Mytrueancestry.com

[Pax Augusta]

what are they holding in their hands?

A diploma? A title? - a pen and tablet? A musical instrument?

"instrumenta scriptoria".

Basically, the couple pretended to be of a higher social rank than that to which they actually belonged.

il ritratto suo e della moglie in atteggiamento di intellettuali, esibenti gli instrumenta scriptoria sarebbe allora segno di una moda, per la quale un ceto di parvenus, avvezzo ad impiegar lo stilo piuttosto per far di conto che per scrivere opere (3), amava usurpare atteggiamenti ed iconografe dell'aristocrazia, facendosi rappresentare con i simboli degli otia litterarum. Un'analisi del volto di terentius neo, che sarebbe certo piaciuta a lombroso, ne ha riconosciuta tratti di rusticitas, "tipicamente sannitici" zigomi alti, labbra carnose, grandi occhi scuri, incarnato abbronzato e perfino di astuzia da commerciante o da contadino nello sguardo, che confermerebbero trattarsi non di un vero intellettuale, bensì di un uomo rozzo, appunto un panettiere (4). Ma si confondono così le umili origini, o la modesta agiatezza raggiunta dal nostro, con le doti intellettuali, e si dimenticano altresì i due catoni ed i molti giuristi e letterati romani (per non parlare di alcuni moderni!) che, nonostante la loro cultura, dovevano essere di catoniana rusticitas nell'aspetto e nei modi, come i ritratti dell'epoca tante volte confermano.

http://www1.unipa.it/dipstdir/portal.../terentius.htm

[Angela]

Many of you don’t know that Carusu is been heavily under attack on multiple Forums.

His DNA has challenged the Status Quo idea of conformity.

... think Bigger.

Let me guess...he's too "southern" for them?

He's a member of a Latin tribe. Some of them were a bit more Southern already.

Big Whoops.

The facts are what they are people; sane people throw discredited ideas into the rubbish heap.

[Carlos]

I have realized that the numbers within the colored circles could be the numbers of the samples, they seemed to me numbers without more coordinates of you go to know what.


But well, if that were the case, I painted what I thought was my coincidences with Etruscan and Latin for my segments.

Well, I'm going to sleep at 5:11 in the morning, this being a night owl ...

[Angela]

@Salento,

They're hung up on this, I take it?



What is the mystery here? I don't even want to know what fantastical theories they're concocting. What could be simpler? There was already CHG/Iran Neo in the Italian Neolithic. No, we don't see it in the few Copper Age Samples, but again, I doubt they disappeared. Then, if my hunch is right, we had that ancestry in the southern part of the mainland in increased proportions already, probably, if I'm right, from the Bronze Age. What could be simpler than an admixture between that "cluster" or type of ancestry and the Italics, who probably had some already from admixture with Italian Neolithic people?

We'll have to wait to get samples from Bronze Age Italy from all over the mainland, but is anyone going to seriously question that it's probably it was there since it was already in Sardinia and Sicily?

Honestly, what a tempest in a teapot.

[Salento]

@Salento,

They're hung up on this, I take it?



What is the mystery here? I don't even want to know what fantastical theories they're concocting. What could be simpler? There was already CHG/Iran Neo in the Italian Neolithic. No, we don't see it in the few Copper Age Samples, but again, I doubt they disappeared. Then, if my hunch is right, we had that ancestry in the southern part of the mainland in increased proportions already, probably, if I'm right, from the Bronze Age. What could be simpler than an admixture between that "cluster" or type of ancestry and the Italics, who probably had some already from admixture with Italian Neolithic people?

We'll have to wait to get samples from Bronze Age Italy from all over the mainland, but is anyone going to seriously question that it's probably it was there since it was already in Sardinia and Sicily?

Honestly, what a tempest in a teapot.

It’s also because most Iron Age samples found are R1b, only two aren’t: R850 (T-L208) and R474 (J-M12).

https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

Chances are that T-L208 and others T lines entered Italy with the R1bs, and some even before that. It could have also come with the Mycenaeans, the Greeks, and later with the Lombards, ...

