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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Salento

    The whole story reminds me an older event, a joke, that came to reality for some,
    when some tourists instead of Athena, wrote Atena
    and the GBS drove them to Atena Lucana

    https://newsbeezer.com/greeceeng/the...loukana-world/
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    What I say is just that Griko language exists in the area before 15th century.
    The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.

    Salento is the greyed out area on the right.

    I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...

    Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.




    @Yetos Very funny lol
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Even if the Greek colonists of Antiquity were massacred in this area there were the Byzantine colonisations mainly from the area of Greece. It doesn't make sense the Griko to be based on 15th century Greek because it is obvious it has many archaic elements. A theory says that it comes from 9th century Greco-Byzantine settlers.
    This is from Wikipedia

    Nella seconda met� del IX secolo si venne concretizzando quella che rappresenta la seconda colonizzazione bizantina: gran parte del sud Italia venne cio� riconquistato dai bizantini e fu diviso in tre themi: Calabria, Lucania, Langobardia. La vecchia "Calabria", ossia l'odierno Salento, sar� parte del thema di Langobardia. Nome, questo, che, al contrario di quanto era accaduto nella regione calabrese, non si afferm� mai. L'impero bizantino, favor� l'immigrazione di bizantini, in particolare nel sud del Salento, per ripopolare una zona considerata strategica. Le tracce di quell'antica migrazione sopravvivono tutt'oggi nell'isola linguistica della Grec�a salentina, dove si parla una lingua direttamente imparentata al greco.
    Which article xri? I'd like to see if they provide sources.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Which article xri? I'd like to see if they provide sources.
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storia...ione_bizantina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    The Griko speakers have always been a small minority in Salento, never the majority.

    Salento is the greyed out area on the right.

    I’m from that greyed out area, but somehow I ...

    Maybe there’s some small genetic differences between Salentinians, ... maybe.




    @Yetos Very funny lol
    Is this from AncestryDNA? Interesting that they leave outside this part! I score at 23andme 9.2% Italian and especially Puglia. Of course it may be just genetic similarity. However I am from Peloponnese and we should bear in mind that after Byzantine Empire reconquested the region by Slavs (9th century) and removed many of them to other areas brought in Peloponnese many Greek speakers from Southern Italy who left their genetic impact in the area.

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    Yes ........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Yes ........
    Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Do you have any sources that Greek speakers in Salento were only a small minority during Byzantine period? Because I know that in Byzantine Italy a considerable part of population was speaking Greek. After 11th century when Byzantines left there was a donward trend at the Greek speaking population.
    Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
    The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.


    in Italian:
    ... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino


    my NatGeo:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Salentinian language got influenced, not replaced. Big Difference.
    The Griko is a left over language from the Ancestors of the latest colonists, spoken in the Greek communities, not outside.


    in Italian:
    ... l'avvento dell'Impero Bizantino, a partire dal sec. VI. Nascono così il salentino romanzo e il salentino messapico-bizantino, frutto di prestiti reciproci dei loro antecedenti (latino e messapico) e dirette derivazioni dell'attuale lingua. Continuano i prestiti e le influenze reciproche tra una lingua e l'altra ...

    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_salentino


    my NatGeo:

    This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    This was not my question. I know that Greek speakers came once from Greece and they are not native Italians. What I ask you is if you have a source that Greek speakers were a small minority during Byzantine period. I know that in many areas of Southern Italy and Sicily the Greek speakers were a big part of the population not only the Antiquity but also the middle-ages.

    I don’t know the deep history of every single corner of South Italy, I know mine.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    the Ancient Greek colonists were spread in S Italy and Sikelia,
    they made their circle, and in some areas 'resist' and kept alive and in some not,
    Roides mention about gathering the Greeks of Sicily and send them to Scythopolis to execute them,
    Yet I believe that some 'pockets kept their language,
    but after that many devastations happened through centuries,
    I wrote a post about the waves and the reasons,
    Many of what today apeak Grico Grecanica etc are not from antique, but from medieval devastations,
    for example it is Certified that Galliciano are from today Κιλκις the Roman Callicum, Notice Gallicos river, Γαλλικος Not Εχεδωρος,
    and moved there the era of Slavic expand to Balkans, and has nothing to do with Ancient Magna Grecia,
    Yet the ancient Greek should be spoken in some pockets until the Normand occupation for me,
    But major Greek were lost after Mediolanum treaty, ancient Greeks had a kind of holocaust after that.
    yet due to the spread and those who convert to christianity the DNA remains.

    So for those who know the history it is not surprising that many of the Grico are not ancient,
    Until 1800 villages from Greeks moved to Italy and rest Europe silently.

