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Thread: Spread of agriculture in Western Eurasia-New Map

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    7 out of 8 members found this post helpful.

    Spread of agriculture in Western Eurasia-New Map



    This is based on work by a group including Krause. Is this part of the reason why he thinks perhaps Anatolian languages arose in situ and then a form of them went into the steppe.

    Also very glad to see the split migrations out of southeast Anatolia, with the one heading very early to Cyprus heading on to not only hit Greece (Greek Neolithic?) but to become Cardial. I always speculated that might be the case.

    The dates are all BC.



    https://www.academia.edu/9424525/Map...19.1_backstop_


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think, he big mistake he made is that he didn't recognize 3 genetically distinct founder groups of farmers. Instead we have traditional area of fertile crescent as a starting point, one farming culture. This should be updated in accordance with current knowledge.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I think, he big mistake he made is that he didn't recognize 3 genetically distinct founder groups of farmers. Instead we have traditional area of fertile crescent as a starting point, one farming culture. This should be updated in accordance with current knowledge.
    That's not what he's talking about. His starting point is the migration out of the traditional areas. By the time the farmers started moving out the "farming package" was complete. The movement to Cyprus, for example, included not only seeds for their crops, but pulses, and domesticated animals, along with dogs. We know that from many prior papers.

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    So they splitted ~11500 years ago, and then some of them met again ~4000 years later...

    It would have been more than one wave through Balkan, no? The first wouldn't have had much effect on the genetic heritage of Europeans, supposedly, according to this (old) paper - based on mtDNA:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0128810
    Last edited by Regio X; 16-04-19 at 02:32.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This map needs a key. What are the question marks-- suspected introgression from those areas? Krause was quoted in this article, which was published the same day as the related study. It stated that farming was adopted in Anatolia, and 90% of the first farmer's ancestry (8300 to 7300 BCE ) had continuity with Anatolian hunter gatherer. At 7600 to 6000 BCE, ancestral percentages from the Levant were only 20% That brimgs me to the question, are these dotted arrows on the map cultural or demic? They appear to represent cultural shifts rather than genetic.

    I'm colorblind, but it looks like the Caucasus is shaded the same color as the Anatolian coast of the Bosporus and the Balkans, only identified as 200 years older. Basically, it's looking like Northern Mesopotamia is the connector of these points, though it's not colored with anything but a dull gray that appears to be used as filler. That kind of matches what Maciamo describes here.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Love this topic. Grew up in a farm community, family still owns 750 tillable acres. I work in agriculture now for a large German biotech company

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    Quote Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
    Love this topic. Grew up in a farm community, family still owns 750 tillable acres. I work in agriculture now for a large German biotech company
    Me too. I've always got a soft spot for the farmers, probably because my mother's family still owned quite a bit of farmland when I was young. Those are some of my favorite memories, although I loved the crops much more than the animals. I didn't much care for the pigs and the chickens or even the few cows they had. The sheep I liked. :) It was the olive trees, and the grape vines, and all the fruit trees, especially the cherry trees and peach trees, and the hazelnut and almond trees, and even just the hay. I love the smell of it growing and then the harvest.

    I liked foraging a lot, too: edible greens like dandelion, wild broccoli, wild herbs, mushrooms, and chestnuts. They'd give me a bag and off I'd go with one of the dogs.

    One of my relatives still has some of the land. I've gone back for harvest, although my husband thought I was mad. Can't really explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it, I guess.

    I'd give a lot to get all of it back. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is based on work by a group including Krause. Is this part of the reason why he thinks perhaps Anatolian languages arose in situ and then a form of them went into the steppe.

    Also very glad to see the split migrations out of southeast Anatolia, with the one heading very early to Cyprus heading on to not only hit Greece (Greek Neolithic?) but to become Cardial. I always speculated that might be the case.

    The dates are all BC.



    https://www.academia.edu/9424525/Map...19.1_backstop_
    Based on this map, it becomes really difficult to explain why on earth, then, the farmers of Anatolia, Levant and Iran/South-Central Asia were all so very distinct from each other, unless it refers to a cultural and economic package, not to populations. Also, if this is part of the reason why he thinks Anatolian IE arose in situ, I think his team is assuming an extremely low rate of linguistic evolution for PIE languages. If the divergence between those who stayed and those who migrated to East Europe was as early as during the initial expansion of farming, then that would make PIE a >8,500BP language, between 2,000 and 3,000 years older than what most linguists now consider it to be (its last stage before splitting into diverse groups, of course). Also, in the map it would look mroe like PIE, if it came from the south, is associated with early Caucasian farmers, not with Anatolians.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As I said to LeBroc above, the farmers who went to Europe went there after there had already been an amalgamation in terms of the "Neolithic" package, secondary products and all. I think by that time there was already some absorption of "CHG"/Iran Neo like ancestry wasn't there? The Levantine was also there wasn't it, if hidden?

