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[Palermo Trapani]

@Torzio ...

as I reminder: the much older Karsdorf samples (Germany) and R850 (Italy) are all T1a1...

R850 Dod K12

Salento: R850 very much related to many subsequent Imperial Age Romans and as you noted, T1 was around in older Karsdorf German samples, which I think I got reasonable distances for a sample that far back. I think it is from about 5,000 BC, similar to Otzi's age. Triggered me to go check!

Cheers, PT

 

[Angela]

Angela: My comment here is only for clarification and it is in the context of you as an Advisor. Earlier in a post, it was suggested that R850 was an Etruscan. There was some discussion about R850, respectful on all parts of which I was involved, as I and I think Salento both with respect to R850 get DNA matches on R850 from MTA chroma analysis. I had never heard R850 described as an Etruscan and the published paper (Antonio/Moots et al 2019) while defining 3 Samples as Etruscan, only discusses R475 as an Etruscan. So I was unclear as to what 3 samples were defined as Etruscan by Antonio/Moots et al 2019. So Torzio and I had several respectful posts and replies but in one post above (#2462) I noted that I went to the various Dodecad and Eurogenes calculators to see which 3 Iron Age Roman samples were defined as Etruscan. According to the Eurogenes K13 ancient spreadsheet, the 3 are R473,, R474 and R475

R473_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,33.38,12.03,31.63,0.41,18.38,3.34,0.34,0.42,0.06,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,35.67,12.22,25.57,5.16,17.48,1.51,0.00,0.00,1.10,0.59,0.00,0.71,0.00
R475b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age,21.50,7.31,32.84,0.00,26.37,6.15,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.10,4.30,1.44

So based on what I gathered, R850 is not an Etruscan nor is R437. If this Quilles etc group is claiming R850 and R437 are both Etruscans in public blogs, vs Latin Tribes, then one plausible explanation might, I repeat might, lie with the fact that both cluster closer to Modern Southern Italians (Sicily inclusive). This last statement I will say is purely conjecture on my part, not a statement of dogmatic fact.

Respectfully, PT.

It was my error; I thought Torzio said R473, not R437. I must have transposed the numbers in my head.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Salento: Went to Dodecad 12B and ran distance to Karsdorf old sample. My distance is 22, which for a sample that old, not bad. For Otzi who is similar age, I get about 15 on MTA as I noted in another post and share some segments with Otzi (as you do) and both of us share segments with R850 per MTA analysis.

22.00682394

I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Angela: Ok thanks. PT

 

[torzio]

Who said R50 was an Etruscan???

R437 "is" an Etruscan.

You can't change the archaeological context of these samples just because you feel like it. Whether the Etruscans were rather similar to Bronze Age people from the Balkans is irrelevant. It just shows the ancestors of the Etruscans may have moved into Italy from the eastern side of the Alps. That may be true of the Italics as well.

If you have all this information about yDna T, then where is this sample's particular yDna T found? If it was long in Neolithic Europe, then the likelihood he immigrated as a grown man from Anatolia is even less.

If the people on the site where you got this information are this confused perhaps you shouldn't rely on their conclusions.

I was not talking about R50...I am talking about R850

Yes ydna T1a1 and T1a2 ( not T1a3 ) has been in Europe since the neolithic, what is your point ?...............as stated been in europe a very long time, time to move around and stop chasing red deer in karsdorf germany , or eating and raising doves in Malak bulgaria ...................i stated island of Crete which is what Jovialis stated in his admixture and his consultation with hannah ....................best you chat with Jovialis on sample R850

The only etruscans that could have moved via the eastern alps is only if etruscan are a branch of the umbri as they entered Italy from the eastern alps circa 2200BC ...................IMO, not sure ..........as I see Umbri and etruscans as the first "italians"

Umbri are also ( sabines, Sabellians, Samnites , south picene ) are all same ancient stock

 

[torzio]

Salento: Went to Dodecad 12B and ran distance to Karsdorf old sample. My distance is 22, which for a sample that old, not bad. For Otzi who is similar age, I get about 15 on MTA as I noted in another post and share some segments with Otzi (as you do) and both of us share segments with R850 per MTA analysis.

