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Thread: Mytrueancestry.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... new upload #3 (XXIII V) :)

    Hi Salento.
    Nice. I'd like to ask you a question. In the previous post you posted as Caio G. Cesare (Caio Júlio César, in Portuguese) and, in this, you posting as his rival, Marco Antonio? LOL. I think Cleopatra must be a bit confused. LOL. My younger brother is called Marco Antonio, and my first name is also composed: Fernando César (Fernando, by my father's request, that was his name, César, a Portuguese form of the Latin Caesar, by my mother's request). Now you know almost my complete real name. Fernando César P. Duarte. LOL. P. is a 100% Portuguese surname but, for now, I will not say what it is. For someone of Portuguese ancestry it is easily deductible. LOLLOL. Hugs my dear friend.

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    My last name is attributed to a gentleman of the Cid. I spoke online with a genealogist who, because of the provenance in Montejaque (Malaga), told me that it could be from a Valencian settler and that the surname had been castellanized through the census, and I discovered that it used to be done in those times. Maybe later I'll do the genealogical study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    My last name is attributed to a gentleman of the Cid. I spoke online with a genealogist who, because of the provenance in Montejaque (Malaga), told me that it could be from a Valencian settler and that the surname had been castellanized through the census, and I discovered that it used to be done in those times. Maybe later I'll do the genealogical study.
    Hello Carlos.

    Good morning. As the hour of Spain is 5 hours after the hour of Brasilia, I'll give you good afternoon

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    @Duarte
    Cleopatra loved Italian Men, Obviously :) Caesar and Mark Antony live through You & Bro!

    I chose those names to defy Dr. @Fatherland “Identity Crisis” diagnosis. LOL

    I know that I sound totally arrogant, but that's the point, by naming my Kits Cesare, Marco Antonio, and Caligola I’m doubling down and confirming: “I’m comfortable in my own skin” regardless of genetic accuracy.

    And it’s also Fun! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Duarte
    Cleopatra loved Italian Men, Obviously :) Caesar and Mark Antony live through You & Bro!

    I chose those names to defy Dr. @Fatherland “Identity Crisis” diagnosis. LOL

    I know that I sound totally arrogant, but that's the point, by naming my Kits Cesare, Marco Antonio, and Caligola I’m doubling down and confirming: “I’m comfortable in my own skin” regardless of genetic accuracy.

    And it’s also Fun! :)
    LMAO

    Big hug and a nice weekend dear friend

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Placement on a PCA is not going to determine to whom any of these samples are most closely related. Don't get me wrong: I like PCAs. They're easy to visualize. However, we need all of the statistical tools as well, old as well as new.

    I know some people would desperately like Etruscans to be related to their chosen group, or early Romans, or later Imperial Romans, and on and on for every ancient sample. Some people want them to be more "northern"; some more "southern".

    The analysis will show what it will show. The important thing is to finally settle some of the greatest mysteries we have about the "identity" of ancient peoples.
    Indeed. I was just kidding when I suggested he could be Venetian, even if the guy had shared ancestry with Iberians rather than being Iberian properly.
    MTA results shouldn't be taken literally anyway, as I myself pointed out in this thread. For example, the Illyrian as my closest pop may be useful as a clue, but the distance suggested by the tool must be just "accidental", after all, even if Illyrian and I share ancestry, Veneto was influenced by several other different people in the last millennia, including Romans (South Italians). So... I'm certainly not an Illyrian living fossil. :) On the other hand, Venetians must be related to them in a significant way, compared to many other Italians. I wonder, in Venetian context, if it has something to do with Adriatic Veneti bringing this type of ancestry from Balkans?

    Soon we'll have more Etruscans, Romans etc. samples. It'll be interesting to see how we're related to them according to MyTrueAncestry.

    As for wanting Romans to be more Northern (Italian?) or Southern, well... It is what it is, as you always say. I think "knowing" how it likely was is better than "what" it was per se. I.e., the biggest pleasure is mostly in having an answer imo. Any, as long as we know it must be close enough to the truth. But of course, when our own ancestry is well explained, it's even better, 'cause the intellectual curiosity tend to be higher here. Normal. I'm particularly happy in knowing Italian genetic history is being studied more deeply.

