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Thread: Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain

  1. #26
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Notice the bellow



    The stona is connected with irrigation water channels, which pass infront, and around it,
    I think stona work as a programed computing system to irrigate the land is obvious, the stona is the algorythm when to open and when to close water.
    they dry the land for the era they want, and they flourish water the era they want,
    and they knew when to do it, by measuring the sun and moon callendar using the hedge circles,

    No am not an archaiologist,
    I simply have a diploma in architecture and civil enginnering, and a master in Hydraulics and enviroment techiques,
    for me it is ovious that they knew open flux irrigation system, milleniums before Bernouli publish his equations and Dubois measure the loses


    what I can not understand is why they use 3 channels
    while in the Palaikastro disk
    they have 4

    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    could you be more specific about the when and where?


    In many regions, in Italy for example oxen were present since the Early Neolithic:

    South and Central Italy: Oxen are attested in numerous sites since the time of the Impressed ware culture, so since the Seventh-Sixth Millennium bc

    Ripa Bianca (Ancona): "...Among the other tools, all chipped from local flint, are abrupt retouch truncations, straight awls, retouched blades and a few geometrics among which are some trapezes obtained with the microburin technique. Sickle blades with oblique “sickle gloss” are also recorded. Among the other stone materials are obsidian bladelets, greenstone axes and adzes, lower and upper querns. Particularly abundant is the bone industry that includes long points, perforators, spatulae (sometimes obtained from red deer antler), one handle and one “knife” obtained from cattle/deer rib. Three radiocarbon dates have been obtained from charcoal. They are: 6265±85 BP (R-599), 6210±75 BP (R-598A), and 6140±70 BP (R-598) (ALESSIO et al., 1970: 602). This indicates that the site flourished during the last two-three centuries of the seventh millennium BP. he meat diet of the inhabitants was basically supplied by caprines that represent the 64% of the bones. Pig was far less important and cattle represented only 6% of the total assemblage. Hunting activities seem to be quite irrelevant, indicated by a very small amount of deer bones. Of interest is the recovery of a few charred, wild apple"

    "The best data come from the Apulian and central Italian Adriatic sites. In examining the faunal remains from seven Impressed Ware sites of Apulia, BÖKÖNYI (1991: 32) points out the predominance of domestic species - mainly sheep and goats, followed by cattle and pig. A rather different situation is known from the Marche in eastcentral Italy. The bone remains come from the two settlements of Maddalena di Muccia and Ripabianca di Monterado, which show quite a different location and chronology. The fauna from Maddalena di Muccia an open-air site located in the hilly countryside of the interior, is composed of pig (50%), red deer (25%), caprines (15%) and cattle (8%)"

    Rendina Di Melfi (Basilicata), since the sixth millennium bc: "The archaeozoological analysis of the large faunal assemblage collected in the Early Neolithic site of Rendina di Melfi (6th -mid 5th mill. BC) has been supported by the DNA analysis of sheep (Ovis aries) and cattle (Bos taurus/primigenius) "



    Liguria: Arende Candide (4900-4700 bc)


    Sardinia: Oxen are attested in numerous sites such as Filiestru cave or Su Coloru since the Early Neolithic and dated to the late sixth Millennium bc. By the Middle Neolithic, so by the first half of the fifth millennium bc, bull bones are predominant over sheep bones in some sites, such as Su Coluru where cattle bones amount to the 53%: "...While sheep and pigs have a similar percentage in two phases with a numerical predominance of the first compared to the latter, cattle, already represented in a good percentage in the Early Neolithic (20%), show a significant increase in the Middle Neolithicwhere the number of fragments (53%)"

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Was it ever confirmed that the henges have anything to do with solstices? I read that similar cultic structures already existed in Lepenski Vir.

    Agreed that this doesn't resemble Indo-European religion.
    Mas Baleta is arranged as the first new year light will beat the central menhir (21 or 22 december as for BB).
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    I think the sole mistake to take about Stonehenge between the Neolithic / Bell Beaker transition, is that ; the newcomers didn't know the purpose or what Stonehenge was about. Sort of Barbarians who would destroyed the previous structure without reasoning, but history proves us that a lot of newcomers in a certain area could embrace local new ideas. Such as Germans becoming Christians, or Turks and Mongols becoming Muslims or Buddhists.

