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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    In Greece there are about 3 Lyras. Constantinoupoli/Thracian Lyra, Pontian Lyra and Cretan Lyra. Isn't there a Calabrian Lyra?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awQXZa4M8I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOckxRSrnA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsiionGPPg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9M...&frags=pl%2Cwn

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It went from that frightening exorcism to this...


    This is what I see them doing in the piazzas in the summer during the festival. Once the beat gets into your bloodstream you can't stop.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEdMIqd_mB8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHHS1bbJeQM

    Really good professional dancers, male and female...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-NDwsO1mFc


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    In Greece there are about 3 Lyras. Constantinoupoli/Thracian Lyra, Pontian Lyra and Cretan Lyra. Isn't there a Calabrian Lyra?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7awQXZa4M8I

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOckxRSrnA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egsiionGPPg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x9M...&frags=pl%2Cwn
    Yes, there are still people who play a lira in Calabria.

    Siderno, near some of my husband's people.


    You can see they still use the piffero too, as we do in the north. Not my favorite instrument.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tncjZh_BqMo


    Bova, where some Grecanico speakers still live.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vP5mgNSVKo

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    yup
    As I expected

    with lyra these dances are closer to my ear sounds, and seem more natural to me,
    with hamonicas etc seem more W European

    Algela I used your link
    I think the 1rst version can easily pass as modern Helladic song

    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As a kid we used to play soccer in one of the Archeological sites.
    At that time those were just ruins. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm a native Greek speaker. Watching the videos, I understand 50% of the words. Reading the transcript I understand everything. The music is also incredibly similar to traditional Greek music. I really hope I'll be able to visit these places one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Many Albanians indeed suffer from ultranationalism induced fantasies. History , though,tells us another story, that the genetic influence was the other way around.
    A very small nation(300 000 people 200 years ago based on ottoman censuses) that constantly was fed with the genetics of its neighbors due to Islam and the ottoman military structures.
    Muslim Albanians were defacto the ruling class of much of the lower Balkans. Turks entrusted them , as kinds of subcontractors, to keep the ''law and order'' in the region. Aside from the incorporation of most Muslim converts in the (usually of mixed populations, other than the northern Albania) areas where Albanians lived into the Albanian ethnic group (in the albanian dominated pashaliks, Yanena and scutari,and rumeli eyalet in general) the child harvest , known as paidomazoma/yenitsaroi with Greeks and Janissaries in english, abducted and converted to Islam hundreds of thousands of children over the 300 years of the institution. In the Areas that Albanians ruled, those Janissaries corps were incorporated into the Albanian nation (due to the Muslim faith). Thus the peculiarities of Albanian Islam which was traditionally heavily influenced from the Bektashi order(yenissaries were all followers of that sect) due to the enormous impact of those corps to the Albanian society and ethnic group.
    Now, you're doing it. You've earned yourself an infraction. This is not going to turn into another flame war between Greeks and Albanians.

    As for the Griko language, it is protected by the Italian government, so any suggestion that it is considered a "threat" is absurd. Get your facts straight. So, by the way, is the Albanian language. That short distance across the Adriatic makes a huge difference.

    Any more of this and I'll just start deleting posts.

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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Italian people and government has proven themselves very fair when it comes to conservation and respect of minority rights/languages, if the balkans was like that there would be 90% less fighting
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    LAdy those ARE facts.
    And aint playing your silly forum games. Grow up.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    By all means continue, and you'll be out of here sooner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    I'm a native Greek speaker. Watching the videos, I understand 50% of the words. Reading the transcript I understand everything. The music is also incredibly similar to traditional Greek music. I really hope I'll be able to visit these places one day.
    Thanks Kostop,
    If you noticed any word or particular accents that relate or remind you of place in Greece you’re welcome to opine. :)

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    I recall seeing one in Calabria, very similar to the one we have in Crete. It didn't surprise me, since this type of Lyra originates from Byzantine Greeks, which controlled most of southern Italy and Sicily even up until the 11th century AD if i recall correctly.

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    I am trying to trace my wife's grandmother's origins. She came from Calabria but I have no idea from which city or town. Yes I checked the Ellis Island records and the only thing I got from them is they misspelled her last name Celano from Celana and the last place of residence or birth is Cazanova. Now there was/is a neighborhood in Napoli named Casanova around via Casanova. I don't think there is a place in Calabria named Casanova but I could be wrong. Is there a centralized resource for genealogical research in Italy?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I am trying to trace my wife's grandmother's origins. She came from Calabria but I have no idea from which city or town. Yes I checked the Ellis Island records and the only thing I got from them is they misspelled her last name Celano from Celana and the last place of residence or birth is Cazanova. Now there was/is a neighborhood in Napoli named Casanova around via Casanova. I don't think there is a place in Calabria named Casanova but I could be wrong. Is there a centralized resource for genealogical research in Italy?
    No, there isn't, unfortunately.

    I sometimes use the Catholic directory of parishes, because people might list that as place of origin instead of the comune, but even there, there is no Casanova or Casanova in Calabria.
    http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...try&country=it

    I highly doubt a Calabrian would say they were Neapolitan or vice versa, however. They were virtual "foreigners" to each other until they met here.

