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"no matter the relative number of individuals in relation to the whole"

Precisely. Funny thing is that this relative number is highly relative itself. I mean, being purposely exaggerated for the sake of illustration, T is in fact just a subgroup of K, which accounts for most of European individuals. :) Of course, they splitted very early. Point is that Y-DNAs change permanently, no matter the labels.

If you allow me some mental exercises, without intending to be really surgical, but trying to think out of the box, I was just thinking (as someone interested in Y-DNA)...
Strictly, if by "success", an elastic term, we mean relative growth/expansion (not just absolute numbers, since forces/correlations change over time, and since in fact most of macro-hgs must have experienced growth in the last thousands of years when it comes to absolute numbers) and by non-success we mean relative retraction, which also implies some sort of virtual competition, then place and timeframe is again important. We usually talk on macro-haplogroups. In fact, we "personified" them, which may be misleading. But in each period and each area, under different forces, there will be other virtual actors (subclades) "competing" with one another, so to speak, even when they belong to the same macro-haplogroup (mind you, first of all, they are letters and numbers that represent a set of specific shared mutations, but their subclades may be somewhat distant from each other in time and then in number of shared mutations too; rigorously, every individual is unique, and the actual competition happens between people - in the past strongly correlated to certain hgs, but not that much anymore -; so people may be more "objectivelly" successful in some manner). And hgs won't "thrive" everywhere and everytime. In this sense, again, success would be more linked with expansion than to absolute frequency, be it over space, be it over time in a specific area, a thing that depends, again, on the context discussed, and we know it always changes. (But as suggested, victory may mean surviving to certain "accidents", or casualities. I.e., just surviving, even with all adversities imposed, may be also a kind of victory sometimes. So, it's not always a matter of suplanting competitors, but also of overcoming "circumstances". We're used to think that a lineage is only "successful" if it's frequent "everywhere" or very frequent somewhere. Well, in certain way, perhaps, but "success" must be then properly defined. I don't want to be relativistic, btw, but this complex subject itself seems to be highly "relative"; binary reasoning may led us to a wrong way.) :)

Back to the initial point. For example, due to some sort of correlation, you may have a certain set of closely related ascendant/descendant clades which experienced a comparative high expansion in number and frequency between 5000-4000 years ago, causing a very high frequency of these clades even thousands of years later, but hypothetically you can have younger related subclades - then in a different context - that experienced a retraction even if compared to subclades from different and now "absorbed" macro-haplogroups. There must be practical examples in each context, such 35% of Serbs belonging to I-Y3120 (only ~2000 years old) according to Serbian Project, while, additionally, ~2/3 of these 35% would belong to I-PH908 (just ~1800 years old). Impressive! It also surprises me haplogroups such R-Y10827, which apparently grew well from 1600 ybp, even belonging to a "minor" R-P312 clade. R-M222 under R-L21 is also very interesting (great expansion of subclades from 2000 ybp). And on and on. YFull recently released a different view that makes all these huge variations more evident. Example: https://yfull.com/sc/tree/R-P312/ . Of course, there must be sampling bias sometimes (R-L21 vs. R-U152, for instance); still... Point is, were they all comparatively super-fertile? Don't think so. :) I-PH908 and others also exemplifies as "lucky" in broad sense (one more elastic term) may play a role, and phenomena such founder effects are just an example of that. But mind you, this "lucky" would include also what I'd call "inertia", especially when there is continuity, but not only (it could happen as well after invasions/replacements in relation to newly introduced hgs and their new interactions in the new place). I mean, relative growth may continue to happen for some random reasons in each context, even in the more recent ones, however, importantly, they'll tend to correlate with some already frequent older hg. Let's say, a 75% hg would have more chances to "win the lottery" over some 15% different hg in a given place and in a given situation of expansion. So it'd work like a wave. But "improbabilities" may also happen, of course, and in some manner that's the history of Y-DNA.