Many are unfamiliar with y T ‘cause of its low % ratio, and when discovered people often act surprise, even though the Parent line of T-L208 was found in a 7000 burial in Karsdorf (DE).

y T is rare but widespread, and it has Europeans, Asian, MENA, ... lines, but many people picture only one line, and when found some people assume, others freak out instead, lol :)



https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...M184_tree.png#

[Salento]

Thanks Pax, interesting the show-off part.

[Duarte]

what are they holding in their hands?

a Diploma? a Title? - a Pen and Tablet? a Musical Instrument?

Good morning Salento.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I will quote a saying from Minas Gerais (typical of my state, Minas Gerais). "I sleep with the chickens and I wake up with them.” It means that I sleep very early and also wake up very early. LOL.

Only now have I seen your question.

This is the explanations of Wikipedia in Spanish:

The Portrait of Paquio Próculo is a painting that is preserved in the National Archaeological Museum of Naples and was found in the House of Pansa during the archaeological excavations of Pompeii. The painting shows a marriage of the Pompeian bourgeois and, due to an inscription on the outside of the house the painting was known as Paquio Próculo and his wife. But, in reality he is the baker Terencio Neo. This was revealed by a graffiti discovered inside the house. The external inscription would be an announcement of electoral propaganda in favor of Paquio Próculo to be elected Duoviro of Pompeii (something like a Roman Consul of the colonies).


The baker, who owned the pistrinum (bakery) on the “Abundance road”, appears in the painting wearing his robe, a symbol of his status as a Roman citizen. His physical features indicate that he is a man of Samnite origin, a descendant of the original inhabitants of the region, which would explain the desire to show the social status to which it belongs. In fact, the represented man holds a papyrus scroll while the woman has a wooden tablet covered with a layer of waxin in her hand and a estilo (a type of pen of the time) to write, suggesting the man participates in public or cultural activity while his wife took care the administration of the house and business.

[Duarte]

Duarte, I finally found that sample on my list: Just look at that pathetic number.


57. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 18.63 - R850 - (Click for more info)
Top 94% match vs all users +

My husband is never, never going to let me hear the end of it.

We have had a feud going since we met as to who is more "real Italian". Maybe you'd have to be Italian to get it. :)

Then the results came out with the Mycenaeans, his heroes, and he shared ancestry with them. His ancestry says:

Ancient Greek + Hellenic Roman (6.185)

Now his third best match with ancients is with a Latin tribe.


This has been, as Alexander would say " a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad, day". :)

LOL. Hello Angela, good morning.
There is no reason for disputes. You two are real Italians. I believe that nowadays technology sometimes leads us to hasty conclusions about how people behaved over 2000 years ago. Probably the descendants of Etruscan, Latin, and Greek who lived in ancient Rome were all Roman citizens, spoke the same native language, Latin, and perhaps a little Greek, lived in perfect harmony and were physically very similar. They did not see themselves as different, but as equal. We modern men are trying to differentiate them by DNA when, in fact, they didn’t see any difference between themselves, whether in appearance, linguistic or cultural. They were all Romans.
Cheers :)

[Duarte]

I consider the matches with these samples only as overlaps, considering that the ancient Iberians also received genetic inflows from central Europe throughout history. I don't see myself as descending from Etruscans, Lombards or Latinos (Romans) from central Italy. But I find all of this a lot of fun and I'm enjoying it a lot.

[Angela]

LOL. Hello Angela, good morning.
There is no reason for disputes. You two are real Italians. I believe that nowadays technology sometimes leads us to hasty conclusions about how people behaved over 2000 years ago. Probably the descendants of Etruscan, Latin, and Greek who lived in ancient Rome were all Roman citizens, spoke the same native language, Latin, and perhaps a little Greek, lived in perfect harmony and were physically very similar. They did not see themselves as different, but as equal. We modern men are trying to differentiate them by DNA when, in fact, they didn’t see any difference between themselves, whether in appearance, linguistic or cultural. They were all Romans.
Cheers :)

Salve, my friend.

