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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's the danger with using samples from really isolated areas in population genetics studies. Yes, you're getting "old" and "unmixed" dna, but you may also be getting such "drifted" dna that it's telling you nothing really useful about population movements and changes.
    It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It also suggest that Greeks in Bovesia and generally in Calabria are the genetic remnants of Magna Grecia and that Salentine Greeks migrated later, let's say during the Byzantine and Middle Ages maybe even later after the Ottoman conquest.
    I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

    All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.



    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see how that necessarily follows from these facts. We have yet to have a look at samples actually from Magna Graecia, much less different parts of it or from the Byzantine Conquest period, for that matter. We don't even have them from the relevant period from Greece itself.

    All we have is that "Greek" sample from Iron Age Spain at Empuries. I have no idea of his actual place of origin. I'll admit it would be interesting to see how the BOVA Calabrians plot with regard to him.

    While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    While it is true that we don't have ancient DNA for Magna Grecia, the fact that modern Salento Greeks are right on top of modern Southern Italians and Island Greeks and close to Continental Greeks, either means that they intermarried with Southern Italians and or migrated from the Greek Islands relatively late.
    Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

    Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Or, they're just local people living in villages which didn't give up the language that everyone in Southern Italy spoke at one time.

    Some of my husband's Calabrian ancestors lived in villages which spoke a form of Greek until the 1600s.
    Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.

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    I don't know about any other studies on Griko but this is the result of an Apulian from Brindisi a city near Grecia Salentina:

    Eurogens K15
    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.88
    2 West_Med 17.78
    3 West_Asian 14.99
    4 North_Sea 11.89
    5 Atlantic 11.5
    6 Baltic 9.45
    7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
    8 Red_Sea 2.51
    9 Oceanian 1.39
    10 Amerindian 0.49

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 4.16
    2 East_Sicilian 5.98
    3 Greek_Thessaly 6.07
    4 South_Italian 6.73
    5 Greek 6.88
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 7
    7 Ashkenazi 7.56
    8 West_Sicilian 8.97
    9 Tuscan 10.96
    10 Italian_Jewish 11.45
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 12.95
    12 Algerian_Jewish 13.13
    13 Bulgarian 13.49
    14 Romanian 15.67
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 16.62
    16 North_Italian 16.73
    17 Cyprian 17.13
    18 Libyan_Jewish 17.24
    19 Serbian 19.2
    20 Turkish 19.44

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 66.9% Central_Greek + 33.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.32
    2 53.6% Greek_Thessaly + 46.4% South_Italian @ 3.36
    3 77.3% Greek_Thessaly + 22.7% Cyprian @ 3.56
    4 94.8% Central_Greek + 5.2% Ukrainian @ 3.76
    5 94.7% Central_Greek + 5.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.76
    6 93.2% Central_Greek + 6.8% Moldavian @ 3.78
    7 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Estonian @ 3.8
    8 96% Central_Greek + 4% Lithuanian @ 3.8
    9 93.9% Central_Greek + 6.1% Hungarian @ 3.8
    10 95.3% Central_Greek + 4.7% South_Polish @ 3.83
    11 88.9% Central_Greek + 11.1% Bulgarian @ 3.83
    12 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% Croatian @ 3.86
    13 90.9% Central_Greek + 9.1% Romanian @ 3.87
    14 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Southwest_Russian @ 3.87
    15 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Finnish @ 3.88
    16 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Polish @ 3.88
    17 96.1% Central_Greek + 3.9% Belorussian @ 3.88
    18 95.9% Central_Greek + 4.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.88
    19 96.4% Central_Greek + 3.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.9
    20 96.3% Central_Greek + 3.7% Swedish @ 3.9

    Dodecad K12b
    # Population Percent
    1 Caucasus 34
    2 Atlantic_Med 26.6
    3 North_European 17.8
    4 Southwest_Asian 10.88
    5 Gedrosia 7.58
    6 Northwest_African 2.49
    7 East_Asian 0.66

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Greek (Dodecad) 5.92
    2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.2
    3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.52
    4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 8.16
    5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 8.53
    6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 8.57
    7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 9.6
    8 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.05
    9 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13
    10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 13.17
    11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 15.37
    12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 17.3
    13 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 17.82
    14 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.52
    15 Romanians (Behar) 18.81
    16 Turkish (Dodecad) 19.62
    17 Cypriots (Behar) 20.26
    18 North_Italian (HGDP) 20.26
    19 Turks (Behar) 22.06
    20 Lebanese (Behar) 23.75

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 65% Cypriots (Behar) + 35% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.58
    2 66.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.72
    3 66.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.8% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.74
    4 66.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.1% English (Dodecad) @ 1.76
    5 68.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.5% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.79
    6 68% Cypriots (Behar) + 32% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.82
    7 66.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 33.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.84
    8 68.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.6% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 1.89
    9 67.7% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.94
    10 68.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.8% Irish (Dodecad) @ 1.94
    11 67.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.4% British (Dodecad) @ 2.17
    12 76% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 24% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.2
    13 67.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.8% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.24
    14 77.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 22.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.48
    15 92.9% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 2.53
    16 92% Greek (Dodecad) + 8% Makrani (HGDP) @ 2.58
    17 74.6% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.4% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.59
    18 92.4% Greek (Dodecad) + 7.6% Balochi (HGDP) @ 2.65
    19 76.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 23.3% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.66
    20 88.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.8% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 2.69

    Seems very close to Greek Mainlanders. He is very close to my results as well.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Here, I thought it was isolated to some remote villages, high in the mountains.
    It is today, but that wasn't always the case.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It is today, but that wasn't always the case.


    Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN
    9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post


    Loud, G. A.; Metcalfe, Alex (2002). The society of Norman Italy. BRILL. pp. 215–216. ISBN
    9789004125414. In Calabria, a Greek-speaking population existed in Aspromonte (even until recently, a small Greek-language community survived around Bova) and, even in the thirteenth century, this extended into the plain beyond Aspromonte and into present provinces of Catanzaro and Cosenza.
    I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I love it, Aspromonte, a mashup of Aspro - Greek for White and Monte - Italian for mountain :).

    ... not so fast :)

    Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

    because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

    I guess it depends on who you ask.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... not so fast :)

    Aspromonte = Rough Mountain

    because Aspro in Italian means “sour, harsh, rough, bitter uneasy, ...”

    I guess it depends on who you ask.
    But are they white?

    BTW doesn't Italian put adjectives after the subject so should it not have been Monteaspro like Montenegro?

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    Should Would Could ...
    It doesn’t matter.

    i can say:
    Grecia Antica
    Antica Grecia

    Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Should Would Could ...
    It doesn’t matter.

    i can say:
    Grecia Antica
    Antica Grecia

    Sometimes I can say whatever sounds better to me (orecchiabile)
    In Greek it is preferred to have the adjective before the subject but it can be be the other way around if it is used for emphasis.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Spectacular Spectacle of Griko Celebration of the Year
    ... is considered as the Anthem of the Grikos ...
    (Salento - August 2019)




    and: Aremu - Elisa in Griko
    https://youtu.be/51WAPp51ZAc

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    I read about the Griko people years ago and had the chance to drop by Salento while touring southern Italy. Disappointingly all of the Griko people seem to now speak only Italian, with the older Griko language exclusively maintained by the older generation as an in-home dialect. I hypothesize they would still show up as mainly Greek with some Italian and Turkish on genetic tests.

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    some more Salento (me :) results:














    (undetermined) That’s where I get my Pizzica Superpower/ Taranta Senses!






    Last edited by Salento; 02-09-19 at 07:13.

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