    Plus, If I understand right the leak, even if the first Latins to reach Latium were North Italian-like, they soon became South Italian-like. So the "glory" of Rome would have correlated to a "Southern" autosomal, yes? If I'm not missing something, they did what they did, achieve what they achieve, already as Southerners, in the fashion of Greeks. :)

    @Duarte
    Do you have by any chance info on this Cisalpine Gaul individual? I confess I didn't know abt. the existance of such sample.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    While it may provide clues on real ancestry or shared ancestry, in my opinion it should not be taken too literally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    @Duarte
    Do you have by any chance info on this Cisalpine Gaul individual? I confess I didn't know abt. the existance of such sample.
    Hello Regio X

    Cisalpine Gaul (590 AD) - SZ45 - Szólád - Pannonia;





    You can see more details on the same paper about the Iberian / Piedmont (670 AD) (8.625) - CL94, from Collegno.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-d4...w?usp=drivesdk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hello Regio X

    Cisalpine Gaul (590 AD) - SZ45 - Szólád - Pannonia;





    You can see more details on the same paper about the Iberian / Piedmont (670 AD) (8.625) - CL94, from Collegno.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-d4...w?usp=drivesdk
    Forgive my ignorance, but what do TSI and IBS stand for next to the red and greenish squares in the key ?
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Indeed. I was just kidding when I suggested he could be Venetian, even if the guy had shared ancestry with Iberians rather than being Iberian properly.
    MTA results shouldn't be taken literally anyway, as I myself pointed out in this thread. For example, the Illyrian as my closest pop may be useful as a clue, but the distance suggested by the tool must be just "accidental", after all, even if Illyrian and I share ancestry, Veneto was influenced by several other different people in the last millennia, including Romans (South Italians). So... I'm certainly not an Illyrian living fossil. :) On the other hand, Venetians must be related to them in a significant way, compared to many other Italians. I wonder, in Venetian context, if it has something to do with Adriatic Veneti bringing this type of ancestry from Balkans?

    Soon we'll have more Etruscans, Romans etc. samples. It'll be interesting to see how we're related to them according to MyTrueAncestry.

    As for wanting Romans to be more Northern (Italian?) or Southern, well... It is what it is, as you always say. I think "knowing" how it likely was is better than "what" it was per se. I.e., the biggest pleasure is mostly in having an answer imo. Any, as long as we know it must be close enough to the truth. But of course, when our own ancestry is well explained, it's even better, 'cause the intellectual curiosity tend to be higher here. Normal. I'm particularly happy in knowing Italian genetic history is being studied more deeply.

    Plus, If I understand right the leak, even if the first Latins to reach Latium were North Italian-like, they soon became South Italian-like. So the "glory" of Rome would have correlated to a "Southern" autosomal, yes? If I'm not missing something, they did what they did, achieve what they achieve, already as Southerners, in the fashion of Greeks. :)

    @Duarte
    Do you have by any chance info on this Cisalpine Gaul individual? I confess I didn't know abt. the existance of such sample.
    You never even came to my mind in this context, Regio. You're one of the most objective of posters. Some people do, however, have, for personal reasons, their own "ax to grind" as they say in America. :)

    This is all conjecture until we have the samples from Moots, this paper if it's different, and hopefully, future ones from lots of other cultures in Italy, including some Terramare, samples from the ancient Veneto, from the Ligures and Celt Ligurians, some samples from the Neolithic and Bronze Age in Calabria, eastern Sicily, Puglia, colonization sites in Magna Graecia, Classical Greece including the islands and on and on, even Greek settlements in Rhodes, for example, or Phocaea.

    So, my ideas are just "guesses" as are those of other people here and on other sites. I'm certainly not married to mine, and neither should they be married to theirs.

    As for the "accomplishments" of the Romans, they span a huge period from the beginning of the Republic to the Imperial period to the fall. Different types of people may have contributed relatively more to one period than to another. Were the founders and early leaders of the Republic, particularly the "patricians", more "Northern Italian" like? I don't know. Were people like Cicero, a plebeian, more "Northern Italian" like or as a Plebeian more "Southern Italian" like? , Niebur, a 19th century historian, thought the Plebeians were foreigners who settled in early Roman who got citizenship. I don't know and maybe we'll never know. Even if they were foreigners, foreigners from where? Or were they the "original" inhabitants when the Latini arrived? I don't know yet.

    "From 494 to 287 BC, the so-called "Conflict of the Orders" resulted in the establishment of plebeian offices (the tribunes and plebeian aediles), the publication of the laws (the Law of the Twelve Tables), the establishment of the right of plebeian–patrician intermarriage (by the passage of the Lex Canuleia), the opening of the highest offices of government and some state priesthoods to the plebeians and passage of legislation (the Lex Hortensia) that made resolutions passed by the assembly of plebeians, the concilium plebis, binding on all citizens."

    This inclusion of other groups, often hostile groups, was part of the genius of the Romans, and the thing I like best about them.

