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Thread: Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain

    the last 2 days we have a lot of blog publications in Greece

    Mainly Due to That,

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-019-0871-9

    ''we detect no resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry at any time during the Neolithic in Britain. Genetic affinities with Iberian Neolithic individuals indicate that British Neolithic people were mostly descended from Aegean farmers who followed the Mediterranean route of dispersal.''

    That started a lot of publications, in Blogs and magazines
    mainly by Pr Tsikritzis

    it seems that Stonehedge were build by them, and were Callendars, time estimation monuments
    and are build according THE MINOAN MOON MONTH,

    the work of
    Ι. Velsing (2017) and the publications of Tsikritzis (2011)
    and the new article of Nature journal 15/4/2019) I Link above

    seems to be combined in the Palaikastro disk
    and also Minoans maybe spoke IE
    (you understand what this might bring if proved correct)

    so after the Journal article, the Velsing work, now Tsikritzis reopens his works on the Minoan callendar, the Minoan year and moon month,
    Notice the Bellow




    the difference among Stonehdge and Palaikastro Disk is just a few grades in the axis of inner circle, and one more 'hole' (57-58 in inner is the difference,)
    all other are just the same, 3 circles, 3 axis and one vertical, and
    59 holes outer, moon month =29.5 days average is typical

    it Seems Early Minoans still manage to surprise us all

    It is known the Κασσιτεριδες Νησοι (British Islands) and especially Cornwall, were visited by Minoans before the rest of all Medittereneans,
    it is known that Minoan Κρατερωμα was the best at his era, while was proto invented at 4000 BC around at Messopotamia.

    yet First κρατερωμα (tin Bronze, had tin tin from minor Asia, which estimations say that finish around same time)

    we speak about tin mearchant from Cornwall to Aegean around 1500 BC
    But the late genetical and archaiological (if we consider such the Palaikastro disk)
    Seems that Early Aegeans and possibly Minoans inhabit Britain BEFORE 1900 BC

    Besides Pr Tsikritzis also identified Linear A at Stonehedges, as many Blogs say

    YET for I am still precautious on the above,
    cause I find no link or photo of his work in blogs,
    and probably could be proved a spam in future,Anyway until now we had Minoan connection to Britain around 1500 BC
    today possibly we have before 1900 BC at least, (could be older)
    yet the 'blue stones' are estimated around 1900 BC by Velsing

    Neolithic people and Minoan people still surprise us,
    Could Neolithic Britain spoke like early Cretan or Aegean population?besides if the blogs are correct the stonehedge were called in Linear A as sto-na
    or the Minoan Callendar was called sto-na
    we might be in more surprises soon,
    Yet I am still not a believer to that of Linear A claim
    Until I see more work and publications to that,


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    the Aegean farmers are the Carded Ware people, who were in Corfu 8.4 ka and landed in eastern Iberia 7.6 ka, mainly G2a
    farmers arrived in tbe British Isles ca 6.1 ka, they were I2a with EEF

    Minoans arrived in the Aegean 5.2 ka, and they were J2
    I don't see the connection

    furthermore the British neolithic farmers made some earthen walls (henges) in Stonehenge, but they didn't put the stones
    the stones were erected by the early Bell Beakers in the British Isles, 4.5 ka

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    The history of human settlements in the British Isles is very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Stonehenge: DNA reveals origin of builders


    By Paul Rincon
    Science
    editor, BBC News website

    16 April 2019



    The ancestors of the people who built Stonehenge travelled west across the Mediterranean before reaching Britain, a study has shown.
    Researchers compared DNA extracted from Neolithic human remains found across Britain with that of people alive at the same time in Europe.
    The Neolithic inhabitants were descended from populations originating in Anatolia (modern Turkey) that moved to Iberia before heading north.
    They reached Britain in about 4,000BC.
    Details have been published in the journal Nature Ecology & Evolution.
    The migration to Britain was just one part of a general, massive expansion of people out of Anatolia in 6,000BC that introduced farming to Europe.
    Before that, Europe was populated by small, travelling groups which hunted animals and gathered wild plants and shellfish.
    One group of early farmers followed the river Danube up into Central Europe, but another group travelled west across the Mediterranean.
    DNA reveals that Neolithic Britons were largely descended from groups who took the Mediterranean route, either hugging the coast or hopping from island-to-island on boats. Some British groups had a minor amount of ancestry from groups that followed the Danube route.




