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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Very Cool. Veni, vidi, vici
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    My Glorified Video-Results (reloaded)

    Geno Invicta




    Starring: Caesar, Mark Antony, Cleopatra, Vercingetorix, ...
    Totally Cool :)


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    New utility in MyTrueAncestry following my advice. Reaching the king the easy one for me, you just have to check my ancestral line.


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    MyTrueAncestry.com

    Thanks @Carlos. Nice :)











    Last edited by Duarte; 26-05-19 at 17:29. Reason: Title included.
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    Top III
    1 Ancient Group - SZ36 C-Roman
    2 Modern Group - SZ40 H-Roman
    3 Similar Samples - CL121 H-Roman

    others ... redundant or too far ...


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    @ Carlos @ Duarte

    Does either of you guys have any idea what the heck can connect us westerners to that Illyrian sample that keeps popping up among our "ancestors" ? Gallo-Roman makes sense. Even the Szolad samples can be explained as mercenary expatriates. But Illyrian ? Was the Illyrian also a mercenary from the west ?

    Same goes for the Thracian, by the way.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Sounds like "The Gladiator", everything is Jewish,in the Dacian paper(Rodewald),they used Middle Bronze Age samples to prove closeness to North Italy.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @ Carlos @ Duarte

    Does either of you guys have any idea what the heck can connect us westerners to that Illyrian sample that keeps popping up among our "ancestors" ? Gallo-Roman makes sense. Even the Szolad samples can be explained as mercenary expatriates. But Illyrian ? Was the Illyrian also a mercenary from the west ?

    Same goes for the Thracian, by the way.
    Hello hrvclv,
    These samples are from Bronze Age Balkan individuals, basically a mixture of EEF with BA, see figure below.

    Illyrian / Dalmatia (1200 BC) - I3313
    Illyrian / Dalmatia (1600 BC) - I4332




    The following is a paper with a full study on the samples found in the Balkans. Reading can be tiring, but it is enlightening.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/135616v1.full

    The Gauls were established in Pannonia and Illyria and in the year 300 BC began a major invasion of the Balkans in which they defeated the Illyrians and this invasion culminated with the occupation of Greece. See the following text, from Wikipedia in English. It is complete and enlightening. The Gauls, IMO, taken Illyrian DNA to western europe, so it is in us.

    Celtic settlement of Southeast Europe


    From their new bases in northern Illyria and Pannonia, the Gallic invasions climaxed in the early 3rd century BC, with the invasion of Greece. The 279 BC invasion of Greece proper was preceded by a series of other military campaigns waged in the southern Balkans and against the kingdom of Macedonia, favoured by the state of confusion ensuing from the disputed succession after Alexander the Great's death. A part of the invasion crossed over to Anatolia and eventually settled in the area that came to be named after them, Galatia.

    From the 4th century BC, Celtic groups pushed into the Carpathian region and the Danube basin, coinciding with their movement into Italy. The Boii and Volcae were two large Celtic confederacies who generally cooperated in their campaigns. Splinter groups moved south via two major routes: one following the Danube river, another eastward from Italy. According to legend, 300,000 Celts moved into Italy and Illyria.[1] By the 3rd century, the native inhabitants of Pannonia were almost completely Celticized.[2] La Tène remains are found widely in Pannonia, but finds westward beyond the Tisza river and south beyond the Sava are rather sparse.[2] These finds are deemed to have been locally produced Norican-Pannonian variation of Celtic culture. Nevertheless, features are encountered that suggest ongoing contacts with distant provinces such as Iberia. The fertile lands around the Pannonian rivers enabled the Celts to establish themselves easily, developing their agriculture and pottery, and at the same time exploiting the rich mines of modern Poland. Thus, it appears that the Celts had created a new homeland for themselves in the southern part of Central Europe; in a region stretching from Poland to the river Danube.

