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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.
    It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.
    I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

    All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

    All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

    While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.
    Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

    Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

    Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.
    Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.

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    I don't know about any other studies on Griko but this is the result of an Apulian from Brindisi a city near Grecia Salentina:

    Eurogens K15
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.88
    2 West_Med 17.78
    3 West_Asian 14.99
    4 North_Sea 11.89
    5 Atlantic 11.5
    6 Baltic 9.45
    7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
    8 Red_Sea 2.51
    9 Oceanian 1.39
    10 Amerindian 0.49

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 4.16
    2 East_Sicilian 5.98
    3 Greek_Thessaly 6.07
    4 South_Italian 6.73
    5 Greek 6.88
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 7
    7 Ashkenazi 7.56
    8 West_Sicilian 8.97
    9 Tuscan 10.96
    10 Italian_Jewish 11.45
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 12.95
    12 Algerian_Jewish 13.13
    13 Bulgarian 13.49
    14 Romanian 15.67
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 16.62
    16 North_Italian 16.73
    17 Cyprian 17.13
    18 Libyan_Jewish 17.24
    19 Serbian 19.2
    20 Turkish 19.44

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 66.9% Central_Greek + 33.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.32
    2 53.6% Greek_Thessaly + 46.4% South_Italian @ 3.36
    3 77.3% Greek_Thessaly + 22.7% Cyprian @ 3.56
    4 94.8% Central_Greek + 5.2% Ukrainian @ 3.76
    5 94.7% Central_Greek + 5.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.76
    6 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Moldavian @ 3.78
    7 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Estonian @ 3.8
    8 96% Central_Greek + 4% Lithuanian @ 3.8
    9 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Hungarian @ 3.8
    10 95.3% Central_Greek + 4.7% South_Polish @ 3.83
    11 88.9% Central_Greek + 11.1% Bulgarian @ 3.83
    12 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Croatian @ 3.86
    13 90.9% Central_Greek + 9.1% Romanian @ 3.87
    14 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Southwest_Russian @ 3.87
    15 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Finnish @ 3.88
    16 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Polish @ 3.88
    17 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Belorussian @ 3.88
    18 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.88
    19 96.4% Central_Greek + 3.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.9
    20 96.3% Central_Greek + 3.7% Swedish @ 3.9

    Dodecad K12b
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 34
    2 Atlantic_Med 26.6
    3 North_European 17.8
    4 Southwest_Asian 10.88
    5 Gedrosia 7.58
    6 Northwest_African 2.49
    7 East_Asian 0.66

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.92
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.2
    3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.52
    4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.16
    5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 8.53
    6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.57
    7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.6
    8 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.05
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13
    10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.17
    11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 15.37
    12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 17.3
    13 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 17.82
    14 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.52
    15 Romanians (Behar) 18.81
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.62
    17 Cypriots (Behar) 20.26
    18 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.26
    19 Turks (Behar) 22.06
    20 Lebanese (Behar) 23.75

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 65% Cypriots (Behar) + 35% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.58
    2 66.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.72
    3 66.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.74
    4 66.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.1% English (Dodecad) @ 1.76
    5 68.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.5% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.79
    6 68% Cypriots (Behar) + 32% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.82
    7 66.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.84
    8 68.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.6% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 1.89
    9 67.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.94
    10 68.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 1.94
    11 67.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.4% British (Dodecad) @ 2.17
    12 76% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 24% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.2
    13 67.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.24
    14 77.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.48
    15 92.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.53
    16 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.58
    17 74.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.4% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.59
    18 92.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.6% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.65
    19 76.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 23.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.66
    20 88.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.69

    Seems very close to Greek Mainlanders. He is very close to my results as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.
    It is today, but that wasn't always the case.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It is today, but that wasn't always the case.


    Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN
    9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN
    9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.
    I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).

    ... not so fast :)

    Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

    because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

    I guess it depends on who you ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... not so fast :)

    Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

    because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

    I guess it depends on who you ask.
    But are they white?

    BTW doesn't Italian put adjectives after the subject so should it not have been Monteaspro like Montenegro?

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    Should Would Could ...
    It doesn’t matter.

    i can say:
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    Antica Grecia

    Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Should Would Could ...
    It doesn’t matter.

    i can say:
    Grecia Antica
    Antica Grecia

    Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)
    In Greek it is preferred to have the adjective before the subject but it can be be the other way around if it is used for emphasis.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Spectacular Spectacle of Griko Celebration of the Year
    ... is considered as the Anthem of the Grikos ...
    (Salento - August 2019)




    and: Aremu - Elisa in Griko
    https://youtu.be/51WAPp51ZAc

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    I read about the Griko people years ago and had the chance to drop by Salento while touring southern Italy. Disappointingly all of the Griko people seem to now speak only Italian, with the older Griko language exclusively maintained by the older generation as an in-home dialect. I hypothesize they would still show up as mainly Greek with some Italian and Turkish on genetic tests.