    When the researchers analysed the DNA of early British farmers, they found they most closely resembled Neolithic people from Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal). These Iberian farmers were descended from people who had journeyed across the Mediterranean.
    From Iberia, or somewhere close, the Mediterranean farmers travelled north through France. They might have entered Britain from the west, through Wales or south-west England. Indeed, radiocarbon dates suggest that Neolithic people arrived marginally earlier in the west, but this remains a topic for future work.
    In addition to farming, the Neolithic migrants to Britain appear to have introduced the tradition of building monuments using large stones known as megaliths. Stonehenge in Wiltshire was part of this tradition.
    Although Britain was inhabited by groups of "western hunter-gatherers" when the farmers arrived in about 4,000BC, DNA shows that the two groups did not mix very much at all.
    The British hunter-gatherers were almost completely replaced by the Neolithic farmers, apart from one group in western Scotland, where the Neolithic inhabitants had elevated local ancestry. This could have come down to the farmer groups simply having greater numbers.
    "We don't find any detectable evidence at all for the local British western hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Neolithic farmers after they arrive," said co-author Dr Tom Booth, a specialist in ancient DNA from the Natural History Museum in London.
    "That doesn't mean they don't mix at all, it just means that maybe their population sizes were too small to have left any kind of genetic legacy."
    Co-author Professor Mark Thomas, from UCL, said he also favoured "a numbers game explanation".




    Professor Thomas said the Neolithic farmers had probably had to adapt their practices to different climatic conditions as they moved across Europe. But by the time they reached Britain they were already "tooled up" and well-prepared for growing crops in a north-west European climate.
    The study also analysed DNA from these British hunter-gatherers. One of the skeletons analysed was that of Cheddar Man, whose skeletal remains have been dated to 7,100BC.
    He was the subject of a reconstruction unveiled at the Natural History Museum last year. DNA suggests that, like most other European hunter-gatherers of the time, he had dark skin combined with blue eyes.
    Genetic analysis shows that the Neolithic farmers, by contrast, were paler-skinned with brown eyes and black or dark-brown hair.
    Towards the end of the Neolithic, in about 2,450BC, the descendants of the first farmers were themselves almost entirely replaced when a new population - called the Bell Beaker people - migrated from mainland Europe. So Britain saw two extreme genetic shifts in the space of a few thousand years.
    Prof Thomas said that this later event happened after the Neolithic population had been in decline for some time, both in Britain and across Europe. He cautioned against simplistic explanations invoking conflict, and said the shifts ultimately came down to "economic" factors, about which lifestyles were best suited to exploit the landscape.
    Dr Booth explained: "It's difficult to see whether the two [genetic shifts] could have anything in common - they're two very different kinds of change. There's speculation that they're to some extent population collapses. But the reasons suggested for those two collapses are different, so it could just be coincidence."

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Aegean farmers are the Carded Ware people, who were in Corfu 8.4 ka and landed in eastern Iberia 7.6 ka, mainly G2a
    farmers arrived in tbe British Isles ca 6.1 ka, they were I2a with EEF

    Minoans arrived in the Aegean 5.2 ka, and they were J2
    I don't see the connection

    furthermore the British neolithic farmers made some earthen walls (henges) in Stonehenge, but they didn't put the stones
    the stones were erected by the early Bell Beakers in the British Isles, 4.5 ka
    The connection is that the J2 people, who brought Iran Neo to the Minoans, were the minority ancestry. They replaced most of the y, but most of the ancestry remained the Neolithic ancestry.

    As for Stonehenge, I've seen you make this claim before, but it's by no means clear that's the case.

    "Radiocarbon dating suggests that the first bluestones were raised between 2400 and 2200 BC,[2] although they may have been at the site as early as 3000 BC.[3][4][5]"

    "A recent excavation has suggested that the Aubrey Holes may have originally been used to erect a bluestone circle.[26] If this were the case, it would advance the earliest known stone structure at the monument by some 500 years. A small outer bank beyond the ditch could also date to this period."

    "
    Archaeological excavation has indicated that around 2600 BC, the builders abandoned timber in favour of stone and dug two concentric arrays of holes (the Q and R Holes) in the centre of the site. These stone sockets are only partly known (hence on present evidence are sometimes described as forming 'crescents'); however, they could be the remains of a double ring. Again, there is little firm dating evidence for this phase. The holes held up to 80 standing stones (shown blue on the plan), only 43 of which can be traced today. It is generally accepted that the bluestones (some of which are made of dolerite, an igneous rock), were transported by the builders from the Preseli Hills, 150 miles (240 km) away in modern-day Pembrokeshire in Wales. Another theory is that they were brought much nearer to the site as glacial erratics by the Irish Sea Glacier[29] although there is no evidence of glacial deposition within southern central England.[30] A 2019 publication announced that evidence of Megalithic quarrying had been found at quarries in Wales identified as a source of Stonehenge's bluestone, indicating that the bluestone was quarried by human agency and not transported by glacial action.[31]"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

    I doubt the newcomers were involved until at least Stonehenge 3 1, and probably not until Stonehenge 3 II, when there seems to be an indication that pillars were re-erected.



