Mytrueancestry.com

Salento: R437 K36 Coordinates. Thanks, So 87 is Puglia, looks like 81 is Lazio, 83 is Campania and 82 Calabria. In Sicily 82 is West Sicily, 81 East Sicily and 80 Malta. So R437 K36 is consistent with what you and I are getting on Dodcad 12B and Eurogenes K13 for R437 as well as MTA.

Good analysis and information. Thanks.

@Palermo Trapani

from AncestryDNA, my DNA story - 1750 and 1800 maps

1800: some of my Genetic Relatives moved to Sicily, Palermo and Trapani included :) interesting ...

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... in the 1900s many came to Amarica !

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vupzqXU.jpg
 
New this week

38. Iron Age France (300 BC) ..... 12.77
- COL153i
Celt + Gaul (6.587)
Visigoth + Celt (8.184)
Celt + Frank (8.5)
Visigoth + Frank (9.318)
Visigoth + Saxon (9.338)
Celt (12.46)
Frank (12.88)
Visigoth (13.89)
Saxon (14.1)
Gaul (14.59)

89. TBD Iron Age Erstein France (300 BC) ..... 15.2 - ERS1164
Celt + Vascones (8.294)
Vascones + Frank (8.891)
Celt + Frank (9.229)
Visigoth + Celt (10.45)
Visigoth + Vascones (11.13)
Celt (13.35)
Frank (14.21)
Vascones (15.27)
Saxon (16.65)
Visigoth (16.84)

95. TBD Iron Age Erstein France (300 BC) ..... 15.45 - ERS86
Visigoth + Etruscan (6.284)
Etruscan + Frank (6.474)
Gallo-Roman + Frank (7.066)
Visigoth + Gallo-Roman (7.146)
Frank + Illyrian (7.727)
Gallo-Roman (9.862)
Frank (11.27)
Illyrian (11.51)
Visigoth (12.29)
Etruscan (12.44)

104. Rixheim Bronze Age France (1750 BC) ..... 15.95 - RIX4
Visigoth + Celt (6.635)
Visigoth + Ostrogoth (8.524)
Visigoth + Frank (8.695)
Celt + Frank (8.895)
Visigoth + Saxon (9.131)
Celt (10.49)
Frank (12.59)
Saxon (12.96)
Visigoth (14.83)
Ostrogoth (15.99)

128. Bronze Age Early Celt Wartau Switzerland (1651 BC) ..... 16.66 - SX20
Celt + Vascones (2.209)
Celt + Iberian (3.36)
Vascones (4.447)
Celt (4.539)
Celt + Aquitani (4.875)
Celt + Celtiberian (4.884)
Vascones + Celtiberian (5.642)
Celtiberian (10.71)
Aquitani (11.51)
Iberian (12.61)

149. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.35 - I4885
Frank + Illyrian (3.312)
Visigoth + Illyrian (3.706)
Gaul + Frank (5.738)
Visigoth + Frank (6.208)
Gaul + Illyrian (6.402)
Gaul (7.824)
Frank (7.824)
Visigoth (10.22)
Thuringii (12.12)
Illyrian (12.26)

152. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 17.44
- I4891 -
Celt + Ostrogoth (5.392)
Celt + Frank (6.412)
Visigoth + Celt (7.033)
Celt (7.062)
Celt + Saxon (7.211)
Saxon + Frank (7.28)
Saxon (9.367)
Frank (11.47)
Ostrogoth (12.94)
Visigoth (14.74)

184. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.56 - I4887 -
Celt + Frank (3.906)
Celt + Saxon (5.081)
Saxon + Frank (5.577)
Celt + Ostrogoth (5.719)
Celt + Vandal (6.209)
Saxon (6.319)
Celt (7.227)
Frank (10.47)
Vandal (10.92)
Ostrogoth (12.1)

192. Bronze Age Prague Czech Kobylisy (1813 BC) ..... 18.8 - I4888
Celt + Frank (4.197)
Saxon + Frank (4.947)
Ostrogoth + Frank (6.415)
Celt (6.933)
Celt + Ostrogoth (7.258)
Visigoth + Celt (7.419)
Frank (7.956)
Saxon (9.731)
Ostrogoth (11.77)
Visigoth (12.41)