Theoretically, certain mutations that define (sub-)haplogroups could also play some role, but I see no evidence that they are that important, at least not to the point to largely justify modern frequencies (see articles in my first comment on this subject). I really doubt, for instance, that haplogroups such R1a would from now on suplants over time other haplogroups such J2a in, let's say, Turkey, in the fashion of Bronze Age Europe, even if this country suffered some kind of foreign "intervention", je je. Or J2a in Eastern Europe in relation to R1a. Other times, other circumstances. Huge variations in frequency of the same clade in different places, including those where they have an ancient presence, are per se evidences of how lucky matters.
Too many variables in the game anyway, and it's hard to "exhaust" it in ("poor english") summarized texts like this one, and possibly even in deep professional works. :)

So that's the point. What if we compare younger clades, whatever the haplogroup? We could name them with whatever letters, in order to not being distracted by ancestor clades that previously experienced important expansions. Of course, even so - even talking in different timeframes -, modern Y-DNA frequencies/distributions are the most important reference in hand. Some old haplogroups are still "successful" in general and simple sense, not just because they expanded in frequency sometime in the past, but also because they keep being frequent (haven't retracted significantly in the last times). Also, belonging to certain subclade still implies belonging to certain clade (in the example in a previous comment, R1b-A8039 - rare - is still R1b-L151 - very common. So ok. All of this may be confusing because haplogroups are not people. :) This is highly complex, and I think some simplifications I've seen are just fun. I mean, 2/3 of European pop descending in male line from three BA kings? Were they coincidently affected at the same time by different super-SNPs? I mean, the three SNPs that define R1b-L151 worked for R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 but not to R1b-A8039? The same for others below, in each level. je je Come on! Really not about fertility. Anyway, if some mutations that help define certain frequent haplogroups are that important in some way, then we should know soon, as we know mtDNA hgs must have slight implications in health etc.

As a last example which applies to our time, I could mention Middle Eastern and North African subclades such as J1's, which must be growing in frequency in Europe and will keep growing in the next years, due to immigration (numbers don't distinguish it from invasion, lol), birth rate among ethnic groups etc. Under the perspective we're discussing here, it means these virtual entities are being "successful" at this time. Of course, the variables in the game are not the same, but they have never been the same and they never will be.

Conclusion is that, at this moment, given all complexity involved, modern haplogroup distribution/frequencies in general are hardly explained by significant physiological (dis)advantages, as far as I can see.

Sorry for the long text. I'm done now. It's completely off-topic. Just thought about it reading your post and decided to share. ;)

Thank you Regio. It was an authentic lesson of an expert on how the “lineages” of certain haplogroups may or may not thrive. In the dynamics of evolution there are variables that we cannot count on such as wars, plagues, climate change, successful or unsuccessful migrations, etc. In fact, mutations are always happening, and the great clades sometimes lose their meaning in face the mutations that, quickly, create new subclades, sometimes so far from the original clade. The clinical eye of an analyst like you can see the implications far downstream. Already a layman like me need something more aimed at beginners, as something more upstream, such as the good old clades of two letters and a number. LOL. Big Hug and thanks once again for invest in all those explanations that certainly are useful for all of us. ;)


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Thank you Regio. It was an authentic lesson of an expert on how the “lineages” of certain haplogroups may or may not thrive. In the dynamics of evolution there are variables that we cannot count on such as wars, plagues, climate change, successful or unsuccessful migrations, etc. In fact, mutations are always happening, and the great clades sometimes lose their meaning in face the mutations that, quickly, create new subclades, sometimes so far from the original clade. The clinical eye of an analyst like you can see the implications far downstream. Already a layman like me need something more aimed at beginners, as something more upstream, such as the good old clades of two letters and a number. LOL. Big Hug and thanks once again for invest in all those explanations that certainly are useful for all of us. ;)


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Dear friend, I'm not exactly an expert, but I'm glad my post was helpful in some way. :)
Hugs.

Cheers
 
Roman Latin Tribe Ardea R850:

PXaxwnL.jpg


jNebMM4.jpg


320px-Ardea12.JPG


I wish I had the gift of channeling ancient individuals like Carlos :grin:

I would have asked R850: “What's your name? ... Tell me about yourself!” :)
 
Last edited:
Before and after my Etruscan, Latin and Le Mans. tickets.


