to James P. Mallory. Although the foregoing does not allow to determine with certainty the original origin of these groups, genetic studies conducted in the current population of the region, detect in male genes a percentage mostly affiliated with haplogroup R-SRY2627 of Nordic origin, and to a lesser extent Haplogroup E E-M81 (4) from North Africa. The simultaneous presence of these haplotypes of African origin among the male population is considered original, and the great variety of origin of the mitochondrial haplogroups, among which those usually found in North Africa, suggest several possible successive influxes of Celtic populations close to Illyrians that could come from the Aegean region, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania and ancient Thrace where such genes are found today as well. Alternatively, some of these genetic subgroups of such disparate provenances may have reached Cantabria later during the Carthaginian or Roman domination of the Iberian Peninsula, even during the brief Muslim domination of the southern part of the region.


    The dominant clan in the most fertile area and access to the high passes, the Plentusians / Plentuish ?, is related to the later culture of La Tène, properly Celtic and coming from the Lower Rhine.4 It could be of the first tribes evicted by Germanic tribes before 300 a. C.5 These are, perhaps, similar in etymology and identity to the Celtiberian Pelendons between the Ebro and Duero Rivers. [Citation needed]


    Concanos, coniscos, salaens and other peoples may have been relegated to less favorable grazing areas. Within the tribal community they seem to represent Celtic Hallstatt groups or Paleolithic matrilineal genders related to the Basques, as Joaquín González Echegaray points out.

    English wikipedia

    Origins

    The ancestors of the Cantabri were thought by the Romans to have migrated to the Iberian Peninsulaaround the 4th Century BC, and were said by them to be more mixed than most peninsular Celtic peoples, their eleven or so tribes, assessed by Roman writers according to their names, were supposed to have included Gallic, Celtiberian, Indo-Aryan, Aquitanian, and Ligurian origins.[citation needed]
    A detailed analysis of place-names in ancient Cantabria shows a strong Celtic element along with an almost equally strong "Para-Celtic" element (both Indo-European) and thus disproves the idea of a substantial pre-Indo-European or Basque presence in the region. This supports the earlier view that Untermann considered the most plausible, coinciding with archaeological evidence put forward by Ruiz-Gálvez in 1998, that the Celtic settlement of the Iberian Peninsula was made by people who arrived via the Atlantic Ocean in an area between Brittany and the mouth of the River Garonne, finally settling along the Galician and Cantabrian coast.
    The only Celtic population connection with Illyrian population first occurred in Noricum ( east Austria ) in the late bronze-age and is part of Halstatt culture ( it is not part of La Tene culture ).
    Later celtic invasions into the western Balkans, occurred in the iron-age
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Salento is right. I do not know in which calculator I also got Macedonian. The Illyrians can proceed from the Dorians. Maybe these tools are not super precise but they are quite good and they begin to coincide in many cases. Anyway, if we are now super mixed and these European ancient ethnic groups were also.

    I think Albano Rissi could take Ilirio if the genetic test was done. I feel a familiar flow with him, maybe it's about that.

    The ancient ethnic groups could be in many places moving through the historic happenings. Equally unlikely is the monopolization of ancient ethnic groups for political or nationalist issues today.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Salento is right. I do not know in which calculator I also got Macedonian. The Illyrians can proceed from the Dorians. Maybe these tools are not super precise but they are quite good and they begin to coincide in many cases. Anyway, if we are now super mixed and these European ancient ethnic groups were also.

    I think Albano Rissi could take Ilirio if the genetic test was done. I feel a familiar flow with him, maybe it's about that.

    The ancient ethnic groups could be in many places moving through the historic happenings. Equally unlikely is the monopolization of ancient ethnic groups for political or nationalist issues today.
    Hello Carlos.
    I'm not the type that likes to get into polemics, but I'll solidarize with you in your comment. No modern nationality, whether from anywhere place in the world, can self-proclaim itself the only descendant or the only one who is ethnically related to a particular ancestral people. Human Displacements and even the replacement of an entire ancestral population by another had been very common for millennia, and in this sense no one is authorized to say that his people are the only direct descendant of a particular individual or a group of individuals just because their skeletons and skulls were found in your backyard.
    Big hug my dear friend :)
    “Às vezes ouço passar o vento; e só de ouvir o vento passar, vale a pena ter nascido”.
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    It seems to affect Abruzzo, Tuscans, also. So i want to hear this, since you keep alluding to it, it's obvious you have a theory
    Ghegian Y-lineages are completely Western Balkan. That's what these people can't get through their thick sculls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    Ghegian Y-lineages are completely Western Balkan. That's what these people can't get through their thick sculls.
    In Albanian we say Geg. The serbs say Ghegian.
    Gheg or Geg (Gheg Albanian: gegnisht, Standard Albanian: gegë or gegërisht) is one of the two major varieties of Albanian.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post

    "So how did Y-haplogroup J2b get to Europe? My view for now is that it mostly arrived with a few sailors from the Near East during the Early to Middle Bronze Age"

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/0...to-europe.html


    Well, at least he's being honest about the time. Way to discount a pivotal event in human history.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Albanian we say Geg. The serbs say Ghegian.
    Gheg or Geg (Gheg Albanian: gegnisht, Standard Albanian: gegë or gegërisht) is one of the two major varieties of Albanian.
    Irrelevant to the discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thanks for this
    To me, it seems that a great majority are amateurs. I can’t see trained geneticists really focusing on the genealogy aspect of the field . What’s his background? I’m just curious, because it appears his training is more or less related to law and philosophy of you check out his CV

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Could it be that they found the Iapygians? :)
    (Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians?)

    Ancient Relatives:
    2 Illyrians and a Thracian



  25. #300
    Regular Member Achievements:
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    TardisBlue's Avatar
    Join Date
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    MtDNA haplogroup
    W3a1

    Ethnic group
    Cheesy macaroni
    Country: France



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Premium members: We are proud to announce the "Deep Dive" feature!

    - Deep dive checks your ENTIRE raw DNA data against all potential matches on an individual 1-1 basis
    (you will need to re-upload your data, as raw data is removed after processing completes)
    - This one of a kind feature you will not find anywhere else. Prove your ancestry beyond doubt.
    - Discover Ancient Relatives. Compare at the chromosome level with new visual tools.
    Great new feature!






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