    Problably that Bell Beakers learned from locals in the early BB period what it was about, and perpetuated it for ever, at least until Christianity. Even Roman-era Celts could still perpetuate this without us knowing it apart of clear archeological proofs.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I would also be cautious to the ability of modern scientists to project modern knowledges into prehistoric or ancient artifacts. Those geometric calculus in the video posted by Yetos only reflect the researcher projection and not what ancient humans did or may did believe. Exactly the same things exists about Egyptians Pyramids, Nazca Symbols... That should be pretty obvious btw. Everything will be an harsh coincidence if you try hard enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I would also be cautious to the ability of modern scientists to project modern knowledges into prehistoric or ancient artifacts. Those geometric calculus in the video posted by Yetos only reflect the researcher projection and not what ancient humans did or may did believe. Exactly the same things exists about Egyptians Pyramids, Nazca Symbols... That should be pretty obvious btw. Everything will be an harsh coincidence if you try hard enough.
    Out of 36 randomly aligned buildings 1 will be at roughly the right angle to support the existence of solar cults

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    Wasn't this already clear by the overwhelming majority of R-M269 (67%) in Britain while the paleolithic lineage I occurred at a much lower frequency (approx. 23%)?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brutus View Post
    Wasn't this already clear by the overwhelming majority of R-M269 (67%) in Britain while the paleolithic lineage I occurred at a much lower frequency (approx. 23%)?
    That's not so simple because R1b is still a paleolithic european lineage too, we might even found mesolithic britain surprises one day. We obviously have deduced before 2018 that british Bell Beakers would turned out R1b, but in science there is no place for deduction i guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Out of 36 randomly aligned buildings 1 will be at roughly the right angle to support the existence of solar cults
    Yeah, i dont doubt Neolithic peoples were very in advance in some scientific realities.