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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The connection is that the J2 people, who brought Iran Neo to the Minoans, were the minority ancestry. They replaced most of the y, but most of the ancestry remained the Neolithic ancestry.
    As for Stonehenge, I've seen you make this claim before, but it's by no means clear that's the case.
    "Radiocarbon dating suggests that the first bluestones were raised between 2400 and 2200 BC,[2] although they may have been at the site as early as 3000 BC.[3][4][5]"

    "A recent excavation has suggested that the Aubrey Holes may have originally been used to erect a bluestone circle.[26] If this were the case, it would advance the earliest known stone structure at the monument by some 500 years. A small outer bank beyond the ditch could also date to this period."
    "
    Archaeological excavation has indicated that around 2600 BC, the builders abandoned timber in favour of stone and dug two concentric arrays of holes (the Q and R Holes) in the centre of the site. These stone sockets are only partly known (hence on present evidence are sometimes described as forming 'crescents'); however, they could be the remains of a double ring. Again, there is little firm dating evidence for this phase. The holes held up to 80 standing stones (shown blue on the plan), only 43 of which can be traced today. It is generally accepted that the bluestones (some of which are made of dolerite, an igneous rock), were transported by the builders from the Preseli Hills, 150 miles (240 km) away in modern-day Pembrokeshire in Wales. Another theory is that they were brought much nearer to the site as glacial erratics by the Irish Sea Glacier[29] although there is no evidence of glacial deposition within southern central England.[30] A 2019 publication announced that evidence of Megalithic quarrying had been found at quarries in Wales identified as a source of Stonehenge's bluestone, indicating that the bluestone was quarried by human agency and not transported by glacial action.[31]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge
    I doubt the newcomers were involved until at least Stonehenge 3 1, and probably not until Stonehenge 3 II, when there seems to be an indication that pillars were re-erected.
    even if the neolithic farmers erected some bluestones before, the final layout of the bluestones was made by the early British Bell Beakers
    Stonehenge remained in use after the arrival of Bell Beaker people and Bell Beaker people were even burried there

    Professor Geoffrey Wainwright, president of the Society of Antiquaries of London, and Timothy Darvill, of Bournemouth University, have suggested that Stonehenge was a place of healing—the primeval equivalent of Lourdes.[42] They argue that this accounts for the high number of burials in the area and for the evidence of trauma deformity in some of the graves. However, they do concede that the site was probably multifunctional and used for ancestor worship as well.[43] Isotope analysis indicates that some of the buried individuals were from other regions. A teenage boy buried approximately 1550 BC was raised near the Mediterranean Sea; a metal worker from 2300 BC dubbed the "Amesbury Archer" grew up near the alpine foothills of Germany; and the "Boscombe Bowmen" probably arrived from Wales or Brittany, France.[44]

    so, I don't see a connection with a disk in Minoan Pailaikastro
    what kind of disk is this? is there some link to more info?

    as for the Minoans they were J2, not the original G2a, and they had 75 % EEF, probably because they took farmers wives, allthoug it is not clear whether this happened in Anatolia or in the Aegean
    they arrived in the Helladic period (the same period Troy was founded) and brought bronze technology with them
    before their arrival the farmers could hardly survive on the Aegean Islands, they were very few
    these people brought a whole new way of life to the Aegean resulting in a big population growth and substantial longer life expectancy

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Aegean farmers are the Carded Ware people, who were in Corfu 8.4 ka and landed in eastern Iberia 7.6 ka, mainly G2a
    farmers arrived in tbe British Isles ca 6.1 ka, they were I2a with EEF

    Minoans arrived in the Aegean 5.2 ka, and they were J2
    I don't see the connection

    furthermore the British neolithic farmers made some earthen walls (henges) in Stonehenge, but they didn't put the stones
    the stones were erected by the early Bell Beakers in the British Isles, 4.5 ka
    The BlueStones were put around 2000
    so the myth of Stonehead of unknown origin
    dating tenths thousands is over

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    even if the neolithic farmers erected some bluestones before, the final layout of the bluestones was made by the early British Bell Beakers
    Stonehenge remained in use after the arrival of Bell Beaker people and Bell Beaker people were even burried there

    Professor Geoffrey Wainwright, president of the Society of Antiquaries of London, and Timothy Darvill, of Bournemouth University, have suggested that Stonehenge was a place of healing—the primeval equivalent of Lourdes.[42] They argue that this accounts for the high number of burials in the area and for the evidence of trauma deformity in some of the graves. However, they do concede that the site was probably multifunctional and used for ancestor worship as well.[43] Isotope analysis indicates that some of the buried individuals were from other regions. A teenage boy buried approximately 1550 BC was raised near the Mediterranean Sea; a metal worker from 2300 BC dubbed the "Amesbury Archer" grew up near the alpine foothills of Germany; and the "Boscombe Bowmen" probably arrived from Wales or Brittany, France.[44]

    so, I don't see a connection with a disk in Minoan Pailaikastro
    what kind of disk is this? is there some link to more info?

    as for the Minoans they were J2, not the original G2a, and they had 75 % EEF, probably because they took farmers wives, allthoug it is not clear whether this happened in Anatolia or in the Aegean
    they arrived in the Helladic period (the same period Troy was founded) and brought bronze technology with them
    before their arrival the farmers could hardly survive on the Aegean Islands, they were very few
    these people brought a whole new way of life to the Aegean resulting in a big population growth and substantial longer life expectancy
    Is this enough?