    There is a Casabona in Calabria, however, and the people at Ellis Island are notorious for bungling the records. I know of a Chini who became Kinney. They spent the rest of the their lives down three generations explaining they weren't Irish. :)

    http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...ecity=Casabona

    It's in the provincia of Cortone.

    According to this site, there's a lot of "Celanos" in Calabria.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.XOA9Q8hKhPY

    There's only one Celana, and it is in Campania, but when there's only one variant like that I find it's almost always that this family is mis-spelling it.

    If it were me I would write to both parishes in Casabona Calabria to inquire.

    https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...rical_Records)

    http://geocities.ws/paulanigro/itali...m-letters.html

    You could also try to hunt out the parish church in the Cazanova neighborhood in Napoli, just in case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, there isn't, unfortunately.

    I sometimes use the Catholic directory of parishes, because people might list that as place of origin instead of the comune, but even there, there is no Casanova or Casanova in Calabria.
    http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...try&country=it

    I highly doubt a Calabrian would say they were Neapolitan or vice versa, however. They were virtual "foreigners" to each other until they met here.

    There is a Casabona in Calabria, however, and the people at Ellis Island are notorious for bungling the records. I know of a Chini who became Kinney. They spent the rest of the their lives down three generations explaining they weren't Irish. :)

    http://www.thecatholicdirectory.com/...ecity=Casabona

    It's in the provincia of Cortone.

    According to this site, there's a lot of "Celanos" in Calabria.
    http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turis...0#.XOA9Q8hKhPY

    There's only one Celana, and it is in Campania, but when there's only one variant like that I find it's almost always that this family is mis-spelling it.

    If it were me I would write to both parishes in Casabona Calabria to inquire.

    https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...rical_Records)

    http://geocities.ws/paulanigro/itali...m-letters.html

    You could also try to hunt out the parish church in the Cazanova neighborhood in Napoli, just in case.
    She boarded the boat to the US out of Napoli and I am thinking she might have stayed in the Casanova neighborhood while waiting for her boat. She lied about her age to get on the boat (she was 15 and declared herself to be 19).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Thanks Kostop,
    If you noticed any word or particular accents that relate or remind you of place in Greece you’re welcome to opine. :)
    The accents in the videos reminded me more of Peloponisos, and Cyprus. But they would not sound "alien" anywhere in Greece, especially in rural areas where "pitch accent" still survives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    She boarded the boat to the US out of Napoli and I am thinking she might have stayed in the Casanova neighborhood while waiting for her boat. She lied about her age to get on the boat (she was 15 and declared herself to be 19).
    Hehe, figured it out. Actually went to the ship's passenger manifest and after a few false starts deciphered the handwriting. She came from Terranova da Sibari, Cosenza, Calabria.There are a few Celanos in the area still. :).

    Guess which town is to the west of it. Yes, yes Spezzano Albanese! One of the people from there is right above her in the passenger manifest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kostop View Post
    The accents in the videos reminded me more of Peloponisos, and Cyprus. But they would not sound "alien" anywhere in Greece, especially in rural areas where "pitch accent" still survives.
    That’s great, thanks.
    I’m not “technically” Griko-Salentino, but I am Salentino (I think, LOL), so I share these results with you:




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    That’s great, thanks.
    I’m not “technically” Griko-Salentino, but I am Salentino (I think, LOL), so I share these results with you:



    Wow, this is very interesting, thanks for sharing. Which tool/calculator did you use to get this breakdown if I may ask? I'm embarrassed to admit that I only have my FTDNA results which unfortunately do not provide such level of detail.
    The link to the Aegean islands in your results is particularly interesting, as some of these areas are known to have colonized the southern part of the Italian peninsula in antiquity. However, it's worth noting that this also worked the other way around, especially in places like Kalymnos, Kythera and Peloponisos for example, as these areas received migrants from Italy during Roman and medieval times, also when they were ruled by Venice.

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    It’s a K36 oracle spreadsheet.
    It was part of an nMonte package download.
    The original link doesn't work anymore.

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    While we are waiting on some new data, here are the PCAs from the paper that compared Griko speakers from Puglia and Sicily with Italians, Albanians and Greeks of different regions.

    Btw, the continental Greek samples from that leaked image which was posted in another thread might actually come from this paper since the regional breakdown seems the same. The samples are small.





    This one includes all results from Italy, Albania, Greece and Cyprus, and median plots of each region:


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The Calabrian Grecanico speakers seem to have interbred so much they've wandered off on their own. If you could see the mountain tops in which they live you'd know why. :)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Calabrian Grecanico speakers seem to have interbred so much they've wandered off on their own. If you could see the mountain tops in which they live you'd know why. :)
    They seemed to really have wondered off. The Salentino Grikos plot right in with the other Southern Italians and Island Greeks.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    They seemed to really have wondered off. The Salentino Grikos plot right in with the other Southern Italians and Island Greeks.
    That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.

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