22.00682394

I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE

there are 3 T samples in Karsdorf

I0797 KAR16a T1a1a2-Y63197

and

sample KARS537
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197 (xBY154289)
mtDNA: J1c6a

or check Malak Bulgaria as some state has Iberian mix


I0700 ( 7550 ± 200 yBP )

House: 13
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e


and


I1108 ( 7550 ± 200 yBP )

House: 4
Y-DNA: T1a1a2-Y63197
mtDNA: T2e



https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778

 

[torzio]

@Torzio ...

as I reminder: the much older Karsdorf samples (Germany) and R850 (Italy) are all T1a1...

R850 Dod K12

yes , all 3 Karsdorf samples and the 2 Malak bulgarian samples ( all neolithic times ) are T1a1 branch


I think , our oldest T1a2 is [h=3]Ipatovo 3 north caucasus ............then CL23 .....and lastly VK398 viking norway .................there is others but I cannot recall at the moment[/h]

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Torzio: I think the sample in my post is the oldest one, is that not correct? I was only looking for genetic distances independent of Y-DNA Haplogroup, which it seems is more of the angle your post are focused on. From an Genetic Distance perspective, independent of Y-DNA haplogroup. R850 which is 650 BC Rome and I0795 from Neolithic Germany from 5,300 BC are using Dodecad 12B a distance of 27. So there is some genetic overlap between the Karsdorf I0795 and R850, my guess EEF type ancestry?

How close are I0795 and the other Karsdorf samples? Are they relatively close distance wise?

I am not Y-DNA T but my Distance for R850 using Dodecad 12B and Eurogenes K13 are 13.2 and 12.1, respectively. R437 distance wise is my closest 4.18 and 5.43,respectively. So while I don't share the Y-DNA Haplogroup of R850 or R437, autosonal wise I am relatively close to both and I share DNA segments with R850. My Y-DNA Haplogroup is I, specifically I2 (I-M223) so I am not sure Y-DNA alone tells the story, only partial story. I have not done any type deep clade analysis and I am not on Ftdna where I think that type of analysis can really be done well.

 

[Angela]

I was not talking about R50...I am talking about R850

Yes ydna T1a1 and T1a2 ( not T1a3 ) has been in Europe since the neolithic, what is your point ?...............as stated been in europe a very long time, time to move around and stop chasing red deer in karsdorf germany , or eating and raising doves in Malek bulgaria ...................i stated crete which is what Jovialis stated in his admixture and his consultation with hannah ....................best you chat with Jovialis on sample R850

The only etruscans that could have moved via the eastern alps is only if etruscan are a branch of the umbri as they entered Italy from the eastern alps circa 2200BC ...................IMO, not sure ..........as I see Umbri and etruscans as the first "italians"

Umbri are also ( sabines, Sabellians, Samnites , south picene ) are all same ancient stock

I meant R850, as the flow of the conversation should have made clear, but ok. you got me; the key stuck and so it's a typo.

Every time I point out that one of your conclusions lacks proof you get defensive and then extremely snarky. Is it so difficult to say oh, I didn't consider that factor, or even, God forbid, I made a mistake.

I did it twice in the last three posts.

To get back to R850, surely I don't need to explain the difference between saying he is closest genetically to modern Cretans versus he is a man whom I "know "came from ancient Crete to central Rome around 650 B.C. to be adopted into a Latin tribe?

As for the importance of his yDna I would think it's obvious that if he carries a Ydna which has been present in Europe since the Neolithic that makes his origin on the male line in Iron Age Anatolia less likely, unless that sub-lineage is one which was present then or now in Anatolia. That's why I asked if you knew of other samples of the lineage from that area.

It's increasingly certain that the ancestors of both the Etruscans and the Italics and the Veneti and the Ligures came into Italy from north of the Alps. I think large migrations coming straight through the Alps would have been very difficult. That leaves migrations skirting the Alps either on the west or the east. I think from Hungary or places south and making an end run around the eastern Alps makes more sense. I think most scholars would see it the same way. They didn't necessarily all arrive in the exact same decade or whatever, for goodness' sakes. Ligures might be different. As we get more data we'll know more.

If you can't respond civilly and with data then don't reply at all.

 

[torzio]

Torzio: I think the sample in my post is the oldest one, is that not correct? I was only looking for genetic distances independent of Y-DNA Haplogroup, which it seems is more of the angle your post are focused on. From an Genetic Distance perspective, independent of Y-DNA haplogroup. R850 which is 650 BC Rome and I0795 from Neolithic Germany from 5,300 BC are using Dodecad 12B a distance of 27. So there is some genetic overlap between the Karsdorf I0795 and R850, my guess EEF type ancestry?