    The Palaikastro Disk is the Early Creatan Diary Calendar
    It is and evolution and based to a Summerian

    The Disk and Stonehedge are just the same,
    with just a difference in a hole or a mark in an inner circle,

    The BlueStones are about 2400 to 1900 BC
    1900 BC is also the Palaikastro Disk




    That is the Palaikastro Disk


    Now read this
    ... The circular temple he mentions has been identified with the famous Stonehenge by some researchers (Squire, 2003; Brodgman, 2005, pp. 163-173; Tsikritsis, et al., 2013). According to the ancient lore, Hercules, Theseus and even Perseus visited the place (Rendel Harris, 1925). ...


    From here
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig4_258804596



    The Palaikstro Disk and Stonehedge are almost the same
    Both around 2500 BC to 1800 BC Era of the BlueStones.

    Notice the Disk
    and now Notice the Stonehadge from Above with the calculations.




    A 3D reconstruction of a stonehdge





    If you want the Calculations of Tsikritzis
    I Have them in Greek,
    the difference is a mistake almost not to be considered,
    for example 365 days + 6 Hours or 365 days + 6 hours +3 min

    The aboves are fact
    what is Fogy-not certified is the mention that a searcher indetifies the syllabes Sto-na in Linear A,
    if that is true then we might start thinking that early Creatans language is not as we consider it.

    we wanted or Not,
    Bluestone and Palaikastro Disk is the same

    not by me
    The bluestones at Stonehenge were placed there during the third phase of construction at Stonehenge around 2300 BC



    BTW
    lately a lot of search is done about the Axes


    They seem to a part mechanism, a tool to read the Disk and more,
    It was a kind of a calculator, and not a war axe, neither a wood cut axe, neither a God's Symbol,



    @Bicicleur

    I hope this link can help you,
    Most i found are in Greek
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_258804596
    https://www.academia.edu/35464665/The_Minoan_Eclipse_Calculator_and_the_Minoan_Cosmo logy_Model


    BTW
    The Cycladic Aegean Civilization of Grotta is older than 3200 BC




    Last edited by Yetos; 21-04-19 at 02:16.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    even if the neolithic farmers erected some bluestones before, the final layout of the bluestones was made by the early British Bell Beakers
    Stonehenge remained in use after the arrival of Bell Beaker people and Bell Beaker people were even burried there

    Professor Geoffrey Wainwright, president of the Society of Antiquaries of London, and Timothy Darvill, of Bournemouth University, have suggested that Stonehenge was a place of healing—the primeval equivalent of Lourdes.[42] They argue that this accounts for the high number of burials in the area and for the evidence of trauma deformity in some of the graves. However, they do concede that the site was probably multifunctional and used for ancestor worship as well.[43] Isotope analysis indicates that some of the buried individuals were from other regions. A teenage boy buried approximately 1550 BC was raised near the Mediterranean Sea; a metal worker from 2300 BC dubbed the "Amesbury Archer" grew up near the alpine foothills of Germany; and the "Boscombe Bowmen" probably arrived from Wales or Brittany, France.[44]

    so, I don't see a connection with a disk in Minoan Pailaikastro
    what kind of disk is this? is there some link to more info?

    as for the Minoans they were J2, not the original G2a, and they had 75 % EEF, probably because they took farmers wives, allthoug it is not clear whether this happened in Anatolia or in the Aegean
    they arrived in the Helladic period (the same period Troy was founded) and brought bronze technology with them
    before their arrival the farmers could hardly survive on the Aegean Islands, they were very few
    these people brought a whole new way of life to the Aegean resulting in a big population growth and substantial longer life expectancy
    So what? It was their idea, their design, their knowledge which aligned it with the stars, their people buried under the posts making it holy. The "Beaker" people just continued it, after probably first tearing it down.

    I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. Why try to make it a Beaker or Celtic "thing" when it wasn't? This is as old as Gobekli Tepe. It has nothing to do with Beaker people. This is a reconstruction of the stone circles at Gobekli Tepe.



    As for the Minoan Pailaikastro read Yetos' post.

