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Thread: Proto-Indo-european languague : R1a or R1b ?

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    Proto-Indo-european languague : R1a or R1b ?



    Hello everybody,
    first, excuse me for my unperfect english, but I will do my best to be understood

    I have a problem with the so-evident link between Indo-european languages and R1a et R1b paternity

    Let me sum up the known fact


    1/ R1a and R1b splitted about 15.000 or 20.000 years ago, maybe in Central Asia (Altaï or Persia ?)
    I can't imagine the R* people had a common language at this time, who would survived more than 10.000 years...

    2/ R1a [-M417] (the most important lineage today - about 99% of the R1a) and R1b [-P297] (idem) "found themselves", thousand years after in the Pontic Step, circa 8000 years ago, or maybe they crossed the Caucasus together to install themselves in this new area.

    3/ R1a were located in the north of the Pontic Step and R1b in the south. But they together expand around the Pontic Step. R1a first to North and East-Europe, then in a second wave (about 4500 years ago), R1a to Central Asia (then South Asia) and R1b to Balkanic then Central and Western Europe.


    That's why Indo-European languages, identified since the end of the XIXth century, are spoken from Bangladesh to Ireland. That seems perfect, doesn't it ?


    However, there's something I can't understand.

    This beautiful story suppose that R1a and R1b living side to side in the Pontic Step had a common or- at least - related language, after beeing separated 10.000 years ago, during the late paleolithic period. It looks impossible, especially that we could suppose that the vocabulary in the paelolithic period have been weak, and most of the words created in the neolithic period...
    Beside, other R1 groups who doesn't participate to this emigration to the Pontic Stepp, doesn't speak proto-indoeuropean language at all (see for example the R1b-V88, migrating from South Caucasus to Levant then to Africa)

    Unless R1a or R1b imposed his language to the other group, but without really mixing them, what would seem strange to me.

    A third hypothesis could be that R1a and R1B both found in this Pontic Step (or during the crossing of the Caucasus) other groups (I2, J2, G, C ?) and, marrying their women, adopted their language . In this late hypothesis we could deduce that the Proto-Indo-European language have a more complexe origin.

    I haven't found any article or research about the question to know how R1a and R1b in the Stepp Pontic had the same language, or a similar language.

    Can someone help me with that question ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    Hello everybody,
    first, excuse me for my unperfect english, but I will do my best to be understood

    I have a problem with the so-evident link between Indo-european languages and R1a et R1b paternity

    Let me sum up the known fact


    1/ R1a and R1b splitted about 15.000 or 20.000 years ago, maybe in Central Asia (Altaï or Persia ?)
    I can't imagine the R* people had a common language at this time, who would survived more than 10.000 years...

    2/ R1a [-M417] (the most important lineage today - about 99% of the R1a) and R1b [-P297] (idem) "found themselves", thousand years after in the Pontic Step, circa 8000 years ago, or maybe they crossed the Caucasus together to install themselves in this new area.

    3/ R1a were located in the north of the Pontic Step and R1b in the south. But they together expand around the Pontic Step. R1a first to North and East-Europe, then in a second wave (about 4500 years ago), R1a to Central Asia (then South Asia) and R1b to Balkanic then Central and Western Europe.


    That's why Indo-European languages, identified since the end of the XIXth century, are spoken from Bangladesh to Ireland. That seems perfect, doesn't it ?


    However, there's something I can't understand.

    This beautiful story suppose that R1a and R1b living side to side in the Pontic Step had a common or- at least - related language, after beeing separated 10.000 years ago, during the late paleolithic period. It looks impossible, especially that we could suppose that the vocabulary in the paelolithic period have been weak, and most of the words created in the neolithic period...
    Beside, other R1 groups who doesn't participate to this emigration to the Pontic Stepp, doesn't speak proto-indoeuropean language at all (see for example the R1b-V88, migrating from South Caucasus to Levant then to Africa)

    Unless R1a or R1b imposed his language to the other group, but without really mixing them, what would seem strange to me.

