Ancient genomes indicate population replacement in Early Neolithic Britain

yes, HG already came to collect obsidian from Melos since 15 ka
but since when was Melos permanently settled?
neither HG nor early farmers could survive and make a decent living on these small islands in the Aegean
the Heladic newcomers did and florished

the Cyclades marks of habitation is about 9000 BC but no mark of Dwelling
the Cyclades Osidian partially dwelling is about 6-5000 BC
they went, they gather, they leave to merchandise,
After 5000 BC we have permanent dwelling,
in aslands with fresh water,
The Cycladic civilization is the first in Europe organised fully urban
before Minoan,
what I did not found is their Genes,
But I am certain they were closer to Sesklo,

As for feeding and hunger?
I doupt,
They maybe get thirsty, but not food,
onlυ το eat urchins, is enough,
 
Oxen were already used by Neolithic farmers in Europe, including the Mediterranean islands, since the sixth millennium bc, and we know that their genome originated in the Near East.

could you be more specific about the when and where?
 
the Cyclades marks of habitation is about 9000 BC but no mark of Dwelling
the Cyclades Osidian partially dwelling is about 6-5000 BC
they went, they gather, they leave to merchandise,
After 5000 BC we have permanent dwelling,
in aslands with fresh water,
The Cycladic civilization is the first in Europe organised fully urban
before Minoan,
what I did not found is their Genes,
But I am certain they were closer to Sesklo,
As for feeding and hunger?
I doupt,
They maybe get thirsty, but not food,
onlυ το eat urchins, is enough,
first permanent settlements in the Cyclades were 5th mill. BC, that is correct
but population and life expectancy started to grow during Heladic period
later, when larger ships were built, Crete came in to dominate the trade in the Aegean

when do you think J2 arrived in the Aegean?
and the Sesklo people were they G2a?

the majority of Minoans and Myceneans seem to have been J2, as were the bronze age Levantines
 
ok

I am posting 2 videos I found in yiutube

Bicicleur it is obvious, same results from so many searchers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k9Piwbg6Q4


What Tsikritzis found with comparison with Palaikastro Disk
That Stonedge could also predict the Eclipse of moon, either part, either full,

So the theory that Stonehedge were build upon a mathematical system that could measure the Sun and moon seasons months and year is obvious,
but today we know that could also predict eclipse of moon etc
and the same Geometrical Mathematical model used also in Aegean, in a flat disk,


@berun

I also see 2 circles in your photo,
could one measure the moon, and the other the sun?
has anybody search it?


I Think measuring the stonehedge behavour, in a computer 3d model,
we found their abillities,

BTW
Notice in one of the video,
that a stone was scratch by humans to give correct results through time,
THEY SCRATCH A HUGE ROCK, to have accuracy on Equinox.

I do not think is a coinsidence, so stohedges to have such abilities in a so early 'counting' society
rather they build them such.

They could measure both and Solar and Moon year and months
and predict eclipses for a period of time.

and not only,
did you watch the water channels and deposit outside?
could that be a good irrigation system?
which gather the water, and spread it, according the era?

If that is so
Then it is obvious that they were by Farmers, who knew irrigation !!!!

IF STONEHDGE WERE HEALING PLACES
THEN WHY THERE IS WATER DEPOSITS AND CHANNELS OUTSIDE?

stonehenge-6_0.jpg



IT IS SIMPLE.

STONEHEDGES COULD ONLY MEASURE SUN AND MOON, COULD NOT PREDICT ECLIPSES
BUT THEY WERE ALSO A COMPUTING SYSTEM FOR IRRIGATION.
THEY WHEN TO GATHER THE WATER FROM FIELDS, AND WHEN TO LEAD WATER TO FIELDS

2000x1125-final-2pt-copyright-a303--highways-england-hero-2.jpg



IRRIGATION SYSTEMS COULD NOT BE BUILD BY HUNTERS GATHERERES,
ONLY BY SPECIALIZED FARMING SOICIETIES


 
Was it ever confirmed that the henges have anything to do with solstices? I read that similar cultic structures already existed in Lepenski Vir.