You're absolutely right. Would that all people in this hobby had your sensibility. :)

I should have perhaps made clear that our "feud" is one of my husband's ways of teasing me. I've now spent the greater part of my life here in the U.S., surrounded by Southern Italians like my husband who are aghast that I wasn't born knowing how to make cavatelli or arancini, and can't understand them when they speak dialect. The running joke was that I didn't know these things because I had too much "German" or "French" in me. Combined with that I've been told incessantly by "Americans" that I, and my family, don't "look" Italian. So, I got a little sensitive about it. My sense of my Italian identity, instilled in me by my very patriotic father, and something to which I clung after coming here, is important to me. So, I get a little aggravated when he teases me about this stuff, among the many other things he teases me about.

I recently took that darn ancestrydna test which says I'm 45% French. My husband teased me about that for days. He has always liked to goad me to see me lose my temper, God knows why, when it's the part of myself I like least. He says he likes to see the sparks fly.

This also goes on all over Italy, however. We call it "campanilismo", for bell tower. It's about attachment to one's own area. My province is better than yours, my city is better than yours, etc. The people of Siena profess to "hate" the Florentines because of the war with them in the Middle Ages, while they are both Tuscans. Each city in Tuscany, in all Northern Italy, has its history as an independent city state at war with all the others during the Middle Ages, so these grudges are still talked about, although tongue in cheek and humorously most of the time. For some reason, the Pisans seem to get the worst of it. A common phrase is "Meglio un morto in casa che un Pisano all'uscito". Better a dead man in the house than a Pisan at the door. :)

[Salento]

Top 20:






once I regain my voting rights, I shall thank everyone properly :)

The Roman Lady is doing the same thing as the Lady from Pompei.
... interesting.

[Carlos]

In Istanbul they thought I was Italian, when I have long hair in Spain they have thought it was from Leon or from there. Several people have thought it was French. In Berlin they looked at me a lot, I was overwhelmed I can seem resulton but I'm not a top model either, I don't know if they are voager people but they looked at me a lot and I even met a young Norwegian, he turned to me, he was a polyglot and he asked me in multitude of languages, I kept silent, he asked me in all unimaginable languages except in Spanish, and then I knew how to speak Spanish perfectly. When I take selfies I become neurotic because from one day to the next I don't recognize myself, I go out different every time, with many looks or at least it is my perception. I imagine what it is to be international.

[Carlos]

Top 20:






once I regain my voting rights, I shall thank everyone properly :)

The Roman Lady is doing the same thing as the Lady from Pompei.
... interesting.

It must be influenced by Egypt when Pharaoh women put on a false beard. I understand that the Latin world was patriarchal unlike the Etruscans who were more liberal. Then these businesswomen and with an initiative the artist subtly put that false beard out with the pen on the chin, a subtle influence of the imported Egyptian symbols. Subliminal publicity.

[Duarte]

Top 20:



once I regain my voting rights, I shall thank everyone properly :)
The Roman Lady is doing the same thing as the Lady from Pompei.
... interesting.

This was already a modern woman. Think about how advanced Roman culture was in terms of customs. She, in addition to running the house, ran her husband's bakery business.

Nowadays, in Saudi Arabia, women only acquired the right to drive a car last month and they spend most of their time locked up inside your own houses and can only leave home if they are suitably dressed, ie, wearing a burka that only leaves visible the eyes.

[Carlos]

In this case the bakery belongs to her, inherited from her parents, the husband has become a consort baker and in the portrait with her subliminal false beard she makes clear who the business is and who is in charge.

[Jovialis]

Let me guess...he's too "southern" for them?

He's a member of a Latin tribe. Some of them were a bit more Southern already.

Big Whoops.

The facts are what they are people; sane people throw discredited ideas into the rubbish heap.

Stalinistic-self-denial of the truth; their willful ignorance is a disgrace. Funny, when an outlier is more "northern", like the Armenoi_Crete sample, "It must be an elite", but not when the outlier is too southern. The bias is incredible!

It is almost certainly true that Bronze-Age Southern Italy was richer in AN/CHG-like admixture, furthered by Mycenaean-like admixture. This individual probably reflected a merger of Italic-Latin, and Bronze-Age Southern Italian-like admixture.

[Jovialis]

Stalinistic-self-denial of the truth; their willful ignorance is a disgrace. Funny, when an outlier is more "northern", like the Armenoi_Crete sample, "It must be an elite", but not when the outlier is too southern. The bias is incredible!