230. Early Bronze Age Bad Zurzach Switzerland (1963 BC) ..... 20.08 - SNPRA63 -
Alemanni + Latin (1.837)
Vandal + Latin (3.364)
Latin + Ostrogoth (6.725)
Latin + Frank (7.013)
Alemanni + Frank (7.293)
Alemanni (9.039)
Vandal (10.38)
Ostrogoth (11.46)
Latin (11.7)
Frank (11.8)

234. Distillery Cave Oban Argyll and Bute Scotland (3669 BC) ..... 20.33 - I2691
Latin (7.962)
Iberian + Latin (8.827)
Latin + Etruscan (9.087)
Latin + Rhaeti (9.399)
Gallo-Roman + Latin (10.39)
Iberian + Etruscan (11.34)
Iberian (13.41)
Etruscan (13.69)
Rhaeti (14.13)
Gallo-Roman (14.29)

237. Bronze Age Jinonice Prague Czech (2122 BC) ..... 20.51 - I4886 -
Frank (3.633)
Visigoth + Frank (3.975)
Visigoth + Ostrogoth (4.302)
Ostrogoth + Frank (4.404)
Visigoth (4.913)
Gaul + Ostrogoth (4.999)
Gaul + Saxon (5.373)
Saxon (8.24)
Ostrogoth (9.678)
Gaul (9.756)

I am a little French I will demonstrate it:

Aló mon dieu! Je suis Carlos et je ne comprend pas alors salutations pour toutes les garçons air revoir!
look!!!

The thing about Prague is totally true because years ago I had a trip to Prague in a draw.




 
@Palermo Trapani

from AncestryDNA, my DNA story - 1750 and 1800 maps

1800: some of my Genetic Relatives moved to Sicily, Palermo and Trapani included :) interesting ...

LHbIHpr.jpg


vp2GR0z.jpg



... in the 1900s many came to Amarica !

pZXlUfp.jpg



AfqRlNX.jpg


vupzqXU.jpg

Salento: Thanks. Some people forget, not you, that everything South of Rome, starting with the Normans was a united Kingdom with leadership from Sicily (Kingdom of Sicily or 2 Sicilies) or from Naples (Kingdom of Naples). I would think, pure hypothesis, that your personal history is not uncommon, as people moved within the territory, military men stationed from point A to point B, trade from area to area and movement for work, etc. If you go back to the Roman era all the way up to the Byzantine period, those same areas were united as well. The only bleep in the history was when the Saracens invaded and had control in Sicily, Total control was not obtained till about 965. I think they had control of Puglia for about 30 years, or maybe the region around Bari and invaded and sacked Rome a few times but never had enough forces to sustain the expansion.

Your story is also interesting to me because when I was in Trapani, I went to the town where my Great Grandfather was born and told them my family name and the locals kept telling me "non-communale", well it is present in Sicily but not to the level it is in Naples. And the name when I did a surname search on where it populates the most it is in Naples. Not saying that my ancestors 250-300 years ago were in Naples and then moved to NW Sicily but you never Know. On the other hand, my Mother's maiden name is one of the 5 most common family names in Sicily and her Father's mother's maiden name definitely from Sicily as it is the name of a town in the Province of Ragusa (which shows up on the map below). I have traced my Fathers Paternal Great Grandfather's lineage back to the late 1700's using Ancestry and my own personal research when I was in Trapani last summer but the civil records in Sicily, like elsewhere in Italy I think usually stop around 1800. However, Catholic Sacrament records are on file with either Local Parish or Diocese (Bishop) and date back to the Council of Trent (1534-1563) era which is exciting but from what I gathered it is not easy to get a chance to review Sacrament records if you are doing personal research and not academic type research, etc.