    The eras and the reasons
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post574082



    to understand
    Notice the song,

    Ti en glicea tusi nifta, ti en òria,
    c’evò ‘e plonno pensèonta ‘s esena,
    c’ettumpì sti’ fenèstrassu, agàpimu,
    tis kardìammu su nifto ti’ pena.
    Evò panta ‘s esena penseo,
    jatì ‘sena, fsichimmu gapò,
    ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,

    it says penseontas which is Italian Pense and Greek ending of grammatical participle -ωντας, it means not usage of ancient νοω, neither modern σκεφτομαι
    also notice
    glicea tusi nifta, glykea toytth nyhta
    γλυκεα τουτη Νυχτα,
    Ending -ea -εα is far old, back to antique, if was modern it should be γλυκια -ia

    BUT
    ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
    και που παω που σερνω που στεω
    we see usage of που ιnstead of οθεν
    and ιστημι as στεω (strange active voice usage, passive is ισταμαι)
    which is modern στε-κομαι.

    that means that this dialect was close to Koine evolution, had communication, or come from centuries much after collapse of Hellenistic kingdoms
    and also that comes from older ones ending -ea,
    but is so many years in Italy, that did not replace νοω with σκεπτομαι but with Italian pense.

    which means that either was alive and big center of commerce and studies, which is not
    or is created after christianity stabilization, I don't know exactly when, I guess much much later,
    or newcomers found a substractum of ancient Greek and create the dialect, which member Salento excludes it.


    BTW a Joke
    when few months ago was in Crete, accomodated by local native friends,
    there was an Italian pasta maestro, fresh macaroni, handmade, etc
    He is from somewhere central Italy,
    he was well known to my friends so to tease him and make jokes,
    every time they ask him the same question, due to history of island,
    'hey, Do you want, to take back Crete? or would n't be nice, to take back Crete?
    and the answer was so smart and so simple
    'To do it what? we have an island bigger than yours, and our South is more Greek than you are'





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    It goes both way. It’s complicated.

    I was trying to be on Topic.

    I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It goes both way. It’s complicated.

    I was trying to be on Topic.

    I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)
    Yeah, Corinth for example. The Romas slaugtered the male inhabitants and the rest of population were sold as slave. Later Julius Caesar rebuild the city.

    Battle of Corinth (146 BC)

    Aftermath
    Corinth was utterly destroyed in this year by the vicious Roman army and all of her treasures and art plundered. The entire adult male population was put to the sword and the female population and children sold into slavery. The annihilation of Corinth, the same fate met by Carthage the same year, marked a severe departure from previous Roman policy in Greece.
    While there is archaeological evidence of some minimal habitation in the years afterwards, Julius Caesar re-established the city as Colonia Laus Iulia Corinthiensis in 44 BCE, shortly before his assassination.

    Monument of Dexilaus: Depiction of an Athenian slain by a Roman at the Battle of Corinth
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It goes both way. It’s complicated.

    I was trying to be on Topic.

    I’m considerate so I’m not going to mention migrations in the opposite direction from the Roman Era, up to the more recent 1912 Dodecanese. :)

    you mean this?

    Eleousa ελεουσα
    in Italian Campo Chiaro



    the Beatyfull abbandon village,
    una villachio bello, ma Alpino artitectura
    con disegno fantastici e costrictione meravigliosa
    me altri, estraneo finezza per isola Med
    Ok we run offtopic


    Btw Salento look this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=WqYq07zo2G8

    the villa of Mousolini as it called (De Vecci)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEw2Fn_zKls

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92AQw6LSkaE

    The Italian effort to colonise Dodecanese at 20th century was a Failure.

    Yet Italian's manage Better to settle in Greece in Era of Enetocracy,
    Most Italian family surnames you find, are from this Era,
    many of their communities from that era still are alive,
    there is no need to say names
    Last edited by Yetos; 28-04-19 at 16:49.

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    @Yetos
    It all depends on the stories we choose to hear.

    I didn't know at first it was a competition. :)

    God forbid we don't go off topic at least once. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Yetos
    It all depends on the stories we choose to hear.

    I didn't know at first it was a competition. :)

    God forbid we don't go off topic at least once. LOL

    Ok then,
    If we are not offtopic

    Yes I agree what you call the opposite way
    Romans did not only Colonise Greece but also the whole balkans peninsula
    A big part of Armani people have their ancestry there, in Roman Villas and Roman legions
    a big part of later East Roman elite is also from Roman families, court in the begin, and a part later was always of Roman origin.
    I mean a lot of Con/polis elite was Roman,

    Italians
    With Italy we may mean the peninsula, the today people etc
    As Italians and not Romans the feeling and determination we give in Greece is the after Crusades Italy.
    So an Italian from Roman era, is considered as Rum Romios,
    But an Italian from second era I mention is considered different as Italian,
    Yes there were colonisation and settlements etc in Helladic space,
    and a lot of families or villages come from this era colonization,
    even some modern politicians come from this era,
    some surnames still exist.
    I do not know how much affected population, but traveling in these areas you can find much,

    But the dodecanese case, hm

    btw there is no competition,

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    One of the papers cited above states that mainland Greeks are only slightly different than the other populations in the Mediterranean continuum. The Peloponnesian study shows slight overlapping and closeness with Sicilians, though that study didn’t look at other Balkan populations.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Indeed.

    What people have to remember is that a lot of analyses on mainland Greeks have traditionally been done using one academic sample which happens to have been taken from Thessaly. Central Greece and the Peloponnese may, in fact, would, imo, give different results.