Before
YDNDISTRIBUTION.jpg

After

donutnweY.jpg


Before
Image%2B2.jpg


After

donutonewmtDNA.JPEG

ydnaR1a.JPEG

ydnaJ.JPEG


The J DNAY has been increased by the Etruscan sample.
R1a has increased by the Latin samples.
In mitochondrial DNA H has increased by Etruscan and Le Mans,
H1 + H3 by Latin
In this case, Latin is (H11a)
as shown by:
Frankish-Gaul /
Lombardy Italy and
Medieval France Saint-Laurent-de-la-Cabrerisse.
The Etruscan sample H coincides in my mitochondrial list with
Ilergetes Outlier Catalan,
Thracian Bulgaria,
Nordic Central Lombard,
Celtic Briton Gladiator York

Coincidence by dnaY
R-P311 - Latin Tribe Ardea
R-P311 - Crusader Knight French / Lebanon

For the Etruscan sample J-M12 - Etruscan Civitavecchia there is a coincidence of J but not J-M12

I'm spinning.

7. Etruscan Civitavecchia (650 BC) ..... 10.31 - R474 -
Modern Group
1. Spanish_Cantabria (8.376)
2. Spanish_Cataluna (9.761)
3. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (10.05)
4. Spanish_Aragon (10.35)
5. Southwest_French (10.35)
6. Portuguese (10.55)
7. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (10.87)
8. Spanish_Galicia (10.99)
Similar Samples
Roman Soldier Freiham-Nord Germany (300 AD) (5.479)
Visigoth Iberian Girona (550 AD) (5.576)
Roman Soldier Germany (300 AD) (6.617)
Ilergetes Tribe Catalan (600 BC) (8.192)
Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) (9.271)

44. Latin Prenestini Tribe Inland PC (400 BC) ..... 15.05 - R435
Modern Group
1. Spanish_Cantabria (15.10)
2. Southwest_French (16.65)
3. Spanish_Aragon (16.80)
4. Spanish_Cataluna (17.32)
5. Spanish_Basque (17.60)
6. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (17.80)
7. French_Basque (17.81)
8. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (18.04)
Similar Samples
Vasconic Tribe Empuries (275 BC) (4.092)
Roman Era Girona (80 AD) (4.845)
Carolingian (790 AD) (5.824)
Vasconic Tribe (275 BC) (5.831)
Celtibertian Mix (275 BC) (6.001)

78. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 17.51 - R851
Modern Group
1. Spanish_Cantabria (17.45)
2. Southwest_French (18.74)
3. Spanish_Aragon (19.88)
4. Spanish_Galicia (20.38)
5. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (20.77)
6. Spanish_Cataluna (20.84)
7. Portuguese (20.84)
8. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (20.87)
Similar Samples
Bronze Age Spain Cogotas (1290 BC) (5.307)
Bronze Age Northern Spain (1440 BC) (6.036)
Ilergetes Outlier Catalan (440 BC) (6.55)
Pre-Roman Girona (280 BC) (6.613)
Bronze Age Northern Spain (1560 BC) (7.257)




 
Roman Latin Tribe Ardea R850:

PXaxwnL.jpg


jNebMM4.jpg


320px-Ardea12.JPG


I wish I had the gift of channeling ancient individuals like Carlos :grin:

I would have asked R850: “What's your name? ... Tell me about yourself!” :)

@ Salento. Ask for yourself. He is in you. It is part of your essence. He will answer you. With your sensitivity you will know how to give him a name, and surely that was his name when was alive in ancient Rome. You, like Carlos, have the gift of creating and modeling images and figures. I see you already like him. Draw a picture of him and keep it just for yourself. Talk to him when you feel like it. Hugs dear friend.(y):)
 
Roman Latin Tribe Ardea R850:

PXaxwnL.jpg


jNebMM4.jpg


320px-Ardea12.JPG


I wish I had the gift of channeling ancient individuals like Carlos :grin:

I would have asked R850: “What's your name? ... Tell me about yourself!” :)

Sorry I hadn't seen it. I had the centrifuge in my head circling the subject. I will go to the oracle, I have already seen something, but I need more time. One moment, please.
 