    Nor do I concur that the Anatolian farmers on Crete were some sort of primitive group, low in numbers, who contributed nothing to Cretan civilization, which seems to be what you're implying. Should they have been grateful to be invaded and have their men wiped out because they brought bronze? Should the people of the British Neolithic have felt the same way?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Bicycleur

    The Epipalaiolithic places in Aegean is mainly the Sesklo Dimini
    They were G2 and probably I have them as ancestry,
    The Kleitos G2 as indicator Does not exclude your G2 certain origin of Neolithic Britain settlers,
    but this G2 is also in Hungary, around same time,

    Now the other far old Aegean Civilization,
    which we consider it far old is the Glotta-Pelos Cycladic
    they were Neolithic, but they were great seafaring,
    the found them in Varna necropolis and far more
    The Grotta Pelos is about 3300 BC
    and is called Cycladic civilization,

    Cycladic and Minoan had a strange co-existance, as we see at Thera Island
    Now as for poverty, merchant malls never get starved,
    in fact we see many multi-candella pot, which means the had enough oil or fat to light their nights, since wood might be rare and precious at Aegean islands.

    Maybe Minoans were J2,
    but Sesklo-Dimini and Kleitos was G2 (as in Hungary?)
    and we do not know about Cycladic people, any suggestion?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotta-Pelos_culture


    Cycladic could also called as children of the obsidian sea-merchants.
    habitation marks are about 8000 BC
    at very early they went to islands to mine, then they left to merchandise it,
    before 4000 BC they settle permanent where water existed,
    at 3300 BC they have their own culture,
    Last edited by Yetos; 21-04-19 at 11:59.

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    Yaay another point for team G2a! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So what? It was their idea, their design, their knowledge which aligned it with the stars, their people buried under the posts making it holy. The "Beaker" people just continued it, after probably first tearing it down.

    I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. Why try to make it a Beaker or Celtic "thing" when it wasn't? This is as old as Gobekli Tepe. It has nothing to do with Beaker people. This is a reconstruction of the stone circles at Gobekli Tepe.



    As for the Minoan Pailaikastro read Yetos' post.

    Nor do I concur that the Anatolian farmers on Crete were some sort of primitive group, low in numbers, who contributed nothing to Cretan civilization, which seems to be what you're implying. Should they have been grateful to be invaded and have their men wiped out because they brought bronze? Should the people of the British Neolithic have felt the same way?
    Gobekli Tepe has been excavated partially, but afaik the alignments to the stars and winter or summer solstice are not confirmed.
    Nor that they were farmers as was asumed from the start, but now it doesn't look like it.
    Many similar constructions were erected in the area at that period with T shaped pilars.

    Megalithic graves were indeed algined to winter or summer solstice, and that was befor BB people arrived.
    No indication of destructions when BB people arrived, on the contrary for Stonehenge.

    And check the Aegean neolithic before the Heladic period.
    These farmers on the islands barely survived.
    It was a big contrast to the Heladic period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    even if the neolithic farmers erected some bluestones before, the final layout of the bluestones was made by the early British Bell Beakers
    Stonehenge remained in use after the arrival of Bell Beaker people and Bell Beaker people were even burried there

    Professor Geoffrey Wainwright, president of the Society of Antiquaries of London, and Timothy Darvill, of Bournemouth University, have suggested that Stonehenge was a place of healing—the primeval equivalent of Lourdes.[42] They argue that this accounts for the high number of burials in the area and for the evidence of trauma deformity in some of the graves. However, they do concede that the site was probably multifunctional and used for ancestor worship as well.[43] Isotope analysis indicates that some of the buried individuals were from other regions. A teenage boy buried approximately 1550 BC was raised near the Mediterranean Sea; a metal worker from 2300 BC dubbed the "Amesbury Archer" grew up near the alpine foothills of Germany; and the "Boscombe Bowmen" probably arrived from Wales or Brittany, France.[44]

    so, I don't see a connection with a disk in Minoan Pailaikastro
    what kind of disk is this? is there some link to more info?

    as for the Minoans they were J2, not the original G2a, and they had 75 % EEF, probably because they took farmers wives, allthoug it is not clear whether this happened in Anatolia or in the Aegean
    they arrived in the Helladic period (the same period Troy was founded) and brought bronze technology with them
    before their arrival the farmers could hardly survive on the Aegean Islands, they were very few
    these people brought a whole new way of life to the Aegean resulting in a big population growth and substantial longer life expectancy


    About Knossos: In the Early Neolithic, 6,000–5,000 BC, a village of 200–600 persons occupied most of the area of the palace and the slopes to the north and west. They lived in one- or two-room square houses of mud-brick walls set on socles of stone, either field stone or recycled stone artifacts. The inner walls were lined with mud-plaster. The roofs were flat, composed of mud over branches. The residents dug hearths at various locations in the center of the main room. This village had an unusual feature: one house under the West Court contained eight rooms and covered 50 m2 (540 sq ft). The walls were at right angles. The door was centered. Large stones were used for support under points of greater stress. The fact that distinct sleeping cubicles for individuals was not the custom suggests storage units of some sort.
    The settlement of the Middle Neolithic, 5,000–4,000 BC, housed 500–1000 people in more substantial and presumably more family-private homes. Construction was the same, except the windows and doors were timbered, a fixed, raised hearth occupied the center of the main room, and pilasters and other raised features (cabinets, beds) occupied the perimeter. Under the palace was the Great House, a 100 m2 (1,100 sq ft) area stone house divided into five rooms with meter-thick walls suggesting a second story was present. The presence of the house, which is unlikely to have been a private residence like the others, suggests a communal or public use; i.e., it may have been the predecessor of a palace. In the Late or Final Neolithic (two different but overlapping classification systems), 4,000–3,000 BC, the population increased dramatically.