    I think it's clear that the people of southern Italy spoke a form of Greek during the period of Magna Graecia. To what extent they switched to Latin, I don't know. I'm sure they did for the bureaucracy etc., but did the common people continue speaking Greek to some extent? I don't know.

    Then there's the 600 year period when Byzantium ruled big swathes of the south. Again, I would think the elites would speak a form of Byzantine Greek, but did all the common people do so as well?

    Then we have the period of Italicization, with perhaps a mixture of languages once more, but some additional Greek speakers might have arrived.

    It's almost impossible to get answers from archaeology or the snippets of history we possess as to exactly what changes happened and where and when.

    I'll leave it to the linguists, who seem to feel there is Byzantine Greek but also some archaic Greek, and then Italian additions as well.

    Meanwhile, none of this tells us about genetic changes, if any. Language change happens when rulers change. It doesn't necessarily mean massive genetic change.

    I've read a lot about Greek refugees arriving at various periods after the colonization in the first millennium BC. I don't at all doubt it. However, I've been looking for papers for a long time which might indicate how many came, and I can find nothing.

    If I take the Langobards as an example, I can see that even a folk migration during a time when Italy was depopulated after the Gothic Wars, while it did have an effect on the Italian genome in certain areas of the country, did not massively change it if we try to approximate it by the changes in ydna. Even in the areas where they had the biggest impact, like the Veneto, the amount of U-106 and even I1 is not very high.

    I would say my tried and true line that we need more ancient dna, such as samples before late antiquity and after, and then after the fall of Constantinople, etc. but if these groups were pretty similar to begin with, I don't know if even that will give us the answers we would like.

    Anyway, here is one paper on the Salento which gives a lot of context but no answers.
    https://www.academia.edu/2522547/Vil...dieval_Salento

    I'll keep looking when I have the time.

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    I tried looking at the dance costumes of the area but they are rather plain, not that much different than Italian or Sicilian dance costumes. As far as the closest Greek costumes, maybe Cypriot?

    Griko:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...bria_Italy.JPG

    Compare it with all the costumes from different areas of Greece:

    https://www.pinterest.com/tinaliaos/...dance-costume/

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I tried looking at the dance costumes of the area but they are rather plain, not that much different than Italian or Sicilian dance costumes. As far as the closest Greek costumes, maybe Cypriot?

    Griko:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_...bria_Italy.JPG

    Compare it with all the costumes from different areas of Greece:

    https://www.pinterest.com/tinaliaos/...dance-costume/
    Traditional festival dress of the Gargano peninsula Puglia:


    Lecce in the Salento:


    I'm not aware that their clothing was any different than that of the people around them.

    As for the pizzica dancers, the dance of today is completely different from the dance as it is first recorded. It was a rather frightening looking dance where the women looked like they were possessed. The idea was that they had been bitten by a scorpion and they were trying to dance the poison out of their bodies. It was dance as ritual healing.

    The realty was probably either hysteria brought on by the tragedies and restrictions of their lives, or mental illness, or either one married to ancient, perhaps Dionysian rites, as it was always women who were so afflicted.

    The women would start dancing wearing whatever they were wearing when bitten, or were put into white, almost penitential garb.


    From this frightening dance (and the real footage is infinitely more disturbing), the Salentini created a dance of beauty, grace, and sensuality.

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    Are you talking about this dance?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn

    It kind of reminds of Irish dances.

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    That’s a courtship Pizzica, the song is pretty much in Leccese dialect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Are you talking about this dance?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn

    It kind of reminds of Irish dances.
    from desperation to rebirth







    They were bitten by spiders and they'll be out of control until the spider dies.
    The feet (Dance) is to step-on and kill the spider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Are you talking about this dance?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSEhBNa_Pns&frags=pl%2Cwn

    It kind of reminds of Irish dances.
    Bigsnake,

    that is healing dance.
    burn tarantella's poison before burns you
    intoxination via dance, as bacchian philosophy, not by food as christian fasting.




    the scene reminds me the sacred Μαιναδες the Maenads, or the κλυδωνες-κλοδονες , cludones, even some Momos dances which exist today.
    and the intoxination via dance
    no typical steps,
    and as I know it was danced with the foot heel, not with foot 'fingers'
    Notice the Αναστεναρια, anastenaria, the coal dancers of Thrace, which is also a healing dance, and has no steps, and is danced with heel




    the rythm sends me also to Cretan and Pontic kotsari
    but these have certain steps,
    who knows,

    Salento were there in the area any Lyra players?





    Anyway Salento if it is Bacchian philoshophy dance,
    Then it is very very old, Much much older than Christianity stabilization
    which means this population has memories and traditions before lets say 300-400 AD (mediolanum Roman treaty for Christianity) not to go much back to 6th century BC which is possible
    Last edited by Yetos; 30-04-19 at 00:14.

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    @Yetos La Lira Bizantina?

    Yes, and they used to make it too.

    but not in my Life Time. LOL

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