    A third hypothesis could be that R1a and R1B both found in this Pontic Step (or during the crossing of the Caucasus) other groups (I2, J2, G, C ?) and, marrying their women, adopted their language . In this late hypothesis we could deduce that the Proto-Indo-European language have a more complexe origin.

    I haven't found any article or research about the question to know how R1a and R1b in the Stepp Pontic had the same language, or a similar language.

    Can someone help me with that question ?
    first I am not an expert!
    I have heard that R1a and J2 are more responsible for Indo-European languages, at some extent E also. R1a and J2 are found across Indo-European space from Bangladesh, India, Iran, to Spain and everything in between. I don't see the role of R1b in spreading Indo-European languages the same since its not present as often in Asia as other haplogroups. Some people believe J and R people domesticated the horse in Arabian peninsula and invented the wheel and everything exploded. Horse and the cart revolutionized the travelling and made possible spread of indoeuropeans

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    Do you mean R1a is more responsive of the genesis and the spreading of proto-indoeuropean language than R1b ?
    In fact it's my intuition too. I'm surprised that anybody ask the question in these terms in the huge litracy we can found in the web.

    I read that R1a and R1b, living 1 thousand years side to side before the rising of the common Yamna culture, finally adopted a common language, a lingua franca. I would have known if this lingua franca, the mother of our languages, came from the R1a or R1b. And why finally these people stayed apart ? indeed, R1a migrated to Central Asia and South Asia with a very few R1b ; and R1b migrated to Central then Western Europa with a very few of R1a.
    Maybe there's no answer and maybe I'm the only person in the Universe intesrested with the response, but I needed to ask !

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    Apparently Dr. Roy King also believes it's one or another more likely, not both.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...61739640348094

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    Quentin

    there is a 4rth hypothesis

    that of only J2 which gave language to both R1b and R1a
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    first I am not an expert!
    I have heard that R1a and J2 are more responsible for Indo-European languages, at some extent E also. R1a and J2 are found across Indo-European space from Bangladesh, India, Iran, to Spain and everything in between. I don't see the role of R1b in spreading Indo-European languages the same since its not present as often in Asia as other haplogroups. Some people believe J and R people domesticated the horse in Arabian peninsula and invented the wheel and everything exploded. Horse and the cart revolutionized the travelling and made possible spread of indoeuropeans

    When you say " i've heard " and " some people ". Are you sure you are not projecting what you internally wants to be the reality?

    IE languages with y-dna E and Horse domestication with Cart 'n' Wheel invention in Arabia... The only place those hypothesis could came from are realhistoryww and egyptsearch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Quentin

    there is a 4rth hypothesis

    that of only J2 which gave language to both R1b and R1a
    And from where would those " only " J2 came from? And why J2 explicitely without G2 or J1 or L1/2? You are certainly basing it on some ancestral dna, but there is no place where J2 was found alone, so how's that working in your head?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    When you say " i've heard " and " some people ". Are you sure you are not projecting what you internally wants to be the reality?

    IE languages with y-dna E and Horse domestication with Cart 'n' Wheel invention in Arabia... The only place those hypothesis could came from are realhistoryww and egyptsearch.
    horse was domesticated in Arabian peninsula. wheel was probably invented somewhere in Caspian area or Ukraine. R1a and j2 people new both, the horse and the wheel. I am not promoting anything Egyptian. as I said I am not an expert but this is one version of indoeuropianism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Quentin

    there is a 4rth hypothesis

    that of only J2 which gave language to both R1b and R1a

    Yes. It's the third hypothesis I wrote. J2 or another people gave language. Hope we will know more in the future, I'm passionate with this question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    horse was domesticated in Arabian peninsula. wheel was probably invented somewhere in Caspian area or Ukraine. R1a and j2 people new both, the horse and the wheel. I am not promoting anything Egyptian. as I said I am not an expert but this is one version of indoeuropianism
    Absolutely nobody from the scientific community that believes are not biased, is believing horse was domesticated in Arabia. You would understand that it would mean that the Arabian Horse would be Basal to all other Horses right? Well it's not the case. We dont have clear cut proof where wheel ( as chariot ) first occured and the claim about R1a and J2 rich population knowing both is also non-sensical, it all turns out about context and epoch.

