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Thread: A Transient Pulse of Genetic Admixture from the Crusaders

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Polman View Post
    Elucidating, we've five Europeans (2 Germans, Spaniard and 2 Mediterraneans). Let me guess, you are going to show us that the Near Easterners were Christian Armenians? No admixtures?
    What are you talking about? Have you at least read the study? It seems not.

  2. #27
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    one of the sidon medieval remains SI-38 was E-L677 } i think it is E-V22
    cool :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    What are you talking about? Have you at least read the study? It seems not.
    Excuse me for being imprecise in my (supportive) reaction. I read from your analysis that five samples from the pit could be considered as European, although some are put in an admixed group in the paper. I just wondered whether additional observations could be made regarding the samples from the pit which were classified as near eastern.
    Last edited by Mark Polman; 20-04-19 at 17:47.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    They seem very close to modern Lebanese, so it might not be very likely. Did anyone run them?

    41 is odd. Halfway between the Portuguese and Northern Italians? Did we really get a stray Corsican? Or maybe the other analysis is correct, and he was southeastern Iberian, maybe Baleares?

    I still don't see an actual explanation that works for why the WHG in modern Levantines is from the Ottomans.

    I'm not very impressed, I must say.

    In one way, some of the reactions are pretty funny. Of course number 53 is southern Italian; after all, he's half Levantine! Except, he was probably Greek. :)


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    I'm kind of late to the discussion. Did the researchers provide informtation on the SNPs, so that the terminal SNPs could be discovered on any of these individuals? In particular, I was wondering if anyone knew how to figure out the terminal SNP of the DF27 individual, thought to be from Iberia.

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    Hello, I became interested in SI-41 since he was listed as 97% sample match with a genetic distance of 15.396 and is listed as DF-27. I am DF-27 (which could be the only thing connecting us) but come from Scottish ancestry, so I'm not so sure why he is listed as Iberian. I Gedmatch in Eurogenes 13 as Northern Italian with a single population sharing. Mixed mode is Italian Abruzzo (my mother) and Orcadian ('Scottish' my father). Just saying that DF27 is not strictly Iberian by the thirteenth century. You are all light years ahead of me with this, but just suggesting.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    one of the sidon medieval remains SI-38 was E-L677 } i think it is E-V22
    cool :)
    Do you have more data? It is a crusader, does not appear on the graph?

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilchrist View Post
    Hello, I became interested in SI-41 since he was listed as 97% sample match with a genetic distance of 15.396 and is listed as DF-27. I am DF-27 (which could be the only thing connecting us) but come from Scottish ancestry, so I'm not so sure why he is listed as Iberian. I Gedmatch in Eurogenes 13 as Northern Italian with a single population sharing. Mixed mode is Italian Abruzzo (my mother) and Orcadian ('Scottish' my father). Just saying that DF27 is not strictly Iberian by the thirteenth century. You are all light years ahead of me with this, but just suggesting.
    Hello, I have correspondence with this crusader.

    35. Crusader Knight French / Lebanon (1250 AD) ..... 14.61
    - SI-40
    Top 98%

    mtDNA: U5a1g
    Y-DNA: R-P311

    Modern Group
    1. Southwest_French (9.072)

    2. Spanish_Aragon (10.55)
    3. Spanish_Valencia (11.45)
    4. Spanish_Cantabria (11.72)
    5. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (12.31)
    6. Spanish_Andalucia (12.80)
    7. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (12.92)
    8. French_Basque (13.15)

    Similar Samples
    Boscombe Bowmen Amesbury (2300 BC) (9.112)
    Iron Age Catalan (620 BC) (10.9)
    Roman-Carthago Mix Iberia (80 AD) (10.92)
    Vascones Tribe Vasconia (280 BC) (11.31)
    Ilergetes Tribe Catalan (200 BC) (11.86)

    This would be the Iberian crusader as you say. You can see yours Si40 located to the right, look at the graph.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindsyHal View Post
    Anyone know of any recent books on the economy of the Medieval Era, Middle Ages, whatever you want to call it. Ive read everything by Miskimin and Spufford, but I was wondering if there was anything more recent, as in not from the 60s.
    Not. But you will write its!
    Is your transistor spinning?