How close are I0795 and the other Karsdorf samples? Are they relatively close distance wise?

I am not Y-DNA T but my Distance for R850 using Dodecad 12B and Eurogenes K13 are 13.2 and 12.1, respectively. R437 distance wise is my closest 4.18 and 5.43,respectively. So while I don't share the Y-DNA Haplogroup of R850 or R437, autosonal wise I am relatively close to both and I share DNA segments with R850. My Y-DNA Haplogroup is I, specifically I2 (I-M223) so I am not sure Y-DNA alone tells the story, only partial story. I have not done any type deep clade analysis and I am not on Ftdna where I think that type of analysis can really be done well.

The german and bulgarian T samples are all related, same branch and snps even though they/some might be a few hindred years apart

 

[torzio]

I meant R850, as the flow of the conversation should have made clear, but ok. you got me; the key stuck and so it's a typo.

Every time I point out that one of your conclusions lacks proof you get defensive and then extremely snarky. Is it so difficult to say oh, I didn't consider that factor, or even, God forbid, I made a mistake.

I did it twice in the last three posts.

To get back to R850, surely I don't need to explain the difference between saying he is closest genetically to modern Cretans versus he is a man whom I "know "came from ancient Crete to central Rome around 650 B.C. to be adopted into a Latin tribe?

As for the importance of his yDna I would think it's obvious that if he carries a Ydna which has been present in Europe since the Neolithic that makes his origin on the male line in Iron Age Anatolia less likely, unless that sub-lineage is one which was present then or now in Anatolia. That's why I asked if you knew of other samples of the lineage from that area.

It's increasingly certain that the ancestors of both the Etruscans and the Italics and the Veneti and the Ligures came into Italy from north of the Alps. I think large migrations coming straight through the Alps would have been very difficult. That leaves migrations skirting the Alps either on the west or the east. I think from Hungary or places south and making an end run around the eastern Alps makes more sense. I think most scholars would see it the same way. They didn't necessarily all arrive in the exact same decade or whatever, for goodness' sakes. Ligures might be different. As we get more data we'll know more.

If you can't respond civilly and with data then don't reply at all.

I agree, they came in via central europe, but are any off shoots of each other.....akthough the ligures imo, cam via southern france

I am civil, i do not know what uou mean civilly

 

[Salento]

R437 Latin 300 BC

Similarity Rate with Different Populations

... Salento / Puglia :grin:

It means that some of the Latins of 300 BC must have been somewhat similar to the Pugliesi / Apulians of Today,

... we should not assume that today’s Pugliesi are exactly the same as those of 300 BC.

... or maybe they are ... lol

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

R437_Iron_Age_Praeneste,0,3.76,4.46,1.94,0,1.18,0,0,5.13,0,0,14.54,0,0,5.51,9.17,0,23.54,0,7.86,0,3.74,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,8.38,10.78

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Salento: R437 K36 Coordinates. Thanks, So 87 is Puglia, looks like 81 is Lazio, 83 is Campania and 82 Calabria. In Sicily 82 is West Sicily, 81 East Sicily and 80 Malta. So R437 K36 is consistent with what you and I are getting on Dodcad 12B and Eurogenes K13 for R437 as well as MTA.

Good analysis and information. Thanks.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Torzio: I went and checked the samples you suggested vs my own Coordinates for Dodecad 12B Ancient and Eurogenes K13 ancient.

Dodecad 12B for I0795 (> 7,000 years old) and I0550 (4,400 years old). I0795 distance 22, I0550 distance 64.47. I could not find I1108 and I0700 in Dodecad 12B

22.00682394

I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE

64.47326190

I0550_KAR22A_Karsdorf_LN_Karsdorf_Germany_2564-2475_calBCE

Eurogenes for I1108 (> 7,800 years old), I0700 (> 7,900 years old) and I0550 (4,400 years old). I could not find I0795 in Eurogenes K13 Ancient. I0550 is in both Dodecad and Eurogenes. I1108 distance 32, I0700 33.9 and I0550 53.