    Instead of projecting thing, you should give us your source about your claim so we can make our own jugement on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    Yes. It's the third hypothesis I wrote. J2 or another people gave language. Hope we will know more in the future, I'm passionate with this question
    If PIE language came to the Pontic Steppe from South of the Caucasus or even Anatolia, it's very unlikely that J2 was the only y-dna marker spreading with it. Also what J2? J2a or J2b or both? He is only basing his hypothesis on two factors.

    1) The ancestrality and the credit he puts on Anatolian Languages.

    2) On the modern distribution of J2 in Anatolia that he wants to link with Anatolian speakers. The fact that he only said roughly J2 also goes along this idea.

    Those very simplified ideas are a big hand to all the peoples who have brainstorm on this community over the years, trying to found rational and unbiased ideas, community he is part for almost 8 years and still have the same ideas that in the beginning...

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    If PIE language came to the Pontic Steppe from South of the Caucasus or even Anatolia, it's very unlikely that J2 was the only y-dna marker spreading with it. Also what J2? J2a or J2b or both? He is only basing his hypothesis on two factors.

    1) The ancestrality and the credit he puts on Anatolian Languages.

    2) On the modern distribution of J2 in Anatolia that he wants to link with Anatolian speakers. The fact that he only said roughly J2 also goes along this idea.

    Those very simplified ideas are a big hand to all the peoples who have brainstorm on this community over the years, trying to found rational and unbiased ideas, community he is part for almost 8 years and still have the same ideas that in the beginning...
    you know, personnally I'm the less nationalist person in the world, I don't mind if one day we discover that PIE comes from J2, I2, Aborigenes, Bushmen (A) or Martians (X).

    I just disagree when there's something strange in established truth. I can't accept without checking 'R1a and R1b, living together, adopted a common language". It's a non-sense. I just look for hypothesis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    what do we know of antic anatolian languages ?
    - Louvits, Hittits, Phrygians, Armenians, spoke indo-european language coming from the balkans, from R1b populations ; the founders of Mitanni Empire came from South Asia, they spoke indo-iranian language, but adopted the preexistent language of the area
    - We don't know what could have been the language of the anatolians people (J2, G, also R1b who haven't participate to the migration to the north across Caucasus Mountains, etc.) before these migrations

    We are unable to translate the first minoan writing (A-Linear) used by the Cretan before -1700, who were essentially J2 before the coming of Mycenian then Dorian. The A-Linear can be considered as the oldest known writing of an essentially-J2 population. We just know that their language is too different from IE languages to be translated and even to use the same alphabet.
    However we know the existence of the hurrian language (kingdom of Mittani, north-east of Syria, east of Anatolia), written in cuneiform, non-semitic language nor IE language. J2 were probably in a majority among Hurrians.
    To sum up, we can say that known specific languages spoken by essentialy-J2-groups were very, very different of PIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    you know, personnally I'm the less nationalist person in the world, I don't mind if one day we discover that PIE comes from J2, I2, Aborigenes, Bushmen (A) or Martians (X).

    I just disagree when there's something strange in established truth. I can't accept without checking 'R1a and R1b, living together, adopted a common language". It's a non-sense. I just look for hypothesis.
    Nationalists would refuse to believe that a Steppe R1a/R1b population invaded Bronze Age Europe and that we mostly come from them. We will likely never discovered were PIE came from because it doesn't have any origin.

    See, people are missleading themselves to believe that, one day something as complicate as a language came from a certain place. But languages are genetic, meaning even Steppe is not the original place of PIE, because we dont understand still clearly the genetic evolutions of languages. The most ancestral core of what PIE could be, could come from way further away from where it was regionalized at some point.

    What do you found strang and in what established truth? Further, what is leading you to found it strange, do you know it?

