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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Such a gorgeous song. I love their music, and their dances.

    You might like these.



    The Griko language:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSktx_kr4ww

    Grecanico...Just a bit of trivia, the famous Italian actor Raoul Bova traces some of his ancestry to this area.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0nTkxfneAE

    The oaf goes into a holy place half naked!


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    S Italy was colonised 5 times by Greeks or Greco-Romans
    while rest of Italy was 3 times, some parts.


    1rst the known ancient Colonization the Magna Grecia

    2nd is the Medieval, which included also Balcanic populations, and East Romans, the era of Slavic invasions and collapse of Danube line
    Aspromonte and Galliciano is from that case

    3rd is the Era of Constantinoupolis collapse starting Before 1400 AD till the stabilization, Even Greeks From Crimaia and Trebizon fled to West,
    the Era of marriage a princess and gain a title of nobility, Offcourse that did include only Greeks, but also other Balcanic and minor Asian population, even in Mantova, and more North we find Byzantine devastations

    4rth is the era of Enetocracy, when parts of Greco-Roman ex empire were hold by Vemice and Genoua, offcourse that was also the oposite, many Italians came to Greece as rulers, officers etc etc
    That is also the era of original Arberesh of Hora in Sicily , Santo Demetrio etc, the era when Greco-Roman army was mercenairy, the Era that in Venice was the St Giorgio dei Stradioti,

    5fth
    is the era before big revolt, the era of Piracy etc, the era of Orlov etc,
    lots of famillies or villages moved to Italy and West Europe to avoid revenge penalties, inner revenge and vendettas, Ottoman revenge and Turk-Albanian chase.
    an example is the Carghiese in Corsica from Καρυες (Καρυουπολις) and the Mondestre in Sardinia,

    Some families of the last 3 cases have returned at Hellas (now) at 1821 and after, some played semantic role in Greek revolt and rebirth,
    but majority remained back, as some Italian remained in their Aegean colonies


    the termination of Greek speaker in Italy and mainly in South,
    can not only determined by the ancient Greek colonisation only, which is still the main factor as concerning area spread,
    but spoted could also be the one we call Greco-Roman and East Roman which includes also elements from rest of Balkans and minor Asia, or other areas that cover that time,

    So when we say Grico, Grecani etc in Italy it has to do with consious of nationality and nativity
    a real Grico is 2700 years Greek and 100 years Italian, YET long time native in Italy.
    for him the memories are different, than the one who moved aafter 1400 AD
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.
    I speak both Greek and Italian. I can understand most of the lyrics but not every word. The base of this language is Greek but not modern Greek. In addition the Italian elements are not from the standard Italian but from southern Italian dialects. It's impressing how they combine these elements. For example it says penseonta. It means thinking. It is from the Italian verb pensare and the Greek ending ontas (skeftontas).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    S Italy was colonised 5 times by Greeks or Greco-Romans
    while rest of Italy was 3 times, some parts.


    1rst the known ancient Colonization the Magna Grecia

    2nd is the Medieval, which included also Balcanic populations, and East Romans, the era of Slavic invasions and collapse of Danube line
    Aspromonte and Galliciano is from that case

    3rd is the Era of Constantinoupolis collapse starting Before 1400 AD till the stabilization, Even Greeks From Crimaia and Trebizon fled to West,
    the Era of marriage a princess and gain a title of nobility, Offcourse that did include only Greeks, but also other Balcanic and minor Asian population, even in Mantova, and more North we find Byzantine devastations

    4rth is the era of Enetocracy, when parts of Greco-Roman ex empire were hold by Vemice and Genoua, offcourse that was also the oposite, many Italians came to Greece as rulers, officers etc etc
    That is also the era of original Arberesh of Hora in Sicily , Santo Demetrio etc, the era when Greco-Roman army was mercenairy, the Era that in Venice was the St Giorgio dei Stradioti,

    5fth
    is the era before big revolt, the era of Piracy etc, the era of Orlov etc,
    lots of famillies or villages moved to Italy and West Europe to avoid revenge penalties, inner revenge and vendettas, Ottoman revenge and Turk-Albanian chase.
    an example is the Carghiese in Corsica from Καρυες (Καρυουπολις) and the Mondestre in Sardinia,

    Some families of the last 3 cases have returned at Hellas (now) at 1821 and after, some played semantic role in Greek revolt and rebirth,
    but majority remained back, as some Italian remained in their Aegean colonies