Agreed that this doesn't resemble Indo-European religion.

the spectacular passage grave of Newgrange, Ireland seems to be oriented to solstices
but first henges and megaliths seem to have been simply landmarks
 
Notice the bellow

stonehenge-avenue.jpg


The stona is connected with irrigation water channels, which pass infront, and around it,
I think stona work as a programed computing system to irrigate the land is obvious, the stona is the algorythm when to open and when to close water.
they dry the land for the era they want, and they flourish water the era they want,
and they knew when to do it, by measuring the sun and moon callendar using the hedge circles,

No am not an archaiologist,
I simply have a diploma in architecture and civil enginnering, and a master in Hydraulics and enviroment techiques,
for me it is ovious that they knew open flux irrigation system, milleniums before Bernouli publish his equations and Dubois measure the loses


what I can not understand is why they use 3 channels
while in the Palaikastro disk
they have 4

c-The-Palaikastro-plate-and-a-copy-of-it-as-it-was-photographed-at-the-Heraklion.png
 
could you be more specific about the when and where?



In many regions, in Italy for example oxen were present since the Early Neolithic:

South and Central Italy: Oxen are attested in numerous sites since the time of the Impressed ware culture, so since the Seventh-Sixth Millennium bc

Ripa Bianca (Ancona): "...Among the other tools, all chipped from local flint, are abrupt retouch truncations, straight awls, retouched blades and a few geometrics among which are some trapezes obtained with the microburin technique. Sickle blades with oblique “sickle gloss” are also recorded. Among the other stone materials are obsidian bladelets, greenstone axes and adzes, lower and upper querns. Particularly abundant is the bone industry that includes long points, perforators, spatulae (sometimes obtained from red deer antler), one handle and one “knife” obtained from cattle/deer rib. Three radiocarbon dates have been obtained from charcoal. They are: 6265±85 BP (R-599), 6210±75 BP (R-598A), and 6140±70 BP (R-598) (ALESSIO et al., 1970: 602). This indicates that the site flourished during the last two-three centuries of the seventh millennium BP. he meat diet of the inhabitants was basically supplied by caprines that represent the 64% of the bones. Pig was far less important and cattle represented only 6% of the total assemblage. Hunting activities seem to be quite irrelevant, indicated by a very small amount of deer bones. Of interest is the recovery of a few charred, wild apple"

"The best data come from the Apulian and central Italian Adriatic sites. In examining the faunal remains from seven Impressed Ware sites of Apulia, BÖKÖNYI (1991: 32) points out the predominance of domestic species - mainly sheep and goats, followed by cattle and pig. A rather different situation is known from the Marche in eastcentral Italy. The bone remains come from the two settlements of Maddalena di Muccia and Ripabianca di Monterado, which show quite a different location and chronology. The fauna from Maddalena di Muccia an open-air site located in the hilly countryside of the interior, is composed of pig (50%), red deer (25%), caprines (15%) and cattle (8%)"

Rendina Di Melfi (Basilicata), since the sixth millennium bc: "The archaeozoological analysis of the large faunal assemblage collected in the Early Neolithic site of Rendina di Melfi (6th -mid 5th mill. BC) has been supported by the DNA analysis of sheep (Ovis aries) and cattle (Bos taurus/primigenius) "



Liguria: Arende Candide (4900-4700 bc)


Sardinia: Oxen are attested in numerous sites such as Filiestru cave or Su Coloru since the Early Neolithic and dated to the late sixth Millennium bc. By the Middle Neolithic, so by the first half of the fifth millennium bc, bull bones are predominant over sheep bones in some sites, such as Su Coluru where cattle bones amount to the 53%: "...While sheep and pigs have a similar percentage in two phases with a numerical predominance of the first compared to the latter, cattle, already represented in a good percentage in the Early Neolithic (20%), show a significant increase in the Middle Neolithicwhere the number of fragments (53%)"
 
Was it ever confirmed that the henges have anything to do with solstices? I read that similar cultic structures already existed in Lepenski Vir.