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    Nationalists would refuse to believe that a Steppe R1a/R1b population invaded Bronze Age Europe

    I never refused that. Anybody can refuse it today with the progress of genetic knowledge.
    It's not the point. My question is the language.
    It's also possible that PIE comes from R1a or R1b, with no link with another group. It's the first hypothesis I wrote. If it's the case, did R1a impose it to R1b, or the contrary ? theses two groups were separated for thousand years before living side to side in the Pontic Step.
    I'm not looking for a polemic. Just accept that the question is important for me, without political or national motive

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    Just wait until we have ample Hallstatt/Mycenae/Anatolian samples, then we'll know for sure. Why speculate endlessly about haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Just wait until we have ample Hallstatt/Mycenae/Anatolian samples, then we'll know for sure. Why speculate endlessly about haplogroups.
    Because i do believe haplogroups dont tell us about the origin of a language, because a language doesn't have origin. People never stopped to spoke a language for another one. PIE is just the phase of an older language, of an older language.

    Imagine for a second about haplogroups and ancestral component. If we take the stance that PIE came from Steppe, it's core can came from EHG or CHG original population, now both are more WHG than ANE, so the core could be of WHG origin... or we do believe only civilization could bring language as PIE, so then CHG is the best fit, but because CHG are just HG's so then it's Iran_Neolithic, but then is it from Basal Eurasian or ANE? etc etc etc. There is really no need of existence for a PIE origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    Nationalists would refuse to believe that a Steppe R1a/R1b population invaded Bronze Age Europe

    I never refused that. Anybody can refuse it today with the progress of genetic knowledge.
    It's not the point. My question is the language.
    It's also possible that PIE comes from R1a or R1b, with no link with another group. It's the first hypothesis I wrote. If it's the case, did R1a impose it to R1b, or the contrary ? theses two groups were separated for thousand years before living side to side in the Pontic Step.
    I'm not looking for a polemic. Just accept that the question is important for me, without political or national motive
    I think you missunderstood me. I didn't claim you are Nationalist, what i'm saying is that a true Nationalist, especially an Ethno-Nationalist would not take proudly a Steppe origin for most of what he believes. They usually tend to believe in their own ethnogenesis as something very local. As a matter of fact, a nationalist would believe R1b is local to Western Europe for exemple. A lot of us here are at some extent passionnate by their origins or Indo-European questions, there is no shame to this.

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    fwiw, my branch of R1b was in the Balkans, Anatolia, and Armenia, during the Early Bronze-Age. At the time the L23 branch was in the pointic caspian steppe. Moreover, I have very low to no affinity with Yamnaya. Nevertheless, I'm just going by what my tests are telling me. It doesn't have anything to do with nationalism for me to not believe the steppe is responsible for the lion's share of my identity. Surely many other people do owe their ancestry to the steppe though.
    Here are examples of my results:


    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    My results are in:
    Ancient Farmers: 77.0%
    • Western European Farmers: 31.1%
    • Levant: 2.4%
    • Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%
    • Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%

    Steppe Cultures: 16.8%
    • Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%
    • Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%

    Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%

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    @halfalp
    You can think on the "most recent common ancestor" to all known Indo-European languages. That's what it's all about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Because i do believe haplogroups dont tell us about the origin of a language, because a language doesn't have origin. People never stopped to spoke a language for another one. PIE is just the phase of an older language, of an older language.

    Imagine for a second about haplogroups and ancestral component. If we take the stance that PIE came from Steppe, it's core can came from EHG or CHG original population, now both are more WHG than ANE, so the core could be of WHG origin... or we do believe only civilization could bring language as PIE, so then CHG is the best fit, but because CHG are just HG's so then it's Iran_Neolithic, but then is it from Basal Eurasian or ANE? etc etc etc. There is really no need of existence for a PIE origin.
    Considering that countless attempts to link IE to other languages have been unsuccesful, I think that the speakers of its earliest discernible form must have been pretty isolated. There weren't that many groups in LGM West Eurasia I think. South Urals, Aegean, Syro-Anatolia, Levant, Zagros, Franco-Cantabria. One of those must have been Ur-IE I suppose.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    If PIE language came to the Pontic Steppe from South of the Caucasus or even Anatolia, it's very unlikely that J2 was the only y-dna marker spreading with it. Also what J2? J2a or J2b or both? He is only basing his hypothesis on two factors.