    So you're wrong, they didn't have any problem living in the Aegean and already built large settlements with complex features and already had a very well established trading network, just like the Western Neolithic Mediterraneans had as proven among many things by the distrubution of obsidian artifacts and other materials that were traded over for thousands of miles. There's no evidence migrations from the East brought civilization to Crete all of a sudden as if some superior civilization invaded Crete importing civilization, it seems like a gradual process that was accelerated thanks to the trade going on between Crete, Egypt and the Levant.
    The reason why the Minoan civilization flourished is the location of Crete, placed between East and West, and one or two days away from Ancient Egypt by ship. The Aegean sea facilitates the development of nautical technology because of its morphology which makes sea travel a necessity for its inhabitants.
    The acculturation phenomenon you postuled for the Minoans might apply to the Greek colonization of Italy for example, where colonists founded several planned cities in a short period of time, bringing a completely different way of life. What happened to Crete and the Aegean was constant gene flow from the East due to the location of the Aegean which faces Anatolia to the East.


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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Only some scholars believe that the construction at Gobekli Tepi.

    " If indeed the site was built by hunter-gatherers as some researchers believe then it would mean that the ability to erect monumental complexes was within the capacities of these sorts of groups, which would overturn previous assumptions. Some researchers believe that the construction of Göbekli Tepe may have contributed to the later development of urban civilization, or, as excavator Klaus Schmidt put it, "First came the temple, then the city.""

    Regardless, the people who built it were essentially the same people genetically as the Neolithic farmers who succeeded them in the same area, and the traditions were passed on through the centuries. We see echoes in the Megalithic tombs the farmers built in Europe, and eventually at Stonehedge. This is all indisputable.

    We may not have proof positive that it was the newcomers who tore down the pillars at Stonehedge, but we can be absolutely certain that it was they who destroyed the way of life and culture which had given birth to it and sustained it. The pillars were indeed down.

    I don't deny they eventually adapted it as a sacred place. However, Stonehenge did not stem from "Beaker" culture. As I said above, the "idea", the ritual significance, the design, the bluestone pillars, the alignment with the stars, is something that was done by the Neolithic farmers of Britain.

    Sorry, but the Beakers were johnny come latelies, and whatever culture they had they borrowed from farming communities, as is true of all the steppe groups. Well, other than the horse and perhaps wheeled carts, although the last is not even sure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    About Knossos: In the Early Neolithic, 6,000–5,000 BC, a village of 200–600 persons occupied most of the area of the palace and the slopes to the north and west. They lived in one- or two-room square houses of mud-brick walls set on socles of stone, either field stone or recycled stone artifacts. The inner walls were lined with mud-plaster. The roofs were flat, composed of mud over branches. The residents dug hearths at various locations in the center of the main room. This village had an unusual feature: one house under the West Court contained eight rooms and covered 50 m2 (540 sq ft). The walls were at right angles. The door was centered. Large stones were used for support under points of greater stress. The fact that distinct sleeping cubicles for individuals was not the custom suggests storage units of some sort.
    The settlement of the Middle Neolithic, 5,000–4,000 BC, housed 500–1000 people in more substantial and presumably more family-private homes. Construction was the same, except the windows and doors were timbered, a fixed, raised hearth occupied the center of the main room, and pilasters and other raised features (cabinets, beds) occupied the perimeter. Under the palace was the Great House, a 100 m2 (1,100 sq ft) area stone house divided into five rooms with meter-thick walls suggesting a second story was present. The presence of the house, which is unlikely to have been a private residence like the others, suggests a communal or public use; i.e., it may have been the predecessor of a palace. In the Late or Final Neolithic (two different but overlapping classification systems), 4,000–3,000 BC, the population increased dramatically.