    I don't know if the movement of Anatolian genes into the Caucasus had already taken place by the time they left. It's at least 2000 years after the agriculture in southern Anatolia developed, and 3000 years after the first farming in the Levant.

    I'd have to go back and check all those papers to be sure, though.

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    I'm surprised that the Nile valley does not appear on the map, ...

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    I would like to see a legend for the colors. Some appear to be tied to a time scale, as in the Fertile Crescent and eastern & western Anatolia, while others seem to be tied to cultures, Cardial and LBK for instance, both occurring at about the same time but using two different color schemes. I also see what looks like Funnel Beaker in yellow, but the same color is used in southeast England.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The guy also seem to believe R1b-V88 came from Africa to Sardigna, because no Arrows goes to Africa, but two Arrows goes to Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said to LeBroc above, the farmers who went to Europe went there after there had already been an amalgamation in terms of the "Neolithic" package, secondary products and all. I think by that time there was already some absorption of "CHG"/Iran Neo like ancestry wasn't there? The Levantine was also there wasn't it, if hidden?

    I don't know if the movement of Anatolian genes into the Caucasus had already taken place by the time they left. It's at least 2000 years after the agriculture in southern Anatolia developed, and 3000 years after the first farming in the Levant.

    I'd have to go back and check all those papers to be sure, though.
    A recent paper talked on a limited role of demic diffusion in the advent of farming in Anatolia, suggesting genetic continuity. However, the first ANFs would have already some minor Iran and Levant Neo ancestries, still according to this paper. But perhaps I lost the definition of demic diffusion? Maybe someone could help me on this. Does it depend necessarily on some genetic discontinuity?
    I ask it because AAF period, in Neolithic transition, was associated to the introduction of minor Iranian Farmer related ancestry, while ACF was related to minor Levant Neo. So, it's intuitive the idea that the process began, yes, with some role of a new genetic element. However, how do we know that more Eastern people didn't have already a substantial chunck of Anatolian related ancestry, additionaly to Iranian? In this case, and if new elements of ancestry are not mandatory for the characterization of demic diffusion, it would possibly mean that there was some demic diffusion after all, no? I didn't read all the paper, so not sure if they considered something like this.

    We'd need more ancient samples from other areas and times anyway.

    @halfalp
    I don't see arrows crossing the Mediterranean from South to North. Rather, there's one going South to NW Africa, from Iberia, if I get it correctly.

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    The two arrows seem to come out of the middle of the desert ... and the Nile valley, according to this map, was part of the desert too ...

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    A recent paper talked on a limited role of demic diffusion in the advent of farming in Anatolia, suggesting genetic continuity. However, the first ANFs would have already some minor Iran and Levant Neo ancestries, still according to this paper. But perhaps I lost the definition of demic diffusion? Maybe someone could help me on this. Does it depend necessarily on some genetic discontinuity?
    I ask it because AAF period, in Neolithic transition, was associated to the introduction of minor Iranian Farmer related ancestry, while ACF was related to minor Levant Neo. So, it's intuitive the idea that the process began, yes, with some role of a new genetic element. However, how do we know that more Eastern people didn't have already a substantial chunck of Anatolian related ancestry, additionaly to Iranian? In this case, and if new elements of ancestry are not mandatory for the characterization of demic diffusion, it would possibly mean that there was some demic diffusion after all, no? I didn't read all the paper, so not sure if they considered something like this.

    We'd need more ancient samples from other areas and times anyway.

    @halfalp
    I don't see arrows crossing the Mediterranean from South to North. Rather, there's one going South to NW Africa, from Iberia, if I get it correctly.
    In the discussions of that paper, I think I said that the authors didn't prove to my satisfaction that there was no gene flow at all and just a movement of "technology".

    Separate from that, the fact remains that the Anatolian farmers contain Levant Neo and some Iran Neo. If it didn't come in enough numbers during the development of agriculture, then it must have happened while they were all still hunter-gatherers.

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