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    some more Salento (me :) results:














    (undetermined) That’s where I get my Pizzica Superpower/ Taranta Senses!






    Last edited by Salento; 02-09-19 at 07:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

    All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

    Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?
    That's interesting.

    Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
    Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area.

    Distance to: I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    9.81282834 Ashkenazi
    10.58188547 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.13472945 Greek_Crete
    12.01633658 Italy_Calabria
    12.25316808 Italy_Apulia
    12.72192065 Italy_Sicily
    12.85049439 Italy_Campania
    13.41035421 Greek

    Maybe it's this one?

    Or this?
    Distance to: I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    12.51731201 Sephardic_Jews
    13.60231966 Ashkenazi
    14.18309521 Italy_Calabria
    14.29497814 Ashkenazy_Jews
    14.44845666 Morocco_Jews
    14.65609041 Italy_Campania
    16.09613944 Italy_Sicily

    I wonder if there's a difference in quality? Why, otherwise, do they talk about only one such sample?

    As for "Roman Era" samples, as I said, we only have one, and the sample is French like.

    If Duarte reads this perhaps he'll check if there are other "Roman Era" samples from Empuries.

    Also, I'm not sure where the Mycenaeans plot there, although I would guess probably within the Aegean Bronze Age cluster somewhere.

    One of the flaws in Dodecad 12b, and all calculators have them, is that it has difficulty distinguishing between Southern Italians/Aegean Greeks/European Jews.

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    Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.

    The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 17-02-20 at 23:26. Reason: additional information

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Johane Derite: It has, I was in Sicily this past Summer. The Albanians that settled in Sicily, and the rest of Italy, were Eastern Orthodox in union with the Patriarch of Constantinopile. Their Liturgy thus is the Byzantine-Rite. In Sicily, and rest of Italy, they re-entered communion with Rome and still follow the Byzantine-Rite Litugry. The Eparchy of Piana Degli Albanesi part of the Italian-Albanaian Catholic Church and follows the classical Byzantine Rite in its Liturgy using both Greek and Albanian languages. The towns in Sicily were this is still used are Contessa Entellina, Santa Christina Gela and Palazzo Adriano (Which I visited since my Mothers father was born there, baptized in Roman-Latin Rite Parish). My Mothers Great Grandfather however, on her mothers side was baptized in the Byzantine Rite Church which was the opposite side the town square.

    The Eparchy of Lungro in Calabria is where the Bishop governs the Byzatine Rite for all Italians of Albanian ancestry from Calabria to Naples. Their is also a Monastery in Rome where Eastern Rite Bishop governs the Italo-Albanians around Rome and surrounding Regions there.
    Very interesting, thanks for the information. Do you know if there are any publications or academic papers dealing with this issue specifically?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela this Classical Greek sample seem to be more southern shifted than the Myceanean ones or is it just me?
    I'm going to give this another try, both because my answer to you was rather perfunctory and because it's a puzzle, and I like to try to answer puzzles. :)

    In the part of the Supplement dedicated to Empuries, they talk about three Empuries 2 samples, or samples which carry Mycenaean like ancestry, and all carry Ydna J. (Empuries was settled by Greeks from Phocaea in 575 BCE.)

    18205 300-100 BCE labeled Hellinistic
    18208 370-204 BCE labeled Hellinistic
    18216 57-208 CE labeled Roman Period

    However, in the Tables there are two more Empuries 2 type samples, for a total of 5. They didn’t include the female samples with that profile, perhaps because given the males with that profile were all Ydna J the inferences were stronger?

    18215 400-350 BCE labeled Greek
    18338 100-200 CE labeled Roman Period

    Now there’s a correspondence between this data and the five samples in the PCA which you provided which land in the “Aegean Bronze Age” space.

    The PCA labels the sample closest to Sicily and almost out of that Aegean Bronze Age space Greek Empuries. So, I think that’s 18215.

    The samples labeled Hellenistic are clearly smack in the middle of that space. So those are undoubtedly 18205 and 18208.

    There’s no Late Roman sample which meets the Empuries 2 criteria, so that leaves us with two Roman period samples: 18216 and 18338.

    I’ve already run 18205 and 18208 (detailed results upthread), which both come out as closest to European Jews and Island Greeks and Southern Italians. Other calculators might be able to sort out that overlap between those groups.

    Unfortunately, I can’t find 18216 (a male sample), and 18338 (a female sample), nor the “Greek” sample, 18215 on the list of samples for which we have coordinates.
    Perhaps Duarte can help us out with coordinates, but there may be a problem, because I inquired about it before and I think he said it wasn’t possible.

    Anyway, the three samples the author was discussing as being “Mycenaean” like were all males, so my guess is that the “Roman Era” sample which lands within the Aegean Bronze Age space is 18216, which leaves 18338, a female sample, as the “outlier” or “atypical” sample.