    The political situation in the northern Balkans was in constant flux with various tribes dominant over their neighbours at any one time. Within tribes, military expeditions were conducted by "an enterprising and mobile warrior class able from time to time to conquer large areas and to exploit their population".[2]The political situation in the Balkans during the 4th century BC played to the Celts' advantage. The Illyrians had been waging war against the Greeks, leaving their western flank weak. While Alexander ruled Greece, the Celts dared not to push south near Greece. Therefore, early Celtic expeditions were concentrated against Illyrian tribes.[3]
    The first Balkan tribe to be defeated by the Celts was the Illyric Autariatae, who, during the 4th century BC, had enjoyed a hegemony over much of the central Balkans, centred on the Morava valley.[2] An account of Celtic tactics is revealed in their attacks on the Ardiaei.
    In 335 BC, the Celts sent representatives to pay homage to Alexander the Great, while Macedon was engaged in wars against Thracians on its northern border. Some historians suggest that this 'diplomatic' act was actually an evaluation of Macedonian military might.[3] After the death of Alexander the Great, Celtic armies began to bear down on the southern regions, threatening the Greek kingdom of Macedonia and the rest of Greece. In 310 BC, the Celtic general Molistomos attacked deep into Illyrian territory, subduing the Dardanians, Paeonians and Triballi. The new Macedonian king Cassander felt compelled to take his old Illyrian enemies under his protection.[3] In 298 BC, the Celts attempted a penetrating attack into Thrace and Macedon, where they suffered a heavy defeat near Haemus Mons at the hands of Cassander. However, another body of Celts led by the general Cambaules marched on Thrace, capturing large areas.[1] The Celtic tribe of the Serdi[4] lived in Thrace and founded the city of Serdica, present day Sofia.
    The Celtic military pressure toward Greece in the southern Balkans reached its turning point in 281 BC. The collapse of Lysimachus' successor kingdom in Thrace opened the way for the migration.[5] The cause for this is explained by Pausanias as greed for loot,[6] by Justin as a result of overpopulation,[7] and by Memnon as the result of famine.[8] According to Pausanias, an initial probing raid led by Cambaules withdrew when they realized they were too few in numbers.[6] In 280 BC, a great army comprising about 85,000 warriors[9] left Pannonia, split into three divisions, and marched south in a great expedition[10][11] to Macedon and central Greece. Under the leadership of Cerethrius, 20,000 men moved against the Thracians and Triballi. Another division, led by Brennus[12] and Acichorius[13][14] moved against the Paionians, while the third division, headed by Bolgios, aimed for the Macedonians and Illyrians.[6