  10. #35
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    do we have anything more on this crusader

    Sidon Crusader ( 700 yBP - Medieval )


    SI-42
    Y-DNA: T1a-M70 (xCTS10577, CTS8051, FGC1272, FGC1249, CTS11626, CTS7001, CTS382, FGC1180, PF5521, CTS5499, CTS1599, FGC1517, CTS4435, FGC1200, PF5663, CTS11431, FGC1286, FGC1292, FGC1264, CTS9703, FGC1290, CTS4831, PF7460, CTS10618, PF5571, CTS12114, CTS9717, FGC1291)
    mtDNA: J1b1a1

    All I have is that he was a Lars/Persian person.............but that could be an error
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4o
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  11. #36
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    SI 53 does seem to have high West Asian and low Red Sea so if we're ruling out a Southern Italian or Greek then could we be looking at someone of mixed Euro/Caucasus heritage rather than Lebanese.

  12. #37
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I think SI-53 is in fact a Southern Italian, he can be modeled very well with the C6 Mediterranean cluster from Antonio M et al. 2019. Even Isolf Lazaridis agrees that SI-53 falls into the modern and ancient European source population continuum.

    I have a very close affinity to SI-53.

    SI-41, is indeed an admixed individual, however.





    Furthermore, according to the admixture chart in the study, SI-53 has far too little Levant_N to be a mix between Hungarians, and Lebanese, IMO.
    Ancient West Eurasia

    Calculator Versions:


  13. #38
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think SI-53 is in fact a Southern Italian, he can be modeled very well with the C6 Mediterranean cluster from Antonio M et al. 2019. Even Isolf Lazaridis agrees that SI-53 falls into the modern and ancient European source population continuum.

    I have a very close affinity to SI-53.

    SI-41, is indeed an admixed individual, however.





    Furthermore, according to the admixture chart in the study, SI-53 has far too little Levant_N to be a mix between Hungarians, and Lebanese, IMO.
    SI-53's top matches are with Mediterranean-stock Romans, C6:




  14. #39
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    My Greek friend that I have posted before, a mix of islander+mainlander.He seems to be quite close to SI-53

    G25
    Code:
    Distance to: Chris_scaled
    0.02345751 IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
    0.02776688 Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
    0.02853196 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136
    0.03053033 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR49
    0.03074305 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR969
    0.03080654 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR64
    0.03081268 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR835
    0.03084855 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR57
    0.03094529 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117
    0.03138511 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR973
    0.03144237 IND_Roopkund_B:I2869
    0.03161758 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK534
    0.03183653 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR56
    0.03185663 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR54
    0.03227941 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK537
    0.03248507 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1290
    0.03294157 IND_Roopkund_B:I3405
    0.03319056 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
    0.03319961 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.03424201 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR35
    0.03424486 IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
    0.03425950 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121
    0.03501539 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
    0.03511035 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137
    0.03540495 ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR131

    Dodecad K12b
    Distance to: Chris
    4.28588381 CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53
    4.63219171 R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.05022772 R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    5.34406213 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.56840193 R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    5.62346868 R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    5.64285389 R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
    5.82512661 R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    6.12218915 R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.14947152 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.29856333 R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.30786018 R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche
    6.48573049 R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    6.92205172 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    6.97249597 Collegno110
    6.99639907 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.29782844 R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    7.37931569 R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    7.43180328 R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.45076506 R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    7.91697543 R69_Imperial_Era_ANAS
    8.10577572 R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    8.11352574 R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    8.19114766 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    8.21347673 R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    Target: Chris
    Distance: 1.0722% / 1.07218643 | ADC: 0.25x
    59.4 CrusaderKnightApuliaAbruzzoLebanonCrusaderSI53
    25.8 R69_Imperial_Era_ANAS
    5.8 R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    4.6 RISE397_Kapan_Armenia_2807_years
    3.0 RISE412_Noratus_Armenia_2885_years
    1.4 Szolad20