    "During the Second Samnite War (326–304 BC), plebeians who had risen to power through these social reforms began to acquire the aura of nobilitas, "nobility" (more literally "notability"), marking the creation of a ruling elite of nobiles that allied the interests of patricians and noble plebeians.[2] From the mid-4th century to the early 3rd century BC, several plebeian–patrician "tickets" for the consulship repeated joint terms, suggesting a deliberate political strategy of cooperation.[3] Although nobilitas was not a formal social rank during the Republican era, in general, a plebeian who had attained the consulship was regarded as having brought nobility to his family. Such a man was a novus homo ("new man"), a self-made noble, and his sons and descendants were nobiles.[4]
    "Marius and Cicero are notable examples of novi homines in the late Republic, when many of Rome's richest and most powerful men—such as Lucullus, Crassus, and Pompeius—were plebeian nobles. Some or perhaps many noble plebeians, including Cicero and Lucullus, aligned their political interests with the faction of Optimates, conservatives who sought to preserve senatorial prerogatives. By contrast, the Populares, which sought to champion the plebs in the sense of "common people", were sometimes led by patricians such as Julius Caesar and Clodius Pulcher."


    Marius famously married into the family of Julius Caesar. By the time of the Empire, we have people like Agrippa, a plebeian of low birth who married into the family of Augustus and whose descendants were Emperors . Was he part "Southern Italian" like? Then we have Livy, who seems to have been from Northern Italy. Many of the engineers who built all those roads and aqueducts all over Europe, and formed the first legions, and managed provinces, and worked in the law courts, helping to create the basis of the law of much of Europe, would have included many Southern Italian like "Romans".


    Going all the way back to the earlier Romans, there would have been no Rome without the Etruscans, from whom they borrowed a great deal. However, from whom did the Etruscans learn those things? They learned from the Greeks and the Phoenicians. Cultures build one upon another. Modern populations are similarly one layer of ancient groups on top of another, then subject to drift.

    I think there's plenty of "glory" to go around. I find the kind of hyper-identification of certain people on other sites with one group they want to claim as ancestors to the exclusion of all others, and the actual attempt, certainly in the past, to actually want to change the "ethnicity" of certain groups because they don't like their modern descendants really upsetting as well as clearly just wrong both factually and ethically.

    Now I sound like a preachy Sunday school teacher, and in a response to someone who has nothing at all to do with the issues that bother me, but I guess I just took the opportunity to "unload" a little bit. Sorry. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, but what do TSI and IBS stand for next to the red and greenish squares in the key ?
    Answer:

    There are 26 different populations which are part of our study from many different locations around the globe. The following table lists these populations and indicates what data we currently have available for them.
    Population Code Population Description Super Population Code Sequence Data Available Alignment Data Available Variant Data Available
    CHB Han Chinese in Beijing, China EAS 1 1 1
    JPT Japanese in Tokyo, Japan EAS 1 1 1
    CHS Southern Han Chinese EAS 1 1 1
    CDX Chinese Dai in Xishuangbanna, China EAS 1 1 1
    KHV Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam EAS 1 1 1
    CEU Utah Residents (CEPH) with Northern and Western European Ancestry EUR 1 1 1
    TSI Toscani in Italia EUR 1 1 1
    FIN Finnish in Finland EUR 1 1 1
    GBR British in England and Scotland EUR 1 1 1
    IBS Iberian Population in Spain EUR 1 1 1
    YRI Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria AFR 1 1 1
    LWK Luhya in Webuye, Kenya AFR 1 1 1
    GWD Gambian in Western Divisions in the Gambia AFR 1 1 1
    MSL Mende in Sierra Leone AFR 1 1 1
    ESN Esan in Nigeria AFR 1 1 1
    ASW Americans of African Ancestry in SW USA AFR 1 1 1
    ACB African Caribbeans in Barbados AFR 1 1 1
    MXL Mexican Ancestry from Los Angeles USA AMR 1 1 1
    PUR Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico AMR 1 1 1
    CLM Colombians from Medellin, Colombia AMR 1 1 1
    PEL Peruvians from Lima, Peru AMR 1 1 1
    GIH Gujarati Indian from Houston, Texas SAS 1 1 1
    PJL Punjabi from Lahore, Pakistan SAS 1 1 1
    BEB Bengali from Bangladesh SAS 1 1 1
    STU Sri Lankan Tamil from the UK SAS 1 1 1
    ITU Indian Telugu from the UK SAS 1 1 1
    These populations have been divided into 5 super populations

    • AFR, African
    • AMR, Ad Mixed American
    • EAS, East Asian
    • EUR, European
    • SAS, South Asian

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    EDIT... delete... redundant...