    Bolgios inflicted heavy losses on the Macedonians, whose young king, Ptolemy Keraunos, was captured and decapitated. However, Bolgios' contingent was repulsed by the Macedonian nobleman Sosthenes, and satisfied with the loot they had won, Bolgios' contingents turned back. Sosthenes, in turn, was attacked and defeated by Brennus and his division, who were then free to ravage the country.
    After these expeditions returned home, Brennus urged and persuaded them to mount a third united expedition against central Greece, led by himself and Acichorius.[6] The reported strength of the army of 152,000 infantry and 24,400 cavalry is impossibly large.[15] The actual number of horsemen has to be intended half as big: Pausanias describes how they used a tactic called trimarcisia, where each cavalryman was supported by two mounted servants, who could supply him with a spare horse should he have to be dismounted, or take his place in the battle, should he be killed or wounded.[16][17]
    A Greek coalition made up of Aetolians, Boeotians, Athenians, Phocians, and other Greeks north of Corinth took up quarters at the narrow pass of Thermopylae, on the east coast of central Greece. During the initial assault, Brennus' forces suffered heavy losses. Hence he decided to send a large force under Acichorius against Aetolia. The Aetolian detachment, as Brennus hoped, left Thermopylae to defend their homes. The Aetolians joined the defence en masse – the old and women joining the fight.[18] Realizing that the Gallic sword was dangerous only at close quarters, the Aetolians resorted to skirmishing tactics.[5] According to Pausanias, only half the number that had set out for Aetolia returned.[6]
    Eventually, Brennus found a way around the pass at Thermopylae, but by then the Greeks had escaped by sea.
    Brennus pushed on to Delphi, where he was defeated and forced to retreat, after which he died of wounds sustained in the battle. His army fell back to the river Spercheios, where it was routed by the Thessalians and Malians.
    Both historians who relate the attack on Delphi, Pausanias and Junianus Justinus, say that the Gauls were defeated and driven off. They were overtaken by a violent thunderstorm, which made it impossible to manoeuvre or even hear their orders. The night that followed was frosty, and in the morning the Greeks attacked them from both sides. Brennus was wounded and the Gauls fell back, killing those of their own wounded who were unable to retreat. That night, a panic fell on the camp, as the Gauls divided into factions and fought amongst themselves. They were joined by Acichorius and the rest of the army, but the Greeks forced them into a full-scale retreat. Brennus took his own life by drinking neat wine according to Pausanias, or by stabbing himself according to Justinus. Pressed by the Aetolians, the Gauls fell back to the Spercheios, where the waiting Thessalians and Malians destroyed them.[16][19]
    In spite of the Greek accounts about the defeat of the Gauls, the Roman literary tradition preferred a far different version.[clarification needed] Strabo reports a story told in his time of a semi-legendary treasure – the aurum Tolosanum, fifteen thousand talents of gold and silver – supposed to have been the cursed gold looted during the sack of Delphi and brought back to Tolosa (modern Toulouse, France) by the Tectosages, who were said to have been part of the invading army.
    More than a century and a half after the alleged sack, the Romans ruled Gallia Narbonensis. In 105 BC, while marching to Arausio, the Proconsul of Cisalpine GaulQuintus Servilius Caepio plundered the sanctuaries of the town of Tolosa, whose inhabitants had joined the Cimbri, finding over 50,000 15 lb. bars of gold and 10,000 15 lb. bars of silver. The riches of Tolosa were shipped back to Rome, but only the silver made it: the gold was stolen by a band of marauders, who were believed to have been hired by Caepio himself and to have killed the legion guarding it. The Gold of Tolosa was never found, and was said to have been passed all the way down to the last heir of the Servilii Caepiones, Marcus Junius Brutus.
    In 105 BC, Caepio refused to co-operate with his superior officer, Gnaeus Mallius Maximus, because he thought of him as a novus homo, deciding by himself to engage in battle against the Cimbri, on the Rhone. There, the Roman army suffered a crushing defeat and complete destruction, in the so-called Battle of Arausio(modern Orange).
    Upon his return to Rome, Caepio was tried for "the loss of his Army" and embezzlement. He was convicted and given the harshest sentence allowable; he was stripped of his Roman citizenship, forbidden fire and water within 800 miles of Rome, fined 15,000 talents(about 825,000 lb) of gold, and forbidden from seeing or speaking to his friends or family until he had left for exile.
    He spent the rest of his life in exile in Smyrna in Asia Minor. His defeat and ensuing ruin were looked upon as a punishment for his sacrilegious theft.
    Strabo distances himself from this account, arguing that the defeated Gauls were in no position to carry off such spoils, and that, in any case, Delphi had already been despoiled of its treasure by the Phocians during the Third Sacred War in the previous century.[20]However, Brennus' legendary pillage of Delphi is presented as fact by some popular modern historians.[21]
    Most scholars deem the Greek campaign a disaster for the Celts.
    Some of the survivors of the Greek campaign, led by Comontoris (one of Brennus' generals) settled in Thrace. In 277 BC, Antigonus II Gonatas defeated the Gauls at the Battle of Lysimachia and the survivors retreated, founding a short-lived city-state named Tyle.[22] Another group of Gauls, who split off from Brennus' army in 281 BC, were transported over to Asia Minor by Nicomedes Ito help him defeat his brother and secure the throne of Bithynia. They eventually settled in the region that came to be named after them, Galatia. They were defeated by Antiochus I, and as a result, they were confined to barren highlands in the centre of Anatolia.[23]
    Celtic groups were still the pre-eminent political units in the northern Balkans from the 4th to the 1st century BC. The Boii controlled most of northern Pannonia during the 2nd century BC, and are also mentioned as having occupied the territory of modern Slovakia. We learn of other tribes of the Boian confederation inhabiting Pannonia. There were the Taurisci in the upper Sava valley, west of Sisak, as well as the Anarti, Osi and Cotini in the Carpathian basin. In the lower Sava valley, the Scordisciwielded much power over their neighbours for over a century.
    The later half of the 1st century BC brought much change to the power relations of barbarian tribes in Pannonia. The defeat of the Boian confederation by the Geto-Dacian king Burebista significantly curtailed Celtic control of the Carpathian basin, and some of the Celticization was reversed. Yet, more Celtic tribes appear in sources. The Hercuniates and Latobici migrated from the northern regions (Germania). Altogether new tribes are encountered, bearing Latin names (such as the Arabiates), possibly representing new creations carved out of the defeated Boian confederation. To further weaken Celtic hegemony in Pannonia, the Romans moved the Pannonian-Illyrian Azali to northern Pannonia. The political dominance previously enjoyed by the Celts was overshadowed by newer barbarian confederations, such the Marcomanni and Iazyges. Their ethnic independence was gradually lost as they were absorbed by the surrounding Dacian, Illyrian and Germanic peoples, although Celtic names survive until the 3rd century AD.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Duarte