    So you're wrong, they didn't have any problem living in the Aegean and already built large settlements with complex features and already had a very well established trading network, just like the Western Neolithic Mediterraneans had as proven among many things by the distrubution of obsidian artifacts and other materials that were traded over for thousands of miles. There's no evidence migrations from the East brought civilization to Crete all of a sudden as if some superior civilization invaded Crete importing civilization, it seems like a gradual process that was accelerated thanks to the trade going on between Crete, Egypt and the Levant.
    The reason why the Minoan civilization flourished is the location of Crete, placed between East and West, and one or two days away from Ancient Egypt by ship. The Aegean sea facilitates the development of nautical technology because of its morphology which makes sea travel a necessity for its inhabitants.
    The acculturation phenomenon you postuled for the Minoans might apply to the Greek colonization of Italy for example, where colonists founded several planned cities in a short period of time, bringing a completely different way of life. What happened to Crete and the Aegean was constant gene flow from the East due to the location of the Aegean which faces Anatolia to the East.

    the Heladic period began in the Cycladic islands, where farmers barely survived before people from Anatolia arrived
    that was ca 5.2 ka
    those new people initiated a trading network in the Aegean

    the same in the Troas area, it was practically uninhabited when new people arrived and founded Kumtepe
    Kumtepe preceded Troy

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Only some scholars believe that the construction at Gobekli Tepi.
    " If indeed the site was built by hunter-gatherers as some researchers believe then it would mean that the ability to erect monumental complexes was within the capacities of these sorts of groups, which would overturn previous assumptions. Some researchers believe that the construction of Göbekli Tepe may have contributed to the later development of urban civilization, or, as excavator Klaus Schmidt put it, "First came the temple, then the city.""
    Regardless, the people who built it were essentially the same people genetically as the Neolithic farmers who succeeded them in the same area, and the traditions were passed on through the centuries. We see echoes in the Megalithic tombs the farmers built in Europe, and eventually at Stonehedge. This is all indisputable.
    We may not have proof positive that it was the newcomers who tore down the pillars at Stonehedge, but we can be absolutely certain that it was they who destroyed the way of life and culture which had given birth to it and sustained it. The pillars were indeed down.
    I don't deny they eventually adapted it as a sacred place. However, Stonehenge did not stem from "Beaker" culture. As I said above, the "idea", the ritual significance, the design, the bluestone pillars, the alignment with the stars, is something that was done by the Neolithic farmers of Britain.
    Sorry, but the Beakers were johnny come latelies, and whatever culture they had they borrowed from farming communities, as is true of all the steppe groups. Well, other than the horse and perhaps wheeled carts, although the last is not even sure.
    Gobkli Tepe was built 80 km east of the Upper Euphrates and in an area where wild einkorn was found.
    Immeadiately this was seen as proof of being built by early farmers.
    But this speculation is not confirmed by any proof to confirm this.
    It seems that some people think only the early farmers were capable of such things.
    What a prejudice!

    As for Stonehenge, it was a sacred site for the neolithic farmers, of course, I told this all along.
    But it was not destroyed by BB people, on the contrary, they extended and maintained the site for millenia.
    As a matter of facts, the remnants that are still visible today are built by BB people.

    And I still don't see any connection between the constructions of megalithic West-European farmers and Gobekli Tepe or Minoan constructions.
    They didnt build any megaliths between Anotolia and the Atlantic before megalithic constructions emerged.
    The first megalithic constructions were built in areas that were neither carded ware, nor LBK, there were no traces of agriculture.
    The Y-DNA points in the direction of HG mixing with farmers daughters.
    The Anatolian farmers came to Europe without oxens or ploughs.
    I wouldn't be surprised if these were invented by the European megalithic farmers.
    I wonder how else they could have made these constructions.
    Of course this is all speculation, I admit that.
    Appearantly Gobekli Tepe could be erected without oxens.
    Your guess is as good as mine.
    I wish you were less demeaning about BB folks and less certain of all the acomplishments made by the 8.5 ka Anatolian farmers.
    They were also a product of their time and place, and they were also HG who learned about farming and herding and dairy production from others before their lands became less fertile and lush.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the Heladic period began in the Cycladic islands, where farmers barely survived before people from Anatolia arrived
    that was ca 5.2 ka
    those new people initiated a trading network in the Aegean

    the same in the Troas area, it was practically uninhabited when new people arrived and founded Kumtepe
    Kumtepe preceded Troy
    There was already a trade network in the Aegean, nearly all the obsidian the Neolithic farmers in the Aegean used came from one spot: the island of Melos.



    And there were already substantial settlements, such as Knossos which housed more than 1000 people in the fifth millennium BC and which was made up of large enough houses and even a small palace like structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    There was already a trade network in the Aegean, nearly all the obsidian the Neolithic farmers in the Aegean used came from one spot: the island of Melos.

    And there were already substantial settlements, such as Knossos which housed more than 1000 people in the fifth millennium BC and which was made up of large enough houses and even a small palace like structure.
    yes, HG already came to collect obsidian from Melos since 15 ka
    but since when was Melos permanently settled?
    neither HG nor early farmers could survive and make a decent living on these small islands in the Aegean
    the Heladic newcomers did and florished

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The Anatolian farmers came to Europe without oxens or ploughs.
    I wouldn't be surprised if these were invented by the European megalithic farmers.
    Oxen were already used by Neolithic farmers in Europe, including the Mediterranean islands, since the sixth millennium bc, and we know that their genome originated in the Near East.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    BB people used to have sacred henges directed to solstices or Syrius, but the other henges aren't so spectacular as the British. This one is linked to Pyrenean local type of BB pots:

    by the way if languages that could be linked to BB aren't IE, their religious practices don't remind me anything IE.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    BB people used to have sacred henges directed to solstices or Syrius, but the other henges aren't so spectacular as the British. This one is linked to Pyrenean local type of BB pots.

    by the way if languages that could be linked to BB aren't IE, their religious practices don't remind me anything IE.
    Was it ever confirmed that the henges have anything to do with solstices? I read that similar cultic structures already existed in Lepenski Vir.