    But that's like some modern scientific that makes universal links between ancient constructions and certain parrallels and latitudes... If you want your coincidence, you will found it. Gobleki Tepe, Stonehenge, Sintashta... Every prehistoric structured structure that scientific founds needs to have a special and monumental symbolic. But who really knows about those?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Yeah, i dont doubt Neolithic peoples were very in advance in some scientific realities.
    But that's like some modern scientific that makes universal links between ancient constructions and certain parrallels and latitudes... If you want your coincidence, you will found it. Gobleki Tepe, Stonehenge, Sintashta... Every prehistoric structured structure that scientific founds needs to have a special and monumental symbolic. But who really knows about those?
    indeed ..
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa
    Religious ties to ancient Egypt
    By the 6th millennium BCE, evidence of a prehistoric religion or cult appears, with a number of sacrificed cattle buried in stone-roofed chambers lined with clay.[2] It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult. For example, Hathor was worshipped as a nighttime protector in desert regions (see Serabit el-Khadim). To directly quote professors Wendorf and Schild:[2]
    ... there are many aspects of political and ceremonial life in prehistoric Egypt and the Old Kingdom that reflects a strong impact from Saharan cattle pastoralists ...
    Other subterranean complexes are also found in Nabta Playa, one of which included evidence of what Wendorf described as perhaps "the oldest known sculpture in Egypt.[2]
    Astronomical observation
    Nabta Playa "calendar circle", reconstructed at Aswan Nubia museum
    By the 5th millennium BCE these peoples had fashioned what may be among the world's earliest known archeoastronomical devices (roughly contemporary to the Goseck circle in Germany and the Mnajdra megalithic temple complex in Malta). These include alignments of stones that may have indicated the rising of certain stars and a "calendar circle" that indicates the approximate direction of summer solstice sunrise.[6] "Calendar circle" may be a misnomer as the spaces between the pairs of stones in the gates are a bit too wide, and the distances between the gates are too short for accurate calendar measurements."[4] An inventory of Egyptian archaeoastronomical sites for the UNESCO World Heritage Convention evaluated Nabta Playa as having "hypothetical solar and stellar alignments."[7]
    Claims for early alignments and star maps
    Astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests the hypothesis that the southerly line of three stones inside the Calendar Circle represented the three stars of Orion’s Belt and the other three stones inside the calendar circle represented the shoulders and head stars of Orion as they appeared in the sky. These correspondences were for two dates – circa 4800 BCE and at precessional opposition – representing how the sky "moves" long term. Brophy proposes that the circle was constructed and used circa the later date, and the dual date representation was a conceptual representation of the motion of the sky over a precession cycle.
    Near the Calendar Circle, which is made of smaller stones, there are alignments of large megalithic stones. The southerly lines of these megaliths, Brophy shows, aligned to the same stars as represented in the Calendar Circle, all at the same epoch, circa 6270 BCE. The Calendar Circle correlation with Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BCE and 4900 BCE, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.[3]
    Recent research
    A 2007 article by a team of University of Colorado archaeoastronomers and archaeologists (three members had been involved in the original discovery of the site and its astronomical alignment)[8] has responded to the work of Brophy and Rosen, in particular their claims for an alignment with Sirius in 6088 and other alignments which they dated to 6270, saying that these dates were about 1,500 years earlier than the estimated dates. The Sirius alignment in question was originally proposed by Wendorf and Malville,[4] for one of the most prominent alignments of megaliths labelled the "C-line", which they said aligned to the rising of Sirius circa 4820 BCE. Brophy and Rosen showed in 2005 that megalith orientations and star positions reported by Wendorf and Malville were in error, noting that "Given these corrected data, we see that Sirius actually aligned with the C-line circa 6000 BCE. We estimate that 6088 BCE Sirius had a declination of -36.51 degrees, for a rising azimuth exactly on the C-line average".[3] Malville acknowledged the corrections made by Brophy and Rosen, but concluded the C-line of megaliths "may not represent an original set of aligned stele; we refrain from interpreting that alignment."[9]
    They also criticised suggestions made by Brophy in his book The Origin Map that there was a representation of the Milky Way as it was in 17,500 BCE and maps of Orion at 16,500 BCE, saying "These extremely early dates as well as the proposition that the nomads had contact with extraterrestrial life are inconsistent with the archaeological record. Inference in archaeoastronomy must always be guided and informed by archaeology, especially when substantial field work has been performed in the region.[9]
    They propose that the area was first used as what they call a 'regional ceremonial centre' around 6100 BCE to 5600 BCE with people coming from various locations to gather on the dunes surrounding the playa where there is archaeological evidence for gatherings which involved large numbers of cattle bones, as cattle were normally only killed on important occasions. Around 5500 BCE a new, more organised group began to use the site, burying cattle in clay-lined chambers and building other tumuli. Around 4800 BCE a stone circle was constructed, with narrow slabs approximately aligned with the summer solstice, near the beginning of the rainy season.
    More complex structures followed during a megalith period the researchers dated to between about 4500 BCE to 3600 BCE. Using their original measurements and measurements by satellite and GPS measurements by Brophy and Rosen they confirmed possible alignments with Sirius, Arcturus, Alpha Centauri and the Belt of Orion. They suggest that there are three pieces of evidence suggesting astronomical observations by the herdsmen using the site, which may have functioned as a necropolis. "The repetitive orientation of megaliths, stele, human burials and cattle burials reveals a very early symbolic connection to the north." Secondly, there is the orientation of the cromlech mentioned above. The third piece of evidence is the fifth millennium alignments of stele to bright stars.[9]
    They conclude their report by writing that "The symbolism embedded in the archaeological record of Nabta Playa in the Fifth Millennium BCE is very basic, focussed on issues of major practical importance to the nomads: cattle, water, death, earth, sun and stars."[9]
    Attachment 10951


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    Geometry is more more simple than today maths, and algebra,

    Neolithic people make the easiest think, from a center they notice and place marks, in equal range,
    and then you have the circle, the most simple geometric design,

    Later at Magna Grecia Italy, at Syracuses Archimedes designed the rolling center circle,
    the Antikythera mechanism, which gives a shape simmilar to eclipse,

    much later the Arabs advance maths to Algebra,

    After the crusades all these went to West Europe, and they advance the high maths we know today,
    Including the Ellipse.

    then after 1940's we had the computers, and new maths of aproximety were designed. (finite element maths)

    but God always designs (areas and shapes, Goemetrise if can say such), Θεος αει γεωμετρει,

    and the question is why to count the time?
    what was the need?

    It is simple,
    time is money,
    and in case of stonehedge, means production of farming, irrigation.

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