    Thank you ever so much for going to such great lengths. It's all extremely helpful, and very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @ Carlos @ Duarte
    Does either of you guys have any idea what the heck can connect us westerners to that Illyrian sample that keeps popping up among our "ancestors" ? Gallo-Roman makes sense. Even the Szolad samples can be explained as mercenary expatriates. But Illyrian ? Was the Illyrian also a mercenary from the west ?
    Same goes for the Thracian, by the way.
    The truth is that I want MyTrueAncestry to target the Celtiberians and Iberians.


    If we all finally come from populations of the past that were scarce in number by comparing them with the current population number, it is not surprising that the Illyrians were related to the Gauls, Celts, Celtiberians, as well as the geographical situation with pressures from all cardinal points. Forged in them a predisposition to move and move unlike territories such as the peninsular or more geographically defined territories as further north or as France. The geographical situation of the Illyrians I think should be like an express pot. Conclusion: Indo-European, Celtic and some displacement genetic similarities, but less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @Duarte

    Thank you ever so much for going to such great lengths. It's all extremely helpful, and very interesting.
    You’re welcome hrvclv :)

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    Thanks, Duarte.
    Thanks, Angela. Not to sorry. That was an interesting explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You never even came to my mind in this context, Regio. You're one of the most objective of posters. Some people do, however, have, for personal reasons, their own "ax to grind" as they say in America. :)
    This is all conjecture until we have the samples from Moots, this paper if it's different, and hopefully, future ones from lots of other cultures in Italy, including some Terramare, samples from the ancient Veneto, from the Ligures and Celt Ligurians, some samples from the Neolithic and Bronze Age in Calabria, eastern Sicily, Puglia, colonization sites in Magna Graecia, Classical Greece including the islands and on and on, even Greek settlements in Rhodes, for example, or Phocaea.
    So, my ideas are just "guesses" as are those of other people here and on other sites. I'm certainly not married to mine, and neither should they be married to theirs.
    As for the "accomplishments" of the Romans, they span a huge period from the beginning of the Republic to the Imperial period to the fall. Different types of people may have contributed relatively more to one period than to another. Were the founders and early leaders of the Republic, particularly the "patricians", more "Northern Italian" like? I don't know. Were people like Cicero, a plebeian, more "Northern Italian" like or as a Plebeian more "Southern Italian" like? , Niebur, a 19th century historian, thought the Plebeians were foreigners who settled in early Roman who got citizenship. I don't know and maybe we'll never know. Even if they were foreigners, foreigners from where? Or were they the "original" inhabitants when the Latini arrived? I don't know yet.
    "From 494 to 287 BC, the so-called "Conflict of the Orders" resulted in the establishment of plebeian offices (the tribunes and plebeian aediles), the publication of the laws (the Law of the Twelve Tables), the establishment of the right of plebeian–patrician intermarriage (by the passage of the Lex Canuleia), the opening of the highest offices of government and some state priesthoods to the plebeians and passage of legislation (the Lex Hortensia) that made resolutions passed by the assembly of plebeians, the concilium plebis, binding on all citizens."

    This inclusion of other groups, often hostile groups, was part of the genius of the Romans, and the thing I like best about them.