32.61796284

I1108_Bulgaria_MP_N_7875_ybp

33.99354792

I0700_Bulgaria_MP_N_1d.rel.I1108_7934_ybp

53.03751880

I0550_Germany_Karsdorf_LN_4471_ybp

So I am closer too the oldest German Sample and closer to the 2 older Bulgarian Samples than the more recent I0550. So what could explain the difference, well I think it would be fair to say I0550 had some recent ancestry that came in that I did not get as much of? I know the distances from Eurogenes are far off (all > 30), but the Dodecad for I0795 is not bad for a sample close to 7,200 years old.

 

[torzio]

Torzio: I went and checked the samples you suggested vs my own Coordinates for Dodecad 12B Ancient and Eurogenes K13 ancient.

Dodecad 12B for I0795 (> 7,000 years old) and I0550 (4,400 years old). I0795 distance 22, I0550 distance 64.47. I could not find I1108 and I0700 in Dodecad 12B

22.00682394

I0795_KAR6_LBK_EN_Karsdorf_Germany_5207-5070_calBCE

64.47326190

I0550_KAR22A_Karsdorf_LN_Karsdorf_Germany_2564-2475_calBCE

Eurogenes for I1108 (> 7,800 years old), I0700 (> 7,900 years old) and I0550 (4,400 years old). I could not find I0795 in Eurogenes K13 Ancient. I0550 is in both Dodecad and Eurogenes. I1108 distance 32, I0700 33.9 and I0550 53.

32.61796284

I1108_Bulgaria_MP_N_7875_ybp

33.99354792

I0700_Bulgaria_MP_N_1d.rel.I1108_7934_ybp

53.03751880

I0550_Germany_Karsdorf_LN_4471_ybp

So I am closer too the oldest German Sample and closer to the 2 older Bulgarian Samples than the more recent I0550. So what could explain the difference, well I think it would be fair to say I0550 had some recent ancestry that came in that I did not get as much of? I know the distances from Eurogenes are far off (all > 30), but the Dodecad for I0795 is not bad for a sample close to 7,200 years old.

Ran out of ticks.....so thank you

Not sure why you want to check on these old T samples, but uf you want to match salento, then sample CL23 is his T branch

 

[Salento]

Ran out of ticks.....so thank you
Not sure why you want to check on these old T samples, but uf you want to match salento, then sample CL23 is his T branch

He can’t match me, ... and why me?
My branch is your branch!

my closest basic Y T match is SZ36 !

... was # 1 / 2 - now is # 4 / 5 at MTA.

... post #2426

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Ran out of Ticks?, not sure the meaning. I was more looking at the distances, not the Y-DNA Haplogroups. As I noted while I don't have Y-DNA T1a, I am distance wise close to R850 and share DNA segments with R850. So if R850 is distance wise not to far from I0795, it does suggest something about the ancestry of those samples that obviously I share. Again I think you and I are evaluating these samples from different perspectives, you are looking at the Y-DNA T1a perspective, I am more interested in the overall genetic distance. As I said, I have not to date gone into figuring out who I match Y-DNA Haplogroups with, maybe I will one day. I have been more interested in overall genetic similarity relative to older samples. So from that perspective, I share DNA with R850.

So that is the context of why I ran the distance calculators for those Samples, not trying to match any of those samples or determine matches with anyone. I have been on Ancestry for 1.5 years or so and I have not yet or plan to make my DNA public. If I ever decide to go into the Y-DNA Haplogroup deep clade/branch analysis, I will do that with Ftdna, not Ancestry.

Sorry to bother you.

 

[torzio]

He can’t match me, ... and why me?
My branch is your branch!
my closest basic Y T match is SZ36 !
... was # 1 / 2 - now is # 4 / 5 at MTA.
... post #2426

He was looking at apulia area, not my area

Plus you are are legend, not I

 

[torzio]

@Torzio ...
as I reminder: the much older Karsdorf samples (Germany) and R850 (Italy) are all T1a1...
R850 Dod K12

All the 3 karsdorf T samples and 2 bulgarians ones are all T1a1 and have the same snp......all are related, all kin, even though there might be a gap of hundred or so years

 

[Salento]

All the 3 karsdorf T samples and 2 bulgarians ones are all T1a1 and have the same snp......all are related, all kin, even though there might be a gap of hundred or so years

... eventually the Karsdorf’s turned into Barbarians, and R850 Grandchildren into Civilized Romans ! lol

... cool