The oracle Carlos has spoken:


They call him by a nickname, Caruso, Carusu, Carrizzo or something similar but pronouncing the rr.


He is sitting on a stool in his half-built cabin looking towards the door of the street while eating a beggar of hard bread, there are some pots but they contain few foods. He lived with his mother but now he is alone. He has straight and dark brown hair, thin between 1.65cm and 1.70cm, is thin, his nose is long and straight, his face is sharp towards his chin, his eyes are dark brown, the teeth on the sides are pitted bone with caries. His expression is neutral when he is alone, socially smiles, his only hope is survival. Sometimes something like this has been hidden from the guards, police or army. Sometimes he accompanied a young girl along a path to a fountain. He has acquaintances, friends but he goes free. He has had to steal to eat, the owner of an agricultural property does not swallow it, he hates it. A rope surrounds his hands while they tie a loop around his neck, they will hang him. He lived as he wanted or could and got rid of what he wanted or could.
 
The oracle Carlos has spoken:
They call him by a nickname, Caruso, Carusu, Carrizzo or something similar but pronouncing the rr.
He is sitting on a stool in his half-built cabin looking towards the door of the street while eating a beggar of hard bread, there are some pots but they contain few foods. He lived with his mother but now he is alone. He has straight and dark brown hair, thin between 1.65cm and 1.70cm, is thin, his nose is long and straight, his face is sharp towards his chin, his eyes are dark brown, the teeth on the sides are pitted bone with caries. His expression is neutral when he is alone, socially smiles, his only hope is survival. Sometimes something like this has been hidden from the guards, police or army. Sometimes he accompanied a young girl along a path to a fountain. He has acquaintances, friends but he goes free. He has had to steal to eat, the owner of an agricultural property does not swallow it, he hates it. A rope surrounds his hands while they tie a loop around his neck, they will hang him. He lived as he wanted or could and got rid of what he wanted or could.

Thanks Carlos, Thanks Duarte :)

That’s Great Carlos, I appreciate your Visions and the humanizing of the Ancient Samples.

R850 name is Carusu (means young man in my dialect)

from your description, I picture Carusu like this:

MeQCdGL.jpg


It’s a good thing that it’s you doing this type of thinking, because I was picturing Carusu to be more something like that: lol


zUVwZgy.jpg
 
The oracle Carlos has spoken:


They call him by a nickname, Caruso, Carusu, Carrizzo or something similar but pronouncing the rr.


He is sitting on a stool in his half-built cabin looking towards the door of the street while eating a beggar of hard bread, there are some pots but they contain few foods. He lived with his mother but now he is alone. He has straight and dark brown hair, thin between 1.65cm and 1.70cm, is thin, his nose is long and straight, his face is sharp towards his chin, his eyes are dark brown, the teeth on the sides are pitted bone with caries. His expression is neutral when he is alone, socially smiles, his only hope is survival. Sometimes something like this has been hidden from the guards, police or army. Sometimes he accompanied a young girl along a path to a fountain. He has acquaintances, friends but he goes free. He has had to steal to eat, the owner of an agricultural property does not swallow it, he hates it. A rope surrounds his hands while they tie a loop around his neck, they will hang him. He lived as he wanted or could and got rid of what he wanted or could.

Hi Carlos,

Good nickname. It reminds Enrico Caruso, Italian tenor, considered even by the illustrious Luciano Pavarotti, the greatest performer of classical music of all time. I know how is the loaded “rr”. It is typical of Portuguese spoken by the natives of Belo Horizonte and also of Rio de Janeiro. The “r” sounding loaded is also very common in some regions of Portugal, but in Brazil in general is uncommon. Caruso would have a familiar accent to me if he used the well-loaded “r's”. In Brazil, inland, it is more common use the retroflex "r" (considered very rustic), similar to "r" of US English. Also is very common in Brazil the use of soft sound of the “r” in Spanish. The loaded "r" and the soft "r" are well accepted in Belo Horizonte, but children who come from the countryside and talk with the "r" retroflex even become victims of bullying. It is a problem in schools. I liked the nickname. Congratulations on naming our Roman friend. He is no longer just a sample number.