    "During the Second Samnite War (326–304 BC), plebeians who had risen to power through these social reforms began to acquire the aura of nobilitas, "nobility" (more literally "notability"), marking the creation of a ruling elite of nobiles that allied the interests of patricians and noble plebeians.[2] From the mid-4th century to the early 3rd century BC, several plebeian–patrician "tickets" for the consulship repeated joint terms, suggesting a deliberate political strategy of cooperation.[3] Although nobilitas was not a formal social rank during the Republican era, in general, a plebeian who had attained the consulship was regarded as having brought nobility to his family. Such a man was a novus homo ("new man"), a self-made noble, and his sons and descendants were nobiles.[4]
    "Marius and Cicero are notable examples of novi homines in the late Republic, when many of Rome's richest and most powerful men—such as Lucullus, Crassus, and Pompeius—were plebeian nobles. Some or perhaps many noble plebeians, including Cicero and Lucullus, aligned their political interests with the faction of Optimates, conservatives who sought to preserve senatorial prerogatives. By contrast, the Populares, which sought to champion the plebs in the sense of "common people", were sometimes led by patricians such as Julius Caesar and Clodius Pulcher."

    Marius famously married into the family of Julius Caesar. By the time of the Empire, we have people like Agrippa, a plebeian of low birth who married into the family of Augustus and whose descendants were Emperors . Was he part "Southern Italian" like? Then we have Livy, who seems to have been from Northern Italy. Many of the engineers who built all those roads and aqueducts all over Europe, and formed the first legions, and managed provinces, and worked in the law courts, helping to create the basis of the law of much of Europe, would have included many Southern Italian like "Romans".

    Going all the way back to the earlier Romans, there would have been no Rome without the Etruscans, from whom they borrowed a great deal. However, from whom did the Etruscans learn those things? They learned from the Greeks and the Phoenicians. Cultures build one upon another. Modern populations are similarly one layer of ancient groups on top of another, then subject to drift.
    I think there's plenty of "glory" to go around. I find the kind of hyper-identification of certain people on other sites with one group they want to claim as ancestors to the exclusion of all others, and the actual attempt, certainly in the past, to actually want to change the "ethnicity" of certain groups because they don't like their modern descendants really upsetting as well as clearly just wrong both factually and ethically.
    Now I sound like a preachy Sunday school teacher, and in a response to someone who has nothing at all to do with the issues that bother me, but I guess I just took the opportunity to "unload" a little bit. Sorry. :)
    Thanks. Well, sometimes I'm naturally objective, other times I at least try to be. :) Anyway, I'm inclined to be much less interested in "narratives", in "selling" (rather than "sharing") ideas, and much more interested in knowing the facts per se, as far as possible.

    As for Romans, I'm really new on the subject. Knowing more about them is in my "to do list". :) The few I knew I learned with a brother, who almost always talks on Romans in chit-chats. An enthusiast, as you, I guess. But I'm affraid he doesn't follow genetics, at all. je je je
    One of my birthday gifts to him was a book you suggested here in Eupedia, about the fall of Rome. :)
    I don't know if he already read. I'll ask him.

    Btw, let's wait and see what the papers show. I should probably have been more precise in what I wrote. I was more focused in the context of the papers, which would intend to clarify who those Romans were genetically, providing clues on their origin. In short, so without intention to be detailed, my point was that South Italian ancestry would have been the main genetic component of proper Romans in the heart of Republic and Empire, along the most of these periods. If the leaks make sense and I understand them right, of course.
    I'm sure there were "contributors" from different backgrounds and places. :)

    I'd ask about this Cisalpine Gaul. You answered first. Thanks.
    So, indeed, there is no sample from Galia Cisalpina proper. Hope the upcoming paper include some.
    I have to read this paper on Lombards in my free time, to understand why this individual was identified as Cisalpine Gaul. I already told my mom about her "matches", and I'd hate to have provided innacurate infos. :)

    @hrvclv @brick
    My mother's close matches would be the Iberian / Piedmont and the supposed Cisalpine Gaul according to MTA, in turn based on K15. On the PCA brick posted, possibly more accurate than K15's, she should be placed - if MTA were "right" - roughly between these two, pending a bit to the Iberian / Piedmont, but it wouldn't make much sense as far as I can see. Too far from Veneto. So not exactly in consonance to the PCA based on K15. MTA doesn't seem to be the last word on genetic similarities anyway. :)
    As per K15 calculator itself, the supposed Gaul would be substantially more "Northern" than her, according to what hrvclv posted.
    Here are our K15 results:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...613#post501613

    My father curiously gets, consistently - in several GedMatch calculators -, traces related to South Asians, but not in comercial c. as 23andMe and MyHeritage. Still, I wonder from where it comes from.

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    @Regio

    I'm sure you know about it, but just in case... have you tried this : https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm ?

