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Thread: TRB-West origins and impact

  1. #1
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b/ E-V22

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Netherlands



    TRB-West origins and impact

    Last year a guy with the name FrankN posted this:


    https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-fir...st-group-adna/


    The Sorsum sample additionally suggests a sizeable WHG/SHG component in the TRB Tiefstichkeramik sphere that isn’t fully represented by the Gökhem samples, and most likely represents Swifterband-Erteboelle adstrate. In summary, TRB-Tiefstichkeramik may represent the fusion of both of the EEF streams (Mediterranean/Cardial, and Danubian/LBK, including their differing HG substrate), with North European post-Kongemose HG traditions.
    Sadly enough the reaction is not possible any longer.....I like to connect with him (may be a member here? or anyone who knows him?)


    OF COURSE OTHERS are invited to react too....


    This is my response:
    The TRB-West posting is a fascinating posting. Especially for me. My mother’s auDNA is only Hondsrug Drenthe. And as you know this is aTRB West hotspot!


    And when I analyse my mothers auDNA I get even for someone with North Dutch ancestry always (in eery PCA, admixture etc) a relative high HG (and sometimes somewhat enhanced EEF). Is this a late echo of TRB West? Or?


    These models are based on G25 Eurogenes. My mother is EBG (LB is me and JB my father, he is more generic North Dutch):


    sample”: “Test1:LB”,
    “fit”: 4.8715,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 40.83,
    “EEF”: 38.33,
    “SHG”: 20.83,


    “sample”: “Test2:JB”,
    “fit”: 4.7866,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 41.67,
    “EEF”: 40.83,
    “SHG”: 17.5,


    “sample”: “Test3:EBG”,
    “fit”: 4.5101,
    “EEF”: 40,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 38.33,
    “SHG”: 21.67,


    LB
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,38.6
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,21
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,19
    HUNTERS-WHG,11.8
    HUNTERS-SHG,9.6


    [1] “distance%=5.0813”


    JB
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,41.6
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,23.8
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,18.2
    HUNTERS-WHG,12.2
    HUNTERS-SHG,4.2


    [1] “distance%=4.842”


    EBG
    STEPPE-Eneolithic,33
    FARMERS-Iberia_Neolithic,26.6
    HUNTERS-SHG,17.6
    FARMERS-Balkans_Neolithic,16.2
    HUNTERS-WHG,6.6


    Nmonte G25 webrunner pen= 0,001
    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_LB”,
    “fit”: 4.6773,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 49.17,
    “Barcin_N”: 30.83,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 20,


    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser JB”,
    “fit”: 4.5702,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 48.33,
    “Barcin_N”: 33.33,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 18.33,


    “Custom:AGUser EBG “,
    “fit”: 4.4682,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 45.83,
    “Barcin_N”: 32.5,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 21.67,


    Pen=0
    “sample”: “Custom:AGUser_LB”,
    “fit”: 4.2941,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 45.83,
    “Barcin_N”: 31.67,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 22.5,


    “sample”: “Custom: JB”,
    “fit”: 4.2305,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 46.67,
    “Barcin_N”: 33.33,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 20,


    “sample”: “Custom:EBG”,
    “fit”: 4.0873,
    “Yamnaya_Samara”: 44.17,
    “Barcin_N”: 32.5,
    “Blatterhole_HG”: 23.33,

    From the text:
    More plausible, however, is a sizeable SHG element picked up in the SW Baltic Sea area, from where the Tiefstich expansion originated (and from where we unfortunately don’t have any aDNA, neither Erteboelle nor TRB, so far).

    Mother father, Pickerell Geneplaza:
    * mother





    *father





    Mother has definately a NE European touch.

  2. #2
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    I think the fits could be better if you used more proximate sources. How many dimensions did you use in the PCA?
    What EEF did you use? Considering you're using Yamnaya_Samara and testing a North European population, I think the analysis could be a bit more useful and accurate if you used a LN or Chalcolithic North European EEF, which would probably include more WHG. I would also add, besides EEF, Yamnaya and SHG, a Caucasian/Iranian source, since we know it came to Europe at least from the Chalcolithic. But it wouldn't probably change much, since you're from North European heritage. In any case, did you try using WHG and EHG separately instead of SHG to see if the fits become better or worse?

    This is what I could find for TRB samples using 10 dimensions (I've noticed when some of the reference populations are chronologically too distant the fits are much more plausible when you use fewer dimensions, unlike when the comparison involves chronologically closer populations, e.g. medieval vs. modern individuals). They show no EHG. On the other hand, using the same model, SHG can only be best modelled as ~51% WHG + ~49% EHG.


    [1] "distance%=0.4562 / distance=0.004562"

    Sweden_TRB

    Barcin_N 72.5
    WHG 27.4

    [1] "distance%=0.6826 / distance=0.006826"

    Poland_TRB

    Barcin_N 81.6
    WHG 18.4
    [1] "distance%=0.2766 / distance=0.002766"

    Sweden_LN

    WHG 33.4
    Barcin_N 26.6
    CHG 25.8
    EHG 14.3

    [1] "distance%=0.7324 / distance=0.007324"

    Sweden_Motala_HG

    WHG 50.9
    EHG 49.1


    For other Neolithic and Late Neolithic (interestingly, Sweden_LN looks somewhat steppe-like with its high CHG+EHG):

    [1] "distance%=0.2766 / distance=0.002766"

    Sweden_LN

    WHG 33.4
    Barcin_N 26.6
    CHG 25.8
    EHG 14.3

    distance%=1.0282 / distance=0.010282"

    Germany_MN

    Barcin_N 79.7
    WHG 20.3



  3. #3
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    Thanks for the advice Ygorcs!

    The idea is that TRB is originated in the SW Baltics, the oldest traces are found in Sarnowo, NE Poland.

    And taken your advice in account Narva Estonia stays 'stubborn'.

    With LBK Stuttgart/Germany


    With Germany MN



    With German MN and WHG


    My mother has twice as much Narva as Dutch average.....

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