    Agreed that this doesn't resemble Indo-European religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, HG already came to collect obsidian from Melos since 15 ka
    but since when was Melos permanently settled?
    neither HG nor early farmers could survive and make a decent living on these small islands in the Aegean
    the Heladic newcomers did and florished
    the Cyclades marks of habitation is about 9000 BC but no mark of Dwelling
    the Cyclades Osidian partially dwelling is about 6-5000 BC
    they went, they gather, they leave to merchandise,
    After 5000 BC we have permanent dwelling,
    in aslands with fresh water,
    The Cycladic civilization is the first in Europe organised fully urban
    before Minoan,
    what I did not found is their Genes,
    But I am certain they were closer to Sesklo,

    As for feeding and hunger?
    I doupt,
    They maybe get thirsty, but not food,
    onlυ το eat urchins, is enough,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pygmalion View Post
    Oxen were already used by Neolithic farmers in Europe, including the Mediterranean islands, since the sixth millennium bc, and we know that their genome originated in the Near East.
    could you be more specific about the when and where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the Cyclades marks of habitation is about 9000 BC but no mark of Dwelling
    the Cyclades Osidian partially dwelling is about 6-5000 BC
    they went, they gather, they leave to merchandise,
    After 5000 BC we have permanent dwelling,
    in aslands with fresh water,
    The Cycladic civilization is the first in Europe organised fully urban
    before Minoan,
    what I did not found is their Genes,
    But I am certain they were closer to Sesklo,
    As for feeding and hunger?
    I doupt,
    They maybe get thirsty, but not food,
    onlυ το eat urchins, is enough,
    first permanent settlements in the Cyclades were 5th mill. BC, that is correct
    but population and life expectancy started to grow during Heladic period
    later, when larger ships were built, Crete came in to dominate the trade in the Aegean

    when do you think J2 arrived in the Aegean?
    and the Sesklo people were they G2a?

    the majority of Minoans and Myceneans seem to have been J2, as were the bronze age Levantines

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    ok

    I am posting 2 videos I found in yiutube

    Bicicleur it is obvious, same results from so many searchers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k9Piwbg6Q4



    What Tsikritzis found with comparison with Palaikastro Disk
    That Stonedge could also predict the Eclipse of moon, either part, either full,

    So the theory that Stonehedge were build upon a mathematical system that could measure the Sun and moon seasons months and year is obvious,
    but today we know that could also predict eclipse of moon etc
    and the same Geometrical Mathematical model used also in Aegean, in a flat disk,


    @berun

    I also see 2 circles in your photo,
    could one measure the moon, and the other the sun?
    has anybody search it?


    I Think measuring the stonehedge behavour, in a computer 3d model,
    we found their abillities,

    BTW
    Notice in one of the video,
    that a stone was scratch by humans to give correct results through time,
    THEY SCRATCH A HUGE ROCK, to have accuracy on Equinox.

    I do not think is a coinsidence, so stohedges to have such abilities in a so early 'counting' society
    rather they build them such.

    They could measure both and Solar and Moon year and months
    and predict eclipses for a period of time.

    and not only,
    did you watch the water channels and deposit outside?
    could that be a good irrigation system?
    which gather the water, and spread it, according the era?

    If that is so
    Then it is obvious that they were by Farmers, who knew irrigation !!!!

    IF STONEHDGE WERE HEALING PLACES
    THEN WHY THERE IS WATER DEPOSITS AND CHANNELS OUTSIDE?




    IT IS SIMPLE.

    STONEHEDGES COULD ONLY MEASURE SUN AND MOON, COULD NOT PREDICT ECLIPSES
    BUT THEY WERE ALSO A COMPUTING SYSTEM FOR IRRIGATION.
    THEY WHEN TO GATHER THE WATER FROM FIELDS, AND WHEN TO LEAD WATER TO FIELDS




    IRRIGATION SYSTEMS COULD NOT BE BUILD BY HUNTERS GATHERERES,
    ONLY BY SPECIALIZED FARMING SOICIETIES



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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Was it ever confirmed that the henges have anything to do with solstices? I read that similar cultic structures already existed in Lepenski Vir.

    Agreed that this doesn't resemble Indo-European religion.
    the spectacular passage grave of Newgrange, Ireland seems to be oriented to solstices
    but first henges and megaliths seem to have been simply landmarks

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