    You could submit your mum's and dad's results and see where they end up. As you say, no calculator is "the last word", but changing angles sometimes helps you get extra hints.

    I am well aware of the limitations of K15, by the way. What it gives is just, again, another "angle".

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @Regio
    I'm sure you know about it, but just in case... have you tried this : https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm ?
    You could submit your mum's and dad's results and see where they end up. As you say, no calculator is "the last word", but changing angles sometimes helps you get extra hints.
    I am well aware of the limitations of K15, by the way. What it gives is just, again, another "angle".
    I do know it. It seems better than K15 for this use.
    Here are mine:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...687#post510687
    (I chose badly the colors. Increasing brightness must allow a better view.)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Just to clarify for the people who get decent matches to the modern Emilian like sample, CL36. It was found in Collegno but comes from a later period.

    I wish Amorim et al had been more precise about the date and the context of that burial. I really combed that paper I think, and I couldn't find anything.

    For help in understanding the "ethnicity" of the "Langobard" samples, it might be helpful to read our discussion of the paper and the supplement in this thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Paleogenomics

    For example, it's important to look at whether the analysis shows the sample in question grew up locally, what was buried with the sample. One woman, for example, was buried with eastern French type artifacts. Amorim seems to believe this means "Gallic" input. Was that input recent, however, or just a Northern Italian of the time who happened to have a lot of ancestry from the Gallic migrations of the middle part of the first millennium B.C.

    @Regio,

    I grew up surrounded by Roman ruins: a bridge across the river where I was born, an entire Roman city complete with amphitheater near La Spezia where generations of my family's men have worked and where my father often took me to roam.

    Then, my husband minored in Classics.

    It was pre-ordained that I should be interested in them and study them. :)

    I was also surrounded by Langobard castles. However, they were connected to the detested local aristocracy, the Malaspina, and so while I may have some very minor ancestry from them, I didn't and don't identify with them at all, and had no desire to research them.

    Strangely, I never knew much about the Ligures. Until relatively recently they were a very mysterious people. Still are, although I think it's becoming clear they were Indo-European admixed. I belatedly have started researching them more intensely.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Only for those who have G25 coordinates and are familiar with R. You can create in such case list with 100 samples for free:)

    Just use this file https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EL...e-1xi6UhuKA2HC
    instead of original for nMonte in R.

    Datasheets:

    Ancient unscaled
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/gn73m6cifr...caled.txt?dl=0

    Ancient scaled:
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/od6lgb12rj...caled.txt?dl=0

    Modern unscaled
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=14c...UnVawYm3y42uD9

    Modern scaled
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=14c...3c0AOb9GYvLp-a