    So as Salento pointed,
    the termination of Greek speaker in Italy and mainly in South,
    can not only determined by the ancient Greek colonisation only, which is still the main factor as concerning area spread,
    but spoted could also be the one we call Greco-Roman and East Roman which includes also elements from rest of Balkans and minor Asia, or other areas that cover that time,

    So when we say Grico, Grecani etc in Italy it has to do with consious of nationality and nativity
    a real Grico is 2700 years Greek and 100 years Italian, long time native in Italy.
    for him the memories are different, than the one who moved aafter 1400 AD
    The thing is, unlike the Arbereshe, the vast majority have no cultural memory of "arrival", which leads me to believe they're probably just southern Italians who held onto the Greek language and Orthodoxy longer than the others. After all, Italian was an interlude of about 500 years between Magna Graecia and the Byzantine Empire .

    Other than the migrations of Magna Graecia you're not talking about mass migrations, at least I've never seen reports of numbers like that, so while they may have had an impact, they weren't major.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    I speak both Greek and Italian. I can understand most of the lyrics but not every word. The base of this language is Greek but not modern Greek. In addition the Italian elements are not from the standard Italian but from southern Italian dialects. It's impressing how they combine these elements. For example it says penseonta. It means thinking. It is from the Italian verb pensare and the Greek ending ontas (skeftontas).

    Very interesting.

    I can say that from my husband's family history as well as academic sources, much bigger swathes of Calabria were "Greek" speaking until two hundred years or so ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting.

    I can say that from my husband's family history as well as academic sources, much bigger swathes of Calabria were "Greek" speaking until two hundred years or so ago.
    At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.
    If that's true, then the Greek part of the language may stem from the language of the Byzantine administrators, because it was a Doric language which was spoken there during the time of Magna Graecia.

    In Calabria, on the other hand, you do have some Ionic speakers originally.

    We don't know, however, if one dialect eventually spread throughout Magna Graecia, or at least "I" don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If that's true, then the Greek part of the language may stem from the language of the Byzantine administrators, because it was a Doric language which was spoken there during the time of Magna Graecia.

    In Calabria, on the other hand, you do have some Ionic speakers originally.


    We don't know, however, if one dialect eventually spread throughout Magna Graecia, or at least "I" don't.
    It is not clear yet. There are different suggestions about the origin of these dialects. In my opinion the best explanation is that the dialects of Magna Grecia were enriched by some Greek medieval elements during the Byzantine era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    It is not clear yet. There are different suggestions about the origin of these dialects. In my opinion the best explanation is that the dialects of Magna Grecia were enriched by some Greek medieval elements during the Byzantine era.

    That seems very logical to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.
    It does sound like the Ionian islands dialects but I also hear Cretan and Aegean island dialects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The thing is, unlike the Arbereshe, the vast majority have no cultural memory of "arrival", which leads me to believe they're probably just southern Italians who held onto the Greek language and Orthodoxy longer than the others. After all, Italian was an interlude of about 500 years between Magna Graecia and the Byzantine Empire .

    Other than the migrations of Magna Graecia you're not talking about mass migrations, at least I've never seen reports of numbers like that, so while they may have had an impact, they weren't major.
    I was clear. before we agree notice this

    Yes the major devastation was the 1rst one,
    and not the numbers some imagine, but they made a new culture there,
    the second Bigest was the collapse of Constantinoupolis, not only Italy, but every where, even Russia.
    but that was a discrace devastation, mainly of elite, and resist ones, nobody who devastate wants to remember it.
    Santa Sofia (Athena godess in fathers religion) churches after 1350 is a memmory, don't you think?
    the old culture absorved the newcomers, who wanted to forget.

    There is a lot of Koine than ancient Doric or Ionian if you know Greek,
    which justifies newcomers mix with the old ones,
    as also the C 'ts' instead of K shows much Italo/latin influence,

    as i said 2800 years Italian native some, yet 2700 years Greek
    But some are less than 600 years native, due to Koine Greek dialect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It does sound like the Ionian islands dialects but I also hear Cretan and Aegean island dialects.
    Yes it is true. I had watched these documentaries with a Cypriot who told me this dialect reminds him somehow the Cypriot dialect. But maybe it is just the accent.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    On some of the comments on the posted videos, Cypriot Greeks claim that some of the words sound like the Cypriot dialect of Greek.