It is almost certainly true that Bronze-Age Southern Italy was richer in AN/CHG-like admixture, furthered by Mycenaean-like admixture. This individual probably reflected a merger of Italic-Latin, and Bronze-Age Southern Italian-like admixture.

One thing is certain, R850 of Latin Tribe Ardea proves that Southern Italian-like people existed in Italy since at least the Iron age/Republican period. They were influential in the re-settlement of Italy; even in the Lazio area. And they have consistently existed on into the present day.

[torzio]

One thing is certain, R850 of Latin Tribe Ardea proves that Southern Italian-like people existed in Italy since at least the Iron age/Republican period. They were influential in the re-settlement of Italy; even in the Lazio area. And they have consistently existed on into the present day.

Yes but before this his line has recently been stated as western black sea area, although same line as the 2 neolithic T samples, it is a earlier split from this bulgarian branch......btw, the 2 x T neolithic bulgarian samples are more closer to the 3 x neolithic german samples, even though they are all from the same branch, including R850

[Salento]

Yes but before this his line has recently been stated as western black sea area, although same line as the 2 neolithic T samples, it is a earlier split from this bulgarian branch......btw, the 2 x T neolithic bulgarian samples are more closer to the 3 x neolithic german samples, even though they are all from the same branch, including R850

Now they have new Locations to add in the clades.
According to the maps, of the 3 y T samples: 1 is close to the Center Italians, and the other 2 to the South Italians.




R120:
y T1a2b L131>Y6033
mt I1c
400-600 CE Late Antiquity
San Ercolano

R1543
y T1a1a L162>L208>CTS11451>Y4119>CTS2214>Z709
mt H1e
1-400 CE
Imperial Rome
Mazzano Romano

R850
Y T1a1a TL208
mt T2c1f
800-500 BCE
Latin_IA
Ardea

[Carlos]

All Carlos Bell Beaker

[Duarte]

In another thread the discussions were a bit heated when discussing the origin of the Etruscans based on the supposed migration route of the paternal line J2 (Proto-Illyrians, Dalmatians/Illyrians, Etruscans, Illyrians). I know the MTA does an autosomal analysis to define the matches with ancient peoples and I also know that my paternal lineage is 100% Gallo-Iberian (R-DF27). As I have autosomal MTA matches with all the above mentioned ancient peoples, I decided to post here just out of curiosity and also to stay out of this war that is not mine, LOL.








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[Salento]

@Duarte, nice Etruscan result :)

Heated Debate.

“De mortuis nil nisi bonum”

... I speak only in Latin now LOL

They were people before they were samples, we often forget that when we debate.

[Duarte]

@Duarte, nice Etruscan result :)

Heated Debate.

“De mortuis nil nisi bonum”

... I speak only in Latin now LOL

They were people before they were samples, we often forget that when we debate.

Good morning dear friend Salento. Now you can and should speak Latin LOL.

It is true. They were people like us. Identification with numbers makes life easier for scientists, but it brings a tone of impersonality that forgets that they was human beings who lived and dreamed with a better world and better life, as we all dream. I'm glad your cousin R850 now has a name and a face. He is now the handsome young boy named Carusu di Ardea.

Cheers

[Carlos]

And this sepulchral silence?

The destiny of men is sometimes inexorable, a destiny that marks life and beyond death, perhaps eternity without knowing what caprices or laws it serves. Young Carusu will continue to smile at people wherever he is because he was the only thing he had because those who rejected him in his day for being different and continue to reject him thousands of years later were neither nor happier than he was.

[torzio]

It’s also because most Iron Age samples found are R1b, only two aren’t: R850 (T-L208) and R474 (J-M12).

https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...Antonio_SM.pdf

Chances are that T-L208 and others T lines entered Italy with the R1bs, and some even before that. It could have also come with the Mycenaeans, the Greeks, and later with the Lombards, ...

Many are unfamiliar with y T ‘cause of its low % ratio, and when discovered people often act surprise, even though the Parent line of T-L208 was found in a 7000 burial in Karsdorf (DE).

y T is rare but widespread, and it has Europeans, Asian, MENA, ... lines, but many people picture only one line, and when found some people assume, others freak out instead, lol :)



https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...M184_tree.png#

The tree branch you supplied was changed this morning check the site