    My list for ancient G25 spreadsheet unscaled

    Code:
     ancient unscaled
    
    Sunghir_Medieval:Sunghir6
    0.1993991
    Lithuania_BA:Turlojiske3
    0.2158263
    Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av2
    0.2365608
    Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av1
    0.2377436
    Kazakhstan_Golden_Horde_EuroA29
    0.2412903
    Lithuania_BA:Turlojiske1
    0.3047458
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006
    0.3067279
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns215
    0.3116520
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
    0.3228885
    Beaker_Czech:I5025
    0.3331006
    Scythian_Ukraine:scy009
    0.3442586
    Slavic_Bohemia:RISE569
    0.3516006
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns42
    0.3528031
    Scythian_HungaryA191
    0.3561081
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns153
    0.3602915
    Varna_o:ANI163
    0.3711873
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
    0.3743755
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns19
    0.3829073
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns25
    0.3991591
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns207
    0.3991604
    Scythian_HungaryA197
    0.4058497
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns222
    0.4091137
    Hungary_BA:I1504
    0.4131791
    Beaker_Bavaria:I5531
    0.4146685
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160
    0.4171666
    Lithuania_Late_Antiquity_low_resA171
    0.4187637
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns209
    0.4214534
    Czech_EBA:I5044
    0.4266064
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026
    0.4311728
    CWC_Baltic:Spiginas2
    0.4329630
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021
    0.4339988
    Germany_Medieval_ACD:BIM_33
    0.4367287
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kal009
    0.4371979
    Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns194
    0.4390171
    Germany_Medieval:AED_1135
    0.4482477
    Balkans_BA:I2165
    0.4502588
    Ukraine_Eneolithic:I4110
    0.4549505
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020
    0.4553790
    Beaker_Czech:I7281
    0.4558783
    Hallstatt_BylanyA112
    0.4606441
    Sweden_IA:RISE174
    0.4610813
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
    0.4665062
    Yamnaya_Bulgaria:Bul4
    0.4678483
    Germany_Unetice:I0116
    0.4692132
    Germany_Medieval_ACD:STR_228
    0.4704764
    Hungary_BA:I1502
    0.4723526
    Sintashta_MLBA:I1063
    0.4747399
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL63
    0.4773594
    Germany_Medieval_ACD:STR_220
    0.4783754
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
    0.4823049
    CWC_Poland:N49
    0.4830424
    Krasnoyarsk_MLBA:I1828
    0.4850691
    Hungary_Prescythian_IA:IR1
    0.4875603
    Sweden_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035
    0.4879908
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ18
    0.4882909
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ2
    0.4907036
    Poland_Unetice:RISE109
    0.4911822
    Scythian_Ukraine:scy011
    0.4913197
    Poland_EBA:N17
    0.4925018
    Beaker_Czech:I4891
    0.4935697
    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12031
    0.4937287
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ12
    0.4945584
    Beaker_Czech:I7286
    0.4948333
    Levanluhta_IAA234
    0.4958155
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad_o2:SZ25
    0.4963084
    Hungary_BA:SZ1
    0.4972092
    Scythian_HungaryA195
    0.4980090
    Beaker_The_Netherlands:I4075
    0.4991763
    Srubnaya_MLBA:I0359
    0.4999150
    Beaker_Hungary:I3529
    0.5006935
    Germany_Medieval:AED_249
    0.5009860
    Czech_EBA:I7202
    0.5035792
    Poland_EBA:I6579
    0.5071085
    Sintashta_MLBA:I1012
    0.5071262
    Maitan_MLBA_Alakul:I6793
    0.5084467
    Beaker_Czech:I4888
    0.5084840
    Germany_Medieval:STR_486
    0.5089813
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ42
    0.5098313
    Germany_Medieval_ACD:STR_328
    0.5136088
    Beaker_Bavaria:E09569
    0.5136818
    Beaker_Czech:I7249
    0.5139124
    Beaker_Czech:I5666
    0.5144832
    Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
    0.5147679
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL53
    0.5161560
    Czech_EBA:I4884
    0.5189191
    Germany_Medieval:ALH_3
    0.5199817
    Kairan_MLBA:I4776
    0.5205113
    Krasnoyarsk_MLBA:I3390
    0.5210154
    Beaker_Britain:I5379
    0.5210355
    Ak_Moustafa_MLBA1:I3767
    0.5219511
    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN:I0059
    0.5219847
    Germany_Unetice:I0047
    0.5220862
    Scythian_Ukraine:scy010
    0.5224127
    Beaker_Britain:I6679
    0.5224596
    Czech_EBA:I7201
    0.5225361
    Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL47
    0.5236659
    Hungary_Medieval_Szolad:SZ45
    0.5238654
    Sintashta_MLBA:I0943
    0.5239466
    Alberstedt_LN:I0118
    0.5247237
    Beaker_Britain:I2443
    0.5254608
    .

  17. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Just to clarify for the people who get decent matches to the modern Emilian like sample, CL36. It was found in Collegno but comes from a later period.
    I wish Amorim et al had been more precise about the date and the context of that burial. I really combed that paper I think, and I couldn't find anything.
    For help in understanding the "ethnicity" of the "Langobard" samples, it might be helpful to read our discussion of the paper and the supplement in this thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Paleogenomics
    For example, it's important to look at whether the analysis shows the sample in question grew up locally, what was buried with the sample. One woman, for example, was buried with eastern French type artifacts. Amorim seems to believe this means "Gallic" input. Was that input recent, however, or just a Northern Italian of the time who happened to have a lot of ancestry from the Gallic migrations of the middle part of the first millennium B.C.
    @Regio,
    I grew up surrounded by Roman ruins: a bridge across the river where I was born, an entire Roman city complete with amphitheater near La Spezia where generations of my family's men have worked and where my father often took me to roam.
    Then, my husband minored in Classics.
    It was pre-ordained that I should be interested in them and study them. :)
    I was also surrounded by Langobard castles. However, they were connected to the detested local aristocracy, the Malaspina, and so while I may have some very minor ancestry from them, I didn't and don't identify with them at all, and had no desire to research them.
    Strangely, I never knew much about the Ligures. Until relatively recently they were a very mysterious people. Still are, although I think it's becoming clear they were Indo-European admixed. I belatedly have started researching them more intensely.
    I guess that helps to explain why the "Gaul" was labeled this way. Thanks. If he/she is indeed a close match (in ancestry), that's another story.