Agreed that this doesn't resemble Indo-European religion.

Mas Baleta is arranged as the first new year light will beat the central menhir (21 or 22 december as for BB).
 
I think the sole mistake to take about Stonehenge between the Neolithic / Bell Beaker transition, is that ; the newcomers didn't know the purpose or what Stonehenge was about. Sort of Barbarians who would destroyed the previous structure without reasoning, but history proves us that a lot of newcomers in a certain area could embrace local new ideas. Such as Germans becoming Christians, or Turks and Mongols becoming Muslims or Buddhists.

Problably that Bell Beakers learned from locals in the early BB period what it was about, and perpetuated it for ever, at least until Christianity. Even Roman-era Celts could still perpetuate this without us knowing it apart of clear archeological proofs.
 
I would also be cautious to the ability of modern scientists to project modern knowledges into prehistoric or ancient artifacts. Those geometric calculus in the video posted by Yetos only reflect the researcher projection and not what ancient humans did or may did believe. Exactly the same things exists about Egyptians Pyramids, Nazca Symbols... That should be pretty obvious btw. Everything will be an harsh coincidence if you try hard enough.
 
I would also be cautious to the ability of modern scientists to project modern knowledges into prehistoric or ancient artifacts. Those geometric calculus in the video posted by Yetos only reflect the researcher projection and not what ancient humans did or may did believe. Exactly the same things exists about Egyptians Pyramids, Nazca Symbols... That should be pretty obvious btw. Everything will be an harsh coincidence if you try hard enough.

Out of 36 randomly aligned buildings 1 will be at roughly the right angle to support the existence of solar cults :grin:
 
Wasn't this already clear by the overwhelming majority of R-M269 (67%) in Britain while the paleolithic lineage I occurred at a much lower frequency (approx. 23%)?
 
Wasn't this already clear by the overwhelming majority of R-M269 (67%) in Britain while the paleolithic lineage I occurred at a much lower frequency (approx. 23%)?

That's not so simple because R1b is still a paleolithic european lineage too, we might even found mesolithic britain surprises one day. We obviously have deduced before 2018 that british Bell Beakers would turned out R1b, but in science there is no place for deduction i guess.
 
Out of 36 randomly aligned buildings 1 will be at roughly the right angle to support the existence of solar cults :grin:

Yeah, i dont doubt Neolithic peoples were very in advance in some scientific realities.

But that's like some modern scientific that makes universal links between ancient constructions and certain parrallels and latitudes... If you want your coincidence, you will found it. Gobleki Tepe, Stonehenge, Sintashta... Every prehistoric structured structure that scientific founds needs to have a special and monumental symbolic. But who really knows about those?
 