    Dodecad K7 ancient
    Code:
    Distance to: Chris
    2.78598277 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    2.79025088 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R973_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti
    3.07597139 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    3.23270784 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R57_Villa_Magna
    3.61160629 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R49_Centocelle_Necropolis
    3.83717344 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R64_Villa_Magna
    4.77189690 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R47_Centocelle_Necropolis
    4.92893498 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R1544_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    4.97361036 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R436_Palestrina
    5.05517557 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R65_Villa_Magna
    5.20894423 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R117_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.55439466 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R1290_Villa_Magna
    5.61166642 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R58_Villa_Magna
    5.73081146 Foggia_MA:VK534
    5.77836482 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R131_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    5.84485244 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R122_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    5.93225927 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R136_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    6.02205945 C6_Late_Antiquity_Mediterranean:R121_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    6.08287761 C5_Late_Antiquity_Eastern_Mediterranean:R32_Mausole_di_Augusto
    6.09573621 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R60_Villa_Magna
    6.12742197 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R56_Villa_Magna
    6.16151767 C5_Imperial_Eastern_Mediterranean:R69_ANAS
    6.23693033 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R835_Civitanova_Marche
    6.24185069 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R59_Villa_Magna
    6.35823089 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R53_Villa_Magna
    Target: Chris
    Distance: 0.7319% / 0.73190085 | ADC: 0.25x
    69.2 C6_Imperial_Mediterranean:R836_Civitanova_Marche
    16.8 C6_Medieval_Mediterranean:R54_Villa_Magna
    13.4 Armenia_ChL:I1631
    0.6 Yamnaya:I0441_Kurmanaevka_III_Buzuluk_Samara

  15. #40
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    SI53 in eurogenes k13
    he cluster with italian abruzzo
    i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
    ( yes as mention above by matadworf his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency )


    Kit ZX8440629

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.77
    2 North_Atlantic 20.57
    3 West_Asian 19.69
    4 West_Med 17.03
    5 Baltic 9.63
    6 Red_Sea 2.54
    7 South_Asian 2.24
    8 Oceanian 0.53

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Abruzzo 6.02
    2 Central_Greek 7.11
    3 East_Sicilian 8.55
    4 South_Italian 9.27
    5 West_Sicilian 9.93
    6 Greek_Thessaly 9.98
    7 Ashkenazi 11.73
    8 Tuscan 13.08
    9 Sephardic_Jewish 14.39
    10 Italian_Jewish 15.37
    11 Bulgarian 16.04
    12 Algerian_Jewish 16.37
    13 Turkish 17.37
    14 Romanian 17.59
    15 North_Italian 18.21
    16 Tunisian_Jewish 18.47
    17 Cyprian 19.23
    18 Libyan_Jewish 19.25
    19 Lebanese_Muslim 20.81
    20 Serbian 21.66

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 85.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.5% Lezgin @ 2.93
    2 85.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.1% Tabassaran @ 3.09
    3 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Kumyk @ 3.17

  16. #41
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ... top 10 dod K12 Ancient - Apulia
    (... Salento_me + Abruzzo on Source)
    ... notice SI-53Crusader:


  17. #42
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    SI53 in eurogenes k13
    he cluster with italian abruzzo
    i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
    ( yes as mention above by matadworf his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency )


    Kit ZX8440629

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.77
    2 North_Atlantic 20.57
    3 West_Asian 19.69
    4 West_Med 17.03
    5 Baltic 9.63
    6 Red_Sea 2.54
    7 South_Asian 2.24
    8 Oceanian 0.53