PT_5_16_2020.JPGPT_5_16_2020_1750AD.JPG


I have not made my Ancestry public. I might have to email you and see what you have done as you get back into the 1800's. I got that far back by finding a Marriage or birth record in early 1800's which would have parents name and age, where they were from, who the grandparents were ect. I just found the other night on my Mothers side her Father's Grandfather's wedding document which had his birth record and who presented him at birth, with parents name and dates, etc, but it gets tougher once you get past 1800.

Cheers, How was the allegorical Vinno I sent the other day! Sorry the 2 jpeg.s blurred together a bit.
 
My new samples acquired this weekend. In my current MTA’s level, are displayed only the next ones that I am posting. The other are blocked.

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Duarte: In post #2503, to get to 183 samples, is that the Lighting bolt or strike option. I upgraded to Zeus but there are 2 features that you can add above Zeus to get more samples. Man MTA is tempting, their site keeps getting better and their Maps that integrate sample matches is as I think you and Carlos have noted, best out there right now.
 
Duarte: In post #2503, to get to 183 samples, is that the Lighting bolt or strike option. I upgraded to Zeus but there are 2 features that you can add above Zeus to get more samples. Man MTA is tempting, their site keeps getting better and their Maps that integrate sample matches is as I think you and Carlos have noted, best out there right now.

Thanks for the tip Trapani.
I intend to add more resources to get more details about the old matches. I am only on stand-by, waiting for the end of the pandemic to pay for an upgrade, as you suggest. At the current juncture my option is to wait a little longer.
Thank you dear friend :)
 
Thanks for the tip Trapani.
I intend to add more resources to get more details about the old matches. I am only on stand-by, waiting for the end of the pandemic to pay for an upgrade, as you suggest. At the current juncture my option is to wait a little longer.
Thank you dear friend :)

Duarte: I understand completely. I want to do the Ftdna analysis that you suggested a while back but I just can't pull the trigger right now with the COVID-19 situation, even though my job is secure (Thanks be to God) and I could work from home next fall and teach my classes via zoom/Skype (i.e. Remote access) if my University does not allow on-campus classes. Still, the memory of my Grandparents still is implanted in my brain, i.e. people who went through the depression era USA economy and as a kid when they put food on your plate and you did not eat it, it was like mortal sin to them!!!, which as I get older now I understand more and more where they were coming from.
 
Duarte: I understand completely. I want to do the Ftdna analysis that you suggested a while back but I just can't pull the trigger right now with the COVID-19 situation, even though my job is secure (Thanks be to God) and I could work from home next fall and teach my classes via zoom/Skype (i.e. Remote access) if my University does not allow on-campus classes. Still, the memory of my Grandparents still is implanted in my brain, i.e. people who went through the depression era USA economy and as a kid when they put food on your plate and you did not eat it, it was like mortal sin to them!!!, which as I get older now I understand more and more where they were coming from.

You are right Trapani.
I also have a stable situation, but I recently, spent some money, together with a friend who owns a restaurant, to help the most vulnerable population of Belo Horizonte, providing food (street population). I am also helping a charity in Belo Horizonte that takes care of the elderly and also children with cerebral palsy, all of whom are neglected. The federal government asked for help in cash that can be deposited in the accounts of the official bank, Banco do Brasil. I do not trust this government and from me now, it will not receive a penny. I know that if the money is deposited in the federal government accounts, it will not reach BH. At the moment, I only help the needy inhabitants of my city. Unfortunately I have to be selective.
That is why I am postponing expenses that are not essential, as is the case with the MTA, for example.
Cheers :)
 
Torzio: I think the sample in my post is the oldest one, is that not correct? I was only looking for genetic distances independent of Y-DNA Haplogroup, which it seems is more of the angle your post are focused on. From an Genetic Distance perspective, independent of Y-DNA haplogroup. R850 which is 650 BC Rome and I0795 from Neolithic Germany from 5,300 BC are using Dodecad 12B a distance of 27. So there is some genetic overlap between the Karsdorf I0795 and R850, my guess EEF type ancestry?

How close are I0795 and the other Karsdorf samples? Are they relatively close distance wise?