Yeah, i dont doubt Neolithic peoples were very in advance in some scientific realities.
But that's like some modern scientific that makes universal links between ancient constructions and certain parrallels and latitudes... If you want your coincidence, you will found it. Gobleki Tepe, Stonehenge, Sintashta... Every prehistoric structured structure that scientific founds needs to have a special and monumental symbolic. But who really knows about those?
indeed ..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa
Religious ties to ancient Egypt
By the 6th millennium BCE, evidence of a prehistoric religion or cult appears, with a number of sacrificed cattle buried in stone-roofed chambers lined with clay.[2] It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult. For example, Hathor was worshipped as a nighttime protector in desert regions (see Serabit el-Khadim). To directly quote professors Wendorf and Schild:[2]
... there are many aspects of political and ceremonial life in prehistoric Egypt and the Old Kingdom that reflects a strong impact from Saharan cattle pastoralists ...
Other subterranean complexes are also found in Nabta Playa, one of which included evidence of what Wendorf described as perhaps "the oldest known sculpture in Egypt.[2]
Astronomical observation
Nabta Playa "calendar circle", reconstructed at Aswan Nubia museum
By the 5th millennium BCE these peoples had fashioned what may be among the world's earliest known archeoastronomical devices (roughly contemporary to the Goseck circle in Germany and the Mnajdra megalithic temple complex in Malta). These include alignments of stones that may have indicated the rising of certain stars and a "calendar circle" that indicates the approximate direction of summer solstice sunrise.[6] "Calendar circle" may be a misnomer as the spaces between the pairs of stones in the gates are a bit too wide, and the distances between the gates are too short for accurate calendar measurements."[4] An inventory of Egyptian archaeoastronomical sites for the UNESCO World Heritage Convention evaluated Nabta Playa as having "hypothetical solar and stellar alignments."[7]
Claims for early alignments and star maps
Astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests the hypothesis that the southerly line of three stones inside the Calendar Circle represented the three stars of Orion’s Belt and the other three stones inside the calendar circle represented the shoulders and head stars of Orion as they appeared in the sky. These correspondences were for two dates – circa 4800 BCE and at precessional opposition – representing how the sky "moves" long term. Brophy proposes that the circle was constructed and used circa the later date, and the dual date representation was a conceptual representation of the motion of the sky over a precession cycle.
Near the Calendar Circle, which is made of smaller stones, there are alignments of large megalithic stones. The southerly lines of these megaliths, Brophy shows, aligned to the same stars as represented in the Calendar Circle, all at the same epoch, circa 6270 BCE. The Calendar Circle correlation with Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BCE and 4900 BCE, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.[3]
Recent research
A 2007 article by a team of University of Colorado archaeoastronomers and archaeologists (three members had been involved in the original discovery of the site and its astronomical alignment)[8] has responded to the work of Brophy and Rosen, in particular their claims for an alignment with Sirius in 6088 and other alignments which they dated to 6270, saying that these dates were about 1,500 years earlier than the estimated dates. The Sirius alignment in question was originally proposed by Wendorf and Malville,[4] for one of the most prominent alignments of megaliths labelled the "C-line", which they said aligned to the rising of Sirius circa 4820 BCE. Brophy and Rosen showed in 2005 that megalith orientations and star positions reported by Wendorf and Malville were in error, noting that "Given these corrected data, we see that Sirius actually aligned with the C-line circa 6000 BCE. We estimate that 6088 BCE Sirius had a declination of -36.51 degrees, for a rising azimuth exactly on the C-line average".[3] Malville acknowledged the corrections made by Brophy and Rosen, but concluded the C-line of megaliths "may not represent an original set of aligned stele; we refrain from interpreting that alignment."[9]
They also criticised suggestions made by Brophy in his book The Origin Map that there was a representation of the Milky Way as it was in 17,500 BCE and maps of Orion at 16,500 BCE, saying "These extremely early dates as well as the proposition that the nomads had contact with extraterrestrial life are inconsistent with the archaeological record. Inference in archaeoastronomy must always be guided and informed by archaeology, especially when substantial field work has been performed in the region.[9]
They propose that the area was first used as what they call a 'regional ceremonial centre' around 6100 BCE to 5600 BCE with people coming from various locations to gather on the dunes surrounding the playa where there is archaeological evidence for gatherings which involved large numbers of cattle bones, as cattle were normally only killed on important occasions. Around 5500 BCE a new, more organised group began to use the site, burying cattle in clay-lined chambers and building other tumuli. Around 4800 BCE a stone circle was constructed, with narrow slabs approximately aligned with the summer solstice, near the beginning of the rainy season.
More complex structures followed during a megalith period the researchers dated to between about 4500 BCE to 3600 BCE. Using their original measurements and measurements by satellite and GPS measurements by Brophy and Rosen they confirmed possible alignments with Sirius, Arcturus, Alpha Centauri and the Belt of Orion. They suggest that there are three pieces of evidence suggesting astronomical observations by the herdsmen using the site, which may have functioned as a necropolis. "The repetitive orientation of megaliths, stele, human burials and cattle burials reveals a very early symbolic connection to the north." Secondly, there is the orientation of the cromlech mentioned above. The third piece of evidence is the fifth millennium alignments of stele to bright stars.[9]
They conclude their report by writing that "The symbolism embedded in the archaeological record of Nabta Playa in the Fifth Millennium BCE is very basic, focussed on issues of major practical importance to the nomads: cattle, water, death, earth, sun and stars."[9]
View attachment 10951