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Abruzzo 6.02
    2 Central_Greek 7.11
    3 East_Sicilian 8.55
    4 South_Italian 9.27
    5 West_Sicilian 9.93
    6 Greek_Thessaly 9.98
    7 Ashkenazi 11.73
    8 Tuscan 13.08
    9 Sephardic_Jewish 14.39
    10 Italian_Jewish 15.37
    11 Bulgarian 16.04
    12 Algerian_Jewish 16.37
    13 Turkish 17.37
    14 Romanian 17.59
    15 North_Italian 18.21
    16 Tunisian_Jewish 18.47
    17 Cyprian 19.23
    18 Libyan_Jewish 19.25
    19 Lebanese_Muslim 20.81
    20 Serbian 21.66

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 85.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.5% Lezgin @ 2.93
    2 85.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.1% Tabassaran @ 3.09
    3 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Kumyk @ 3.17
    That's probably just an artifact of using K13, I haven't seen anything striking like that for it in the Dodecad calculators that would suggest that. He looks like a normal Southern Italian sample to me. In the 3D PCA it's X,Y,&Z axis all fall in line perfectly for it. Moreover, SI-53 is indeed very close to Abruzzo. Also, since it will not perfectly fit the sample choosing Abruzzo, the algorithm will arbitrarily pick something like that to try to get the closest possible fit, however, we need to use our discretion to consider if it is a likely scenario. IMO, he was a southern Italian that went off to the Crusades, his paternal and maternal lineages can be found in Europe.

  18. #43
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    That's probably just an artifact of using K13, I haven't seen anything striking like that for it in the Dodecad calculators that would suggest that. He looks like a normal Southern Italian sample to me. In the 3D PCA it's X,Y,&Z axis all fall in line perfectly for it. Moreover, SI-53 is indeed very close to Abruzzo. Also, since it will not perfectly fit the sample choosing Abruzzo, the algorithm will arbitrarily pick something like that to try to get the closest possible fit, however, we need to use our discretion to consider if it is a likely scenario. IMO, he was a southern Italian that went off to the Crusades, his paternal and maternal lineages can be found in Europe.
    Eurogenes' modern calculators are "off", by his own admission. I don't think his ancient ones are all that great either. That's what happens when you cherry pick sources to get the results you want; you don't get consistency.

    That's why Dodecad, even though it's older, is so much more consistent.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    SI53 in eurogenes k13
    he cluster with italian abruzzo
    i agree very likely he was somekind of central italian
    ( yes as mention above by matadworf his red sea % is very low and he do have some caucasus tendency )


    Kit ZX8440629

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 27.77
    2 North_Atlantic 20.57
    3 West_Asian 19.69
    4 West_Med 17.03
    5 Baltic 9.63
    6 Red_Sea 2.54
    7 South_Asian 2.24
    8 Oceanian 0.53

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Abruzzo 6.02
    2 Central_Greek 7.11
    3 East_Sicilian 8.55
    4 South_Italian 9.27
    5 West_Sicilian 9.93
    6 Greek_Thessaly 9.98
    7 Ashkenazi 11.73
    8 Tuscan 13.08
    9 Sephardic_Jewish 14.39
    10 Italian_Jewish 15.37
    11 Bulgarian 16.04
    12 Algerian_Jewish 16.37
    13 Turkish 17.37
    14 Romanian 17.59
    15 North_Italian 18.21
    16 Tunisian_Jewish 18.47
    17 Cyprian 19.23
    18 Libyan_Jewish 19.25
    19 Lebanese_Muslim 20.81
    20 Serbian 21.66

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 85.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.5% Lezgin @ 2.93
    2 85.9% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.1% Tabassaran @ 3.09
    3 83.3% Italian_Abruzzo + 16.7% Kumyk @ 3.17

    Abruzzesi are southern Italian, not central Italian. Distance is 6, not a best fit, it should be seen in a PCA.


    85.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 14.5% Lezgin


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Eurogenes' modern calculators are "off", by his own admission. I don't think his ancient ones are all that great either. That's what happens when you cherry pick sources to get the results you want; you don't get consistency.

    That's why Dodecad, even though it's older, is so much more consistent.

    All Eurogenes tools, including the G25, have huge flaws. But Dodecad has a lot of problems as well.

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