Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

I am curious to see the gedmatch results of these people.

The second post of this thread refers you to couple of articles. I don't know about gedmatch results.

From the first article it seems that they show remarkable similarity to the surrounding Southern Italian population but with some genetic drift due to inbreeding and isolatedness. This can only lead to one of the two conclusions: Both populations were part of the Med genetic continuum or the ancient Greeks of Magna Grecia overwhelmed the area and then were assimilated into the Italian ethnos, except for these isolates in the Calabrian mountains. It would be interesting to see if official records support one or the other conclusion.
 
Bigsnake

you are right, they have enough koine,
which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
and during Roman empire,

I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)

did you notice any absence of dative case?
When you believe started the language start to decline
 
Bigsnake

you are right, they have enough koine,
which means they were connected with rest Greeks linguistically even after Hellenistic world,
and during Roman empire,

I believe their isolation and decline as linguistic group started with invasion of Normands,
since they do not have any demotic Greek (δημωδη οχι δημοτικη γλωσσα)

did you notice any absence of dative case?
When you believe started the language start to decline

I think their isolation started during the dark ages when piracy was rampant in the Mediterranean. Venetian, Genovese and Catalan pirates, not to mention Saracens were the scourge of the Med coastal communities. So a lot of Magna Grecia Greeks moved to the mountainous areas.
 
In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation.

The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.

The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.

From Herodotus:
... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...

... fu questa la più grande strage di Greci e Reggini che noi conosciamo ...

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi
 
In Salento the Greek Colonists were massacred by the Messapi, nobody spoke Greek after that besides Taranto until the Roman annexation.

The Messapic language became extinct around the 1st cent. BC after the Roman Republic conquered Apulia, after that they spoke Latin.

The Griko speakers are related to the the more recent 15 century AD Refugees running away from the Ottomans.

From Herodotus:
... this was the biggest massacre of Greeks and Reggini that we know ...

... fu questa la più grande strage di Greci e Reggini che noi conosciamo ...

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi

Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
This is from Wikipedia

Nella seconda met? del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio? riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar? parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm? mai. L'impero bizantino, favor? l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec?a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.
 
@Angela.
Why you deleted my post? Why you gave me an infraction, which member i offended with my post?
 
Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
This is from Wikipedia

Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.

Bizantine, or better Romans means different ethnic groups. For example Jewish:
https://books.google.al/books?id=xY...ws&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
This is from Wikipedia

Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.


Let’s not confuse all of Salento with Grecìa-Salentina.

Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.

Grecìa-Salentina is just an area of 11 Towns located in Salento.
 
Let’s not confuse all of Salento with Grecìa-Salentina.

Salento is huge, it encompasses 3 Provinces of Puglia.

Grecìa-Salentina is just an area of 11 Towns located in Salento.

What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.
 
What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.

The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.

Salento is the greyed out area on the right.

I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...

Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.

WOnptFK.jpg



@Yetos Very funny lol
 
Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
This is from Wikipedia

Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.

Which article xri? I'd like to see if they provide sources.
 
The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.

Salento is the greyed out area on the right.

I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...

Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.

WOnptFK.jpg



@Yetos Very funny lol
Is this from AncestryDNA? Interesting that they leave outside this part! I score at 23andme 9.2% Italian and especially Puglia. Of course it may be just genetic similarity. However I am from Peloponnese and we should bear in mind that after Byzantine Empire reconquested the region by Slavs (9th century) and removed many of them to other areas brought in Peloponnese many Greek speakers from Southern Italy who left their genetic impact in the area.
 
Yes ........
 
Yes ........
Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.
 
Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.

Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.


in Italian:
... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino


my NatGeo:

SrbRd77.jpg
 
Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.


in Italian:
... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino


my NatGeo:

SrbRd77.jpg
This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.
 
This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.


I don’t know the deep history of every single corner of South Italy, I know mine. :giggle:
 

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