    Also from the comments:

    Hearing Calabrian Greek spoken in the villages of Gallicianò and Bova. For those who speak Greek, I didn't find it to be ancient or Doric sounding at all. There are some words that certainly are old ("outhe" for "no", "chloro" for the color green, "anthos" for flower, "platego" for "to speak" which probably comes from "politeuo" (πολιτευω) which means "to act like a citizen/speak in a public forum" etc.). But it basically sounds like Italianized modern Greek with some ancient words.There appear to be no theta, gamma, or delta sounds evidencing Latin/Italian influence. Anything beginning with a "kappa" is pronounced with a "che" rather than a hard c sound like modern Greek. Hence you hear "che" for "and" instead of kai (και). The "ψ" is inverted. Rather than a "ps" sound in modern Greek, Calabrian Greek say "sp." Hence, the modern Greek word "psyche" (ψυχή) is pronounced "spyche." Also all "chi" ("Χ") and "xi"sounds ("Ξ") seem pronounced like "sh" which is common in modern Italian.I suspect they speak a dialect more closely related to the Koine Greek spoken at the time of the 11th century Byzantine Empire, the last and final time Southern Italy was still part of the Greek speaking world. What's interesting is that they have no Turkish loan words which modern Greek has such as tzami for "glass" among others (they call it "vitro" which is Italian) which make sense given the Ottomans never conquered the region. Overall, most modern Greek speakers should understand it pretty thoroughly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    At the documentary you posted a man says that in Salento before the second world war everyone was speaking Griko. It is similar to the dialect of Ionian islands who were influenced by Venetians but more "Italian-shifted". It's a very interesting culture and many of these people carry still Byzantine surnames. A Calabrian told me once that my surname is diffused in this area.
    Maybe the man meant that everyone spoke Griko in his Town.

    I assure you, in Salento the vast majority of the people did not speak Griko before ww2.

    Only 10-11 small Towns have a connection with the Griko.
    There are 97 Towns in the Province of Lecce alone, going over 100 by adding part of Brindisi and Taranto.


    The Towns belonging to Grecìa Salentina are in Red and Green.




    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grecìa_Salentina

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    I am curious to see the gedmatch results of these people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    I am curious to see the gedmatch results of these people.
    The second post of this thread refers you to couple of articles. I don't know about gedmatch results.

    From the first article it seems that they show remarkable similarity to the surrounding Southern Italian population but with some genetic drift due to inbreeding and isolatedness. This can only lead to one of the two conclusions: Both populations were part of the Med genetic continuum or the ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia overwhelmed the area and then were assimilated into the Italian ethnos, except for these isolates in the Calabrian mountains. It would be interesting to see if official records support one or the other conclusion.

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    Bigsnake

    you are right, they have enough koine,
    which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
    and during Roman empire,

    I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
    since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)

    did you notice any absence of dative case?
    When you believe started the language start to decline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Bigsnake

    you are right, they have enough koine,
    which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
    and during Roman empire,

    I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
    since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)

    did you notice any absence of dative case?
    When you believe started the language start to decline
    I think their isolation started during the dark ages when piracy was rampant in the Mediterranean. Venetian, Genovese and Catalan pirates, not to mention Saracens were the scourge of the Med coastal communities. So a lot of Magna Grecia Greeks moved to the mountainous areas.

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    In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation.

    The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.

    The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.

    From Herodotus:
    ... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...

    ... fu questa la più grande strage di Greci e Reggini che noi conosciamo ...

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation.

    The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.

    The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.

    From Herodotus:
    ... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...

    ... fu questa la più grande strage di Greci e Reggini che noi conosciamo ...

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi
    Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
    This is from Wikipedia

    Nella seconda met del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm mai. L'impero bizantino, favor l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Greca salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.

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    @Angela.
    Why you deleted my post? Why you gave me an infraction, which member i offended with my post?
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
    This is from Wikipedia

    Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.
    Bizantine, or better Romans means different ethnic groups. For example Jewish:
    https://books.google.al/books?id=xYw...page&q&f=false

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
    This is from Wikipedia

    Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.

    Let’s not confuse all of Salento with Grecìa-Salentina.

    Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.

    Grecìa-Salentina is just an area of 11 Towns located in Salento.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Bizantine, or better Romans means different ethnic groups. For example Jewish:
    https://books.google.al/books?id=xYw...page&q&f=false
    I know that but most of them came from the area of Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Let’s not confuse all of Salento with Grecìa-Salentina.

    Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.

    Grecìa-Salentina is just an area of 11 Towns located in Salento.
    What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.

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