Cheers :)
 
O.K. I'm going to officially ask for my money back. :)

My husband gets this:
3. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 10.3 - R850 - [FONT=&quot][/FONT] (Click for more info)
Top
[FONT=&quot]​
99
% match vs all users

[/FONT]
And I get nothing, nada, bupkis. ERRR!

 
Thanks Carlos, Thanks Duarte :)

That’s Great Carlos, I appreciate your Visions and the humanizing of the Ancient Samples.

R850 name is Carusu (means young man in my dialect)

from your description, I picture Carusu like this:

MeQCdGL.jpg


It’s a good thing that it’s you doing this type of thinking, because I was picturing Carusu to be more something like that: lol


zUVwZgy.jpg

Amazing Who is the one in the painting?. Very in that line but straight hair, eyes not so almond.
 
Hi Carlos,

Good nickname. It reminds Enrico Caruso, Italian tenor, considered even by the illustrious Luciano Pavarotti, the greatest performer of classical music of all time. I know how is the loaded “rr”. It is typical of Portuguese spoken by the natives of Belo Horizonte and also of Rio de Janeiro. The “r” sounding loaded is also very common in some regions of Portugal, but in Brazil in general is uncommon. Caruso would have a familiar accent to me if he used the well-loaded “r's”. In Brazil, inland, it is more common use the retroflex "r" (considered very rustic), similar to "r" of US English. Also is very common in Brazil the use of soft sound of the “r” in Spanish. The loaded "r" and the soft "r" are well accepted in Belo Horizonte, but children who come from the countryside and talk with the "r" retroflex even become victims of bullying. It is a problem in schools. I liked the nickname. Congratulations on naming our Roman friend. He is no longer just a sample number.

Cheers :)

Thank you, I really must be crazy about getting into these scrubs, but the oracle is the oracle. Finally it will be Carusu in the Salento dialect.
 
O.K. I'm going to officially ask for my money back. :)

My husband gets this:
3. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 10.3 - R850 - [FONT=&quot][/FONT] (Click for more info)
Top
[FONT=&quot]​
99
% match vs all users

[/FONT]
And I get nothing, nada, bupkis. ERRR!


Very cool, Angela. Congratulations to your husband, and "Have Caesar." :) Before I visiting Pompeii ruins, I wrote the word "Ave" without the "h", like in Portuguese. But there, when I entered in a house that was written "Have" with "h" on the entrance, I always write "Have" with "h" whenever I am quoting in Latin.


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Amazing Who is the one in the painting?. Very in that line but straight hair, eyes not so almond.

As Pax said ... :)

that’s the inspiration, but now is a new Carusu:
new hair, new nose, cavities, and eyes as for your Vision.


0cXkERq.jpg
 
As Pax said ... :)

that’s the inspiration, but now is a new Carusu:
new hair and eyes.

0cXkERq.jpg

The new Carusu is younger and happier. ;)


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He looks like a less good looking version of Gino D'Accampo, accomplished and sexy chef from Napoli who is a BIG hit in Britain, especially with the ladies. :)

gino-dacampo-arrives-at-the-tvchoice-awards-2010-held-at-the-on-6-picture-id103869004


If I had to pick one of the "THE" Most Iconic Italian looks, this would be it.

Here he is tanned:
Gino-D-Acampo-266143.jpg
 
As Pax said ... :)

that’s the inspiration, but now is a new Carusu:
new hair, new nose, cavities, and eyes as for your Vision.


0cXkERq.jpg

Very very close. The nose is very successful, sharp towards the chin, super, but the essence of Angela's cook goes around a lot, the nose does not. but that face yes, but in Carusu something less wide. Very very close to the vision of the oracle.
 
O.K. I'm going to officially ask for my money back. :)

My husband gets this:
3. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 10.3 - R850 - (Click for more info)
Top
99
% match vs all users

And I get nothing, nada, bupkis. ERRR!


I’m sure they’ll add many new samples soon, they must be working on it.

whom ever gets R850 (Carusu) has a connection with a very young Rome, besides being awesome :)

your other half should be proud.
 

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