    Until and if we get coordinates for these three samples, this other PCA from the sample is a bit helpful.
    It looks to me as if the “atypical” sample is much more Armenian Bronze Age like, even though it is still labeled Empuries 2 in the Tables. I’m not sure I’d agree with that, but without access to coordinates I don’t see how it could be tested.



    I really wish we could see what 18215 is like.

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    Johane: Not off the top of my head. Most of what you are going to find are articles from journals or publications that deal with Catholic Theology and the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome. From an historical perspective, It was the Council of Basel-Ferrera-Florence (1431-1449AD) that attempted to reunite Rome and Constantinople. Some Eastern Churches did in fact re-enter communion with Rome shortly thereafter, others have over the succeeding years.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecum17.htm

    http://www.katolsk.no/organisasjon/v..._italoalbanian

    A recent Vatican article on Pope Francis and Italo-Albanians from the Eparchy of Lungro in Consenza, Calabria. THe Lungro Eparchy governs some 30,000 Italo-Albanians from the regions of Abruzzo, Apugila, Calabria and Basilicata. The Eparchy of Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily governs some 23,000 Italo-Albanians there. There is also as I noted a Monastery in Rome that serves Italo-Albanians in Rome. All of these Italo-Albanian Catholics are part of the Byzantine-Greek Tradition. By that I do not suggest anything to do with ethnicity. The term Byzantine-Greek in this context is purely a Liturgical and Theological term.

    https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/n...niversary.html

    On another note, it was my maternal Great Grandfather (my mothers Mother's family) who was baptized in the Byzantine Catholic Church in Palazzo Adriano. Her Father was Roman-Latin Rite. Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a theological thread but I hope this helps.

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    Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Angela, they carried J2a? I thought there was only a R1b found. Otherwise other than that sample, the one close to Sicilians (the Classical one) I don't consider the other samples as a good source for Classical Greek DNA.
    Out of the five samples which are labeled Empuries 2 and which Olalde considers as "Mycenaean" like, all three of the men carry yDna J. They couldn't resolve it more than that, so I don't know if it's J2a.

    Until we get samples from Greece, mainland and islands, from the Classical Era, I don't think there's any way of knowing which of these Empuries samples are closest.

    I do wish we had coordinates for the three we are missing so we'd have a bit more data.

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    Duarte has kindly provided us with coordinates for two more of the Empuries samples.

    Distance to: I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)
    7.62002625 Morocco_Jews
    10.62696570 Sephardic_Jews
    13.44065436 Italy_Calabria
    14.30960115 Italy_Sicily
    14.89313936 Ashkenazi
    15.44070918 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.98748886 Greek_Crete
    16.03119727 Italy_Campania
    17.64413471 Italy_Abruzzo
    18.14439219 Italy_Apulia
    19.85592859 Nusayri_Turkey
    21.33929708 Cypriots
    21.53421366 Italy_Marche
    21.88000457 Turk_West_BlackSea
    21.88404213 Turk_Central_West
    21.90326811 Italy_Lazio
    21.94899087 Turk_Southwest
    22.00821665 Lebanese
    22.05038775 Greek_Cappadocia
    22.22957939 Turk_Northwest
    22.39646401 Greek
    22.47247650 Turk_Anatolia
    23.29326512 Turk_Central_East
    23.31757706 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    23.41663298 Turk_South


    Distance to: I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)
    7.62002625 Morocco_Jews
    10.62696570 Sephardic_Jews
    13.44065436 Italy_Calabria
    14.30960115 Italy_Sicily
    14.89313936 Ashkenazi
    15.44070918 Ashkenazy_Jews
    15.98748886 Greek_Crete
    16.03119727 Italy_Campania
    17.64413471 Italy_Abruzzo
    18.14439219 Italy_Apulia
    19.85592859 Nusayri_Turkey
    21.33929708 Cypriots
    21.53421366 Italy_Marche
    21.88000457 Turk_West_BlackSea
    21.88404213 Turk_Central_West
    21.90326811 Italy_Lazio
    21.94899087 Turk_Southwest
    22.00821665 Lebanese
    22.05038775 Greek_Cappadocia
    22.22957939 Turk_Northwest
    22.39646401 Greek
    22.47247650 Turk_Anatolia
    23.29326512 Turk_Central_East
    23.31757706 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    23.41663298 Turk_South


    I think 14338 is definitely the one which is outside the Aegean Bronze box. It’s one of the women so perhaps admixed?
    Is it being pulled partly by the bit of North African admixture, maybe Carthaginian? It’s also being pulled by the Caucasus, though, which is why it probably ends up in Armenian Bronze Age despite the 4% Mozabite.
    Target: I8338_NE_Iberia_RomP(Empúries2)
    Distance: 3.1490% / 3.14896747 | ADC: 0.25x
    87.0 Morocco_Jews
    4.0 Mozabite
    3.6 Nganassan
    3.4 Sephardic_Jews
    2.0 Georgian_Adjara

    There’s something about Moroccan Jews. Could they be the closest of western Jews to the heavily EN like originals?

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