I am not Y-DNA T but my Distance for R850 using Dodecad 12B and Eurogenes K13 are 13.2 and 12.1, respectively. R437 distance wise is my closest 4.18 and 5.43,respectively. So while I don't share the Y-DNA Haplogroup of R850 or R437, autosonal wise I am relatively close to both and I share DNA segments with R850. My Y-DNA Haplogroup is I, specifically I2 (I-M223) so I am not sure Y-DNA alone tells the story, only partial story. I have not done any type deep clade analysis and I am not on Ftdna where I think that type of analysis can really be done well.


the oldest T was a hunter in , IIRC southern Lebanon, found in a cave with a bow circa 9000yo .........the oldest in Europe is Karsdorf at 7000yo ..............but they are all from T1a1 branch, i was speaking to Salento in regards to our branch of T1a2 and that was in the north caucasus at circa 5500yo
As per what T experts wrote to me 2 plus years ago, all 3 branches of T ( T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 ) all came out of 1 person around modern Turkmenistan lands south of the Aral sea
 
Salento: Thanks. Some people forget, not you, that everything South of Rome, starting with the Normans was a united Kingdom with leadership from Sicily (Kingdom of Sicily or 2 Sicilies) or from Naples (Kingdom of Naples). I would think, pure hypothesis, that your personal history is not uncommon, as people moved within the territory, military men stationed from point A to point B, trade from area to area and movement for work, etc. If you go back to the Roman era all the way up to the Byzantine period, those same areas were united as well. The only bleep in the history was when the Saracens invaded and had control in Sicily, Total control was not obtained till about 965. I think they had control of Puglia for about 30 years, or maybe the region around Bari and invaded and sacked Rome a few times but never had enough forces to sustain the expansion.

Your story is also interesting to me because when I was in Trapani, I went to the town where my Great Grandfather was born and the locals kept telling me "non-communale", well it is present in Sicily but not to the level it is in Naples. And the name when I did a surname search on where it populates the most it is in Naples. Not saying that my ancestors 250-300 years ago were in Naples and then moved to NW Sicily but you never no. On the other hand, my Mother's maiden name is one of the 5 most common family names in Sicily and her Father's mother's maiden name definitely from Sicily as it is the name of a town in the Province of Ragusa (which shows up on the map below). I have traced my Fathers Paternal Great Grandfather's lineage back to the late 1700's using Ancestry and my own personal research when I was in Trapani last summer but the civil records in Sicily, like elsewhere in Italy I think usually stop around 1800. However, Catholic Sacrament records are on file with either Local Parish or Diocese (Bishop) and date back to the Council of Trent (1534-1563) era which is exciting but from what I gathered it is not easy to get a chance to review Sacrament records if you are not doing personal research and not academic type research, etc.

View attachment 12078View attachment 12079


I have not made my Ancestry public. I might have to email you and see what you have done as you get back into the 1800's. I got that far back by finding a Marriage or birth record in early 1800's which would have parents name and age, where they were from, who the grandparents were ect. I just found the other night on my Mothers side her Father's Grandfather's wedding document which had his birth record and who presented him at birth, with parents name and dates, etc, but it gets tougher once you get past 1800.

Cheers, How was the allegorical Vinno I sent the other day! Sorry the 2 jpeg.s blurred together a bit.

... the vino was good :)

AncestryDNA in 1750 shows Ancestry in Salento, ... gone by 1800, never to be seen again, even though me and every other past and present relative that I’m aware of, were all born in Salento.

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In the 1800s are not in Salento anymore ... but they never left Rome and the Pope, lol

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Puglia is my main genetic community ☺
(Salento didn’t make it) lol

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no change for my family for the new updates except , my sister second spot after north-italian went from portuguese to Catalan
 
the oldest T was a hunter in , IIRC southern Lebanon, found in a cave with a bow circa 9000yo .........the oldest in Europe is Karsdorf at 7000yo ..............but they are all from T1a1 branch, i was speaking to Salento in regards to our branch of T1a2 and that was in the north caucasus at circa 5500yo
As per what T experts wrote to me 2 plus years ago, all 3 branches of T ( T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3 ) all came out of 1 person around modern Turkmenistan lands south of the Aral sea