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    That Iberian sample is half Catalan, and half from Andalusia, but I don't know whether it's the western or eastern half, which, from what I remember, skew somewhat differently.

    Some people make a distinction between TSI and other Tuscan samples, claiming TSI is more "southern". I get hits to both and the differences are minimal.

    These are the 1000 Genomes reference samples. If they'd used a difference reference set the information might have been more fine-grained.

    SZ43 (3.6) is my closest match, then CL36 (4.5), then SZ36 (6.8). I think SZ36 is pretty close to Tuscans. I have no idea why CL36 doesn't appear on the chart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Answer:

    [FONT="]There are 26 different populations which are part of our study from many different locations around the globe. The following table lists these populations and indicates what data we currently have available for them.[/FONT]
    Population Code Population Description Super Population Code Sequence Data Available Alignment Data Available Variant Data Available
    CHB Han Chinese in Beijing, China EAS 1 1 1
    JPT Japanese in Tokyo, Japan EAS 1 1 1
    CHS Southern Han Chinese EAS 1 1 1
    CDX Chinese Dai in Xishuangbanna, China EAS 1 1 1
    KHV Kinh in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam EAS 1 1 1
    CEU Utah Residents (CEPH) with Northern and Western European Ancestry EUR 1 1 1
    TSI Toscani in Italia EUR 1 1 1
    FIN Finnish in Finland EUR 1 1 1
    GBR British in England and Scotland EUR 1 1 1
    IBS Iberian Population in Spain EUR 1 1 1
    YRI Yoruba in Ibadan, Nigeria AFR 1 1 1
    LWK Luhya in Webuye, Kenya AFR 1 1 1
    GWD Gambian in Western Divisions in the Gambia AFR 1 1 1
    MSL Mende in Sierra Leone AFR 1 1 1
    ESN Esan in Nigeria AFR 1 1 1
    ASW Americans of African Ancestry in SW USA AFR 1 1 1
    ACB African Caribbeans in Barbados AFR 1 1 1
    MXL Mexican Ancestry from Los Angeles USA AMR 1 1 1
    PUR Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico AMR 1 1 1
    CLM Colombians from Medellin, Colombia AMR 1 1 1
    PEL Peruvians from Lima, Peru AMR 1 1 1
    GIH Gujarati Indian from Houston, Texas SAS 1 1 1
    PJL Punjabi from Lahore, Pakistan SAS 1 1 1
    BEB Bengali from Bangladesh SAS 1 1 1
    STU Sri Lankan Tamil from the UK SAS 1 1 1
    ITU Indian Telugu from the UK SAS 1 1 1
    These populations have been divided into 5 super populations
    • AFR, African
    • AMR, Ad Mixed American
    • EAS, East Asian
    • EUR, European
    • SAS, South Asian
    Thanks, Duarte ! Thanks, Angela !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That Iberian sample is half Catalan, and half from Andalusia, but I don't know whether it's the western or eastern half, which, from what I remember, skew somewhat differently.

    Some people make a distinction between TSI and other Tuscan samples, claiming TSI is more "southern". I get hits to both and the differences are minimal.

    These are the 1000 Genomes reference samples. If they'd used a difference reference set the information might have been more fine-grained.

    SZ43 (3.6) is my closest match, then CL36 (4.5), then SZ36 (6.8). I think SZ36 is pretty close to Tuscans. I have no idea why CL36 doesn't appear on the chart.
    SZ45, which they're calling Cisalpine Gaul, who would be people living in Northern Italy after, perhaps, the Gallic invasions, is, they say, 50% IBS or Iberian, and 50% Southeastern European, which I think means Greek like. On the admixture chart it doesn't look like that at all to me. The sample has some IBS material, but what makes him different is Great Britain like material, which of course is a blend of "Celt" and "Germanic", indeed perhaps Langobardic.

    He's also found in Pannonia (present day Hungary), and nowhere near Cisalpine Gaul. When we get some samples from Cisalpine Gaul before the Romans settled people there, we'll see how similar they are to this sample. If there were people like that there, perhaps they were also there by the time of Collegno, which is why I've always been leery of assuming that all people in Northern Italy at the time the Langobards arrived were like some of the more "southern" like Collegno samples. Then, and now, the people in Northern Italy might have still been pretty heterogeneous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea why CL36 doesn't appear on the chart.