    1) The ancestrality and the credit he puts on Anatolian Languages.

    2) On the modern distribution of J2 in Anatolia that he wants to link with Anatolian speakers. The fact that he only said roughly J2 also goes along this idea.

    Those very simplified ideas are a big hand to all the peoples who have brainstorm on this community over the years, trying to found rational and unbiased ideas, community he is part for almost 8 years and still have the same ideas that in the beginning...
    hm
    J2a is the Greco
    J2b is the Aryan
    of the Greco-Aryan hypothsesis,

    is it more deep now?

    the J2 hypothesis of South Caucas no matter is not very popular,
    is still more alive today than the R1a one
    especially considering BMAC-Andronovo case and you know it.

    what I say is clear,
    J2 spoke the first IE, somewhere south of Caucasos
    and trasmit it to both R1b and R1a who expand it to all over Eurasia,
    more simple can not be told

    I simply doupt of Steppe ancestry of IE language,
    and you know that I have partially right to that.
    As also possible more right have the steppe ancestry believers,
    But they still not certain,

    simple and clear,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    hm
    J2a is the Greco
    J2b is the Aryan
    of the Greco-Aryan hypothsesis,

    is it more deep now?

    the J2 hypothesis of South Caucas no matter is not very popular,
    is still more alive today than the R1a one
    especially considering BMAC-Andronovo case and you know it.

    what I say is clear,
    J2 spoke the first IE, somewhere south of Caucasos
    and trasmit it to both R1b and R1a who expand it to all over Eurasia,
    more simple can not be told

    I simply doupt of Steppe ancestry of IE language,
    and you know that I have partially right to that.
    As also possible more right have the steppe ancestry believers,
    But they still not certain,

    simple and clear,
    Your point is then J2a and J2b expanded early bringing Graeco-Aryan dialects in Greece and Iran, while Steppe R1b and R1a brought it to the rest of the world. Wich makes little sense. For a south caucasus hypothesis, J2a or J2b could only account for Proto-Anatolian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Considering that countless attempts to link IE to other languages have been unsuccesful, I think that the speakers of its earliest discernible form must have been pretty isolated. There weren't that many groups in LGM West Eurasia I think. South Urals, Aegean, Syro-Anatolia, Levant, Zagros, Franco-Cantabria. One of those must have been Ur-IE I suppose.
    So you dont count Balkans_Iron Gates or Baltic HG's? Or even Don-Donets? There was more than 300'000 HG's in Mesolithic Europe for what i've read recently. If PIE was just a dialect from a multi-linguistic province, it's mathematically impossible to know where it evolved. More, we dont understand that much the genetic of languages, any attempt like glottochronology to fix an age or a virtual place of origin seems wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin View Post
    what do we know of antic anatolian languages ?
    - Louvits, Hittits, Phrygians, Armenians, spoke indo-european language coming from the balkans, from R1b populations ; the founders of Mitanni Empire came from South Asia, they spoke indo-iranian language, but adopted the preexistent language of the area
    - We don't know what could have been the language of the anatolians people (J2, G, also R1b who haven't participate to the migration to the north across Caucasus Mountains, etc.) before these migrations

    We are unable to translate the first minoan writing (A-Linear) used by the Cretan before -1700, who were essentially J2 before the coming of Mycenian then Dorian. The A-Linear can be considered as the oldest known writing of an essentially-J2 population. We just know that their language is too different from IE languages to be translated and even to use the same alphabet.
    However we know the existence of the hurrian language (kingdom of Mittani, north-east of Syria, east of Anatolia), written in cuneiform, non-semitic language nor IE language. J2 were probably in a majority among Hurrians.
    To sum up, we can say that known specific languages spoken by essentialy-J2-groups were very, very different of PIE.
    There is just so many wrong things about PIE coming from South Caucasus in Maykop times. Most of the lineages found in Maykop, G2a1 and L2 are nowadays markers of Caucasus peoples with their Caucasian languages. So either, PIE came earlier ( where is Olympus Mons? ) or either PIE came from Steppe but was highly influenced by the languages brought by Maykop migrants, wich a part Vocabulary dont make sense.

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