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Geometry is more more simple than today maths, and algebra,

Neolithic people make the easiest think, from a center they notice and place marks, in equal range,
and then you have the circle, the most simple geometric design,

Later at Magna Grecia Italy, at Syracuses Archimedes designed the rolling center circle,
the Antikythera mechanism, which gives a shape simmilar to eclipse,

much later the Arabs advance maths to Algebra,

After the crusades all these went to West Europe, and they advance the high maths we know today,
Including the Ellipse.

then after 1940's we had the computers, and new maths of aproximety were designed. (finite element maths)

but God always designs (areas and shapes, Goemetrise if can say such), Θεος αει γεωμετρει,

and the question is why to count the time?
what was the need?

It is simple,
time is money,
and in case of stonehedge, means production of farming, irrigation.
 
Thank you for bringing it to our attention, Jose, but to say I'm not impressed by this archaeologist's reasoning is a vast understatement.

His "proof" for doubting there was a whole scale migration which "replaced" the prior Neolithic inhabitants is that a good deal of the "Neolithic" culture which preceded the Beakers was retained.

He doesn't seem to have delved deeply enough into the material to have read that it's unlikely that they just killed all the men outright in the very beginning. All you would need to do for the prior y lines to disappear is to kill some of the men and enslave the rest, removing or severely limiting their ability to reproduce. Then the women would be divided among the invaders. The fact that they brought some of their own women with them has never stopped this kind of behavior before.

It's the last gasp of archaeologists who spent the decades since the second world war denying invasion and replacement because they had seen the horrors of it and didn't want it to be true of the past/and or didn't want to make it seem "normal".

That such a minor piece was picked up by and referenced in the "Communist State of Portland" is not at all a surprise. They don't want to raise any alarms about the possible effects of mass migration when they are advocating that the U.S. throw open its borders.
 
Always the same :
supporters of « totalitarist » thesis : black or white.
- Were the first BB’s the same as the northern Rhinan BB’s come in the Isles ?
Not by force, but we can be sure that BB’s pots appeared in Britain along with new people, proved photypically and genetically -
- Is the « BB’s genetic signature » supposed to be still dominant in Britain the result of ONLY the first well identified BB’s incursions ?
I ‘m not sure : I suppose that other people with a rather close auDNA and Y haplo’s, the Celts of more than a wave, colonized (rather than « invaded ») the Isles at IA, even possibly before at BA - or in this very case, N-W IE speaking pops very close to later Celts - just with a bit more Western Neolithic auDNA, picked on their way to Britain and not by force a result of ancient Britain Neolithic people, spite I’m almost sure some pre-BB’s Britain Neolithic auDNA has been passed too. ATW the difference between all these Neolithic (+litlle WHG) inputs were tiny, making it difficult to distinguish acutely between them.
So, no complete disparition of ancient Britain Neolithic people (they were discarded for a lot of them and pushed in harsh lands, otherwise surely a lot of their females taken by BB’s males), and no reduction of today British people to a BB’s story without important other moves.
What I see is that bias is still common enough among scientists in Human Sciences, spite they are less visible and less strong than among certain persons of the fora and blog community...
It seems that the old « pots, no men » theory has still its supporters !


* We could suppose that the first I-E speakers waves contained less West-Neolithic auDNA than the subsequent ones.


I don’t know if Davidski has made PCA or other things about his diverse BB’s and his supposed Celts or Celts proxi’s ??? It could say us something, could it not ? Or I forgot.
 

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