    CL36:
    mtDNA: X2b

    CL36 is close to modern Emilians. I made a wild nMonte run just to check what he could be composed of:

    [1] "distance%=2.3663"

    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL36

    Croatia_vLBA,58.6
    Hallstatt_Bylany,21.6
    Samaritan,11
    Anatolia_MLBA,4.6
    Mozabite,2.5
    Beaker_Northern_Italy,1.7
    Croatia_MBA,0
    Hungary_BA:I1504,0
    Beaker_Central_Europe,0
    Peloponnese_N_o:I3920,0
    Mycenaean,0
    Anatolia_BA,0
    Anatolia_EBA,0
    Anatolia_IA,0
    Druze,0
    Levant_BA,0
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe,0
    England_Roman_o:3DT26,0

    Seems to be predominantly a mix of Iron Age east-central Italians (if they happened to be similar to LBA Dalmatia) and some substantial Celtic admixture. But some later exotic accretions are not lacking, especially Samaritan-like admixture. Very interesting.







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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    CL36:
    mtDNA: X2b

    CL36 is close to modern Emilians. I made a wild nMonte run just to check what he could be composed of:

    [1] "distance%=2.3663"

    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL36

    Croatia_vLBA,58.6
    Hallstatt_Bylany,21.6
    Samaritan,11
    Anatolia_MLBA,4.6
    Mozabite,2.5
    Beaker_Northern_Italy,1.7
    Croatia_MBA,0
    Hungary_BA:I1504,0
    Beaker_Central_Europe,0
    Peloponnese_N_o:I3920,0
    Mycenaean,0
    Anatolia_BA,0
    Anatolia_EBA,0
    Anatolia_IA,0
    Druze,0
    Levant_BA,0
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe,0
    England_Roman_o:3DT26,0

    Seems to be predominantly a mix of Iron Age east-central Italians (if they happened to be similar to LBA Dalmatia) and some substantial Celtic admixture. But some later exotic accretions are not lacking, especially Samaritan-like admixture. Very interesting.






    From the PCA it looked like the Romagna to me. I just wondered why the paper didn't include it.

    No offense intended, my friend, but I'm not much for nmonte runs with people from such vastly different time periods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From the PCA it looked like the Romagna to me. I just wondered why the paper didn't include it.

    No offense intended, my friend, but I'm not much for nmonte runs with people from such vastly different time periods.
    I should have put everything in quotes. I forgot to do that. All the material I posted was extracted from the BLOG Eurogenes. It's not my job. I also take this opportunity to repair the error of not mentioning the source :)

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    It's bed-time here, so too late for me to do it now, but it could be fun to gedmatch it (kit: LN6607043) with Eurogenes K15 and then put it on this map :

    https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I'll give it a try... tomorrow.

    SZ45 "Pannonia"



    Edit : Here it is.

    Last edited by hrvclv; 25-05-19 at 13:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    CL36:
    mtDNA: X2b

    CL36 is close to modern Emilians. I made a wild nMonte run just to check what he could be composed of:

    [1] "distance%=2.3663"

    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL36

    Croatia_vLBA,58.6
    Hallstatt_Bylany,21.6
    Samaritan,11
    Anatolia_MLBA,4.6
    Mozabite,2.5
    Beaker_Northern_Italy,1.7
    Croatia_MBA,0
    Hungary_BA:I1504,0
    Beaker_Central_Europe,0
    Peloponnese_N_o:I3920,0
    Mycenaean,0
    Anatolia_BA,0
    Anatolia_EBA,0
    Anatolia_IA,0
    Druze,0
    Levant_BA,0
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe,0
    England_Roman_o:3DT26,0

    Seems to be predominantly a mix of Iron Age east-central Italians (if they happened to be similar to LBA Dalmatia) and some substantial Celtic admixture. But some later exotic accretions are not lacking, especially Samaritan-like admixture. Very interesting.






    further PCA with extras






    and your map with BB Italian North added ...................which makes me think is it really close to Emilians?



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, but what do TSI and IBS stand for next to the red and greenish squares in the key ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_Genomes_Project

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    PCA with all the samples from Lombard period cemetery at Collegno (6th-7th century A.D.), Italy




    PCA with all the samples from Lombard period cemetery at Szólád (6th century A.D.), Hungary




    PCA with Collegno and Szólád samples



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some Tuscan like relatives of mine were clearly stranded in Pannonia, and an Emilian relative was buried at Collegno. :)

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    How do populations relate to each other in MyTrueAncestry.com





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    My Glorified Video-Results (reloaded)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    My Glorified Video-Results (reloaded)

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    Very Cool. Veni, vidi, vici

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