    All Italians should be interested in the Roman history. It's enormously important. :)

    I can't wait for all these samples covering the most important historical cultures/groups of Italy, including Ligures, Euganei and many others. It'll be just awesome!

  18. #793
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    @Salento,

    OK, I'm getting sick of you showing up with all these IBD hits and I'm still stuck with one segment with Crete Armenoi! :)

    It can't just be because I only have 23andme, because even my husband gets three.

    I may have to break down and take the Ancestry test. He'll never do it, though. He thinks I'm mad to be playing with this stuff, but he's third generation, if you know what I mean. :)


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    That they are all would be impossible but I believe that Iberians, Celtiberians and maybe one day knows Tartessos should be there already.

  20. #795
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    @Angela I had problems getting Deep Dives with 23andme at first, I re-uploaded a few days later and it worked.
    My understanding is that a new upload is required in order to get Deep Dives. The refresh won’t suffice for it.
    If it doesn’t work and you’ll lose what you already got, try again later, and don’t blame me. lol :)

    about CL36, It’s one of my matches on K36 Ancient too (besides MTA).


  21. #796
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b1a1a - L151
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    Ethnic group
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.









    Last edited by Duarte; 27-05-19 at 23:57. Reason: Added pic.

  22. #797
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    ^`
    Fine, I'm going to look at it.

  23. #798
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Only when looking at this new feature did I remember I have a match with Trypillia, Neolithic 3500 BC.

    The culture dates all the way back to 6000 B.C. David Anthony included a lot of their artifacts in a big show on "Old Europe", which I saw. It was terrific. I posted about it here years ago.

    They always fascinated me, with their seeming custom of burning all their houses down. I speculated at the time that the reason might not be ritual, as most archaeologists seemed to think, but was recurring waves of disease. I was thinking something like tuberculosis from the animals. Maybe it was plague.





    Archaeologists have tried to duplicate how they did such a thorough job of it but haven't quite managed it.


    Wonderful artisans and artists:






    Some of the art of "Old Europe" could have been carved yesterday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Only when looking at this new feature did I remember I have a match with Trypillia, Neolithic 3500 BC.

    The culture dates all the way back to 6000 B.C. David Anthony included a lot of their artifacts in a big show on "Old Europe", which I saw. It was terrific. I posted about it here years ago.

    They always fascinated me, with their seeming custom of burning all their houses down. I speculated at the time that the reason might not be ritual, as most archaeologists seemed to think, but was recurring waves of disease. I was thinking something like tuberculosis from the animals. Maybe it was plague.





    Archaeologists have tried to duplicate how they did such a thorough job of it but haven't quite managed it.


    Wonderful artisans and artists:






    Some of the art of "Old Europe" could have been carved yesterday.


    They were like that in the 70s. Probably for a few years they suffered some terrible plagues of lobsters that came back every year, they could not stand it and they left forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Only when looking at this new feature did I remember I have a match with Trypillia, Neolithic 3500 BC.

    The culture dates all the way back to 6000 B.C. David Anthony included a lot of their artifacts in a big show on "Old Europe", which I saw. It was terrific. I posted about it here years ago.

    They always fascinated me, with their seeming custom of burning all their houses down. I speculated at the time that the reason might not be ritual, as most archaeologists seemed to think, but was recurring waves of disease. I was thinking something like tuberculosis from the animals. Maybe it was plague.





    Archaeologists have tried to duplicate how they did such a thorough job of it but haven't quite managed it.


    Wonderful artisans and artists:






    Some of the art of "Old Europe" could have been carved yesterday.
    Fascinating. Objects of art and decoration made 6000 BC and that looks like sculptures of modern art. I believe that the arrival of the Yamnaya tribes decreed the end of this ancient Neolithic culture.

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