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it. So with respect to Y-DNA T, the oldest sample in Europe is the Karsdorf German sample, oldest T sample researchers have documented is from early Neolithic Lebanon but all T goes back to Central Asia. Like I said I have not done the type of Y-DNA Haplogroup analysis that you and Salento have. I am Y-DNA I-M223 (I2 branch of I) and Haplogroup I, which from what I gathered is probably the only one that is indigenous to Europe along with some minor clades of C1a2 (per Maciamo's article here at Eupedia). But other than that, I have not delved into significant analysis of I-M223 other than it might be a surviving lineage of Hunter gatherers post Ice Age, etc.
 
Salento: Looks like your overlapping there with Basilicata along with Puglia of course. The great Green Bay Packers Coach Vince Lombardi's ancestors were from Basilicata on his Mothers side and Salerno-Campania on his Father's side. Francis Ford Coppola's ancestry is similar to Coach Lombardi's half from Basilicata and half from Campania (Naples). So maybe your related to Coach Lombardi and Coppola. When I told all my Siciliano paisan that Coach Lombardi was Campania/Basilicata, they were like Damn, but still part of the paisan family(y)
 
Medieval / Renaissance

... You have ancient relatives!
(You share identified DNA segments)

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I think I mentioned before that the sample found in a relic whom it was claimed was Louis XV1 is a reasonably good match of mine. He was G2a. If it was him he was illegitimate as the line is R1b.

Does anyone know if any theories have been put forward as to who he might be?

31. Relic French King Louis XVI (1793 AD) ..... 11.37 top 98%
match vs all users
 
I think I mentioned before that the sample found in a relic whom it was claimed was Louis XV1 is a reasonably good match of mine. He was G2a. If it was him he was illegitimate as the line is R1b.

Does anyone know if any theories have been put forward as to who he might be?

31. Relic French King Louis XVI (1793 AD) ..... 11.37 top 98%
match vs all users

According to MTA I'm even closer at 99 percent in deep dive and he became my top match there by now. I don't really trust it, because I would share as much as with a real 4th cousin with him, which is rather unlikely everything considered.

Read here for the study producing the sample analysis, Henri IV and Louis XVI were the supposed donors:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ive_blood_from_Louis_XVI_both_Kings_of_France
And the critique of it:
Based on 22 scientific and historical arguments, the head was recently identified as belonging to the French King Henri IV.21 Nevertheless, this identification remains controversial as several historical counter-arguments have been formulated.22, 23

Next to the Y-chr, the mitochondrial DNA analysis of the head of Henri IV also does not support the presumed identification of the head sample. According to Charlier et al,24 the donor of the head belongs to mtDNA haplogroup U5b*

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/
 
According to MTA I'm even closer at 99 percent in deep dive and he became my top match there by now. I don't really trust it, because I would share as much as with a real 4th cousin with him, which is rather unlikely everything considered.

Read here for the study producing the sample analysis, Henri IV and Louis XVI were the supposed donors:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ive_blood_from_Louis_XVI_both_Kings_of_France
And the critique of it:




https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992573/

Well, I'd certainly prefer a connection to Henry of Navarre than Louis XVI. The latter was a complete dummkopf...fiddling around with watches and clocks while his kingdom crumbled around him and his children, if they were his children, were in danger.

To be determined, I guess....

If I were these researchers, I wouldn't be so sure that the yDna of some descendants is the same as the dna which these kings actually carried, and which is the same lineage for both the putative Henri of Navarre and Louis XVI.

Anyone who thinks there wasn't infidelity in royal lines hasn't been paying attention.

We know that Richard II of England was G2a. None of the males supposedly of the Plantagenet line carry that yDna. So, either he was illegitimate, or there was illegitimacy in their lines. Either way, Richard II of England was G2a.

It's all just further proof to me of the stupidity of rule by inheritance, and believing in some sort of divine right of kings. Louis XVI would have been happier owning some shop, Prince Charles as a farmer, and Prince Harry as some army officer.
 
... continuity (2)

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... not easy to screenshot ...
 

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