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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Angela, why are we comparing ancient Empuries samples to current populations? Should we not be comparing them to other ancient populations of the approximately same era?
    We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like".

    So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.

    What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's interesting.

    Looking at the list of Empuries samples we have, only one is listed as Roman Era, and the sample is French like. Maybe we don't have all the Roman Era samples?
    Of the ones we have, only two plot in that general area.

    Distance to: I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    9.81282834 Ashkenazi
    10.58188547 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.13472945 Greek_Crete
    12.01633658 Italy_Calabria
    12.25316808 Italy_Apulia
    12.72192065 Italy_Sicily
    12.85049439 Italy_Campania
    13.41035421 Greek

    Maybe it's this one?

    Or this?
    Distance to: I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    12.51731201 Sephardic_Jews
    13.60231966 Ashkenazi
    14.18309521 Italy_Calabria
    14.29497814 Ashkenazy_Jews
    14.44845666 Morocco_Jews
    14.65609041 Italy_Campania
    16.09613944 Italy_Sicily

    I wonder if there's a difference in quality? Why, otherwise, do they talk about only one such sample?

    As for "Roman Era" samples, as I said, we only have one, and the sample is French like.

    If Duarte reads this perhaps he'll check if there are other "Roman Era" samples from Empuries.

    Also, I'm not sure where the Mycenaeans plot there, although I would guess probably within the Aegean Bronze Age cluster somewhere.

    One of the flaws in Dodecad 12b, and all calculators have them, is that it has difficulty distinguishing between Southern Italians/Aegean Greeks/European Jews.

    thanks for sharing angela
    very interesting
    and durate kudos for all your work


    also here is k12b values of i8215 the greek -

    tomenoble uploaded him to gedmatch back in the day :)

    greek,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.0 5,0.33

    he is different from the Hellenistic period i8205
    he is more closer to campania and calabria than ashkenazim jews ( although jews are still up there)

    Distance to: greek
    9.97631224 Italy_Campania
    10.38538866 Italy_Calabria
    10.51538397 Ashkenazi
    11.15872753 Ashkenazy_Jews
    11.33960758 Sephardic_Jews
    11.61857930 Italy_Sicily
    12.02919713 Italy_Abruzzo
    13.46134837 Morocco_Jews
    13.63947580 Greek
    13.89471482 Greek_Crete
    13.99689780 Italy_Apulia
    14.13668271 Italy_Marche
    15.38203283 Italy_Lazio
    16.08403917 France_Corsica
    16.78521075 Italy_Romagna
    18.83907774 Italy_Tuscany
    20.47784361 Italy_Emilia
    20.49139576 Cypriots
    20.60435148 Crimean_Tatar_Coast
    21.05207368 Italy_Liguria
    21.69961060 Albanian_Kosovo
    21.82012145 Greek_Cappadocia
    22.66870971 Albanian_North
    23.41968492 Italy_Lombardy
    24.48508117 Nusayri_Turkey
    Last edited by kingjohn; 23-02-20 at 20:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We don't have ancient Greek samples except for Mycenaeans and Minoans, and the paper has already told us that they were "Mycenaean like".

    So, I thought I'd see if maybe they came out Crete like since my hypothesis was that the Classical Era Greeks might have been more island Greek like.

    What other ancient samples should we do? We can divide them up and run them and see what happens.
    Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Do we have any Iberian and Gaul samples of the same era? Roman?
    I ran all the Empuries samples for another thread. One is Catalan like, one is French like, one rather Northern European. 18205,18208, and 18215 are "Mycenaean" like. Unfortunately, coordinates don't seem to be available for 18216, which is from the Roman Period. Then there's 18338, also from the Roman period, which is not quite in the Aegean Bronze Age cluster.

    I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1,4.28,0.00,0.00,0.16 ,51.43,35.70,0.98,0.00,0.00,0.00,6.48,0.97
    I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,1.20,0.00,2.31,0.00, 22.09,16.57,0.00,0.00,20.72,2.25,34.86,0.00
    I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1,10.54,1.38,0.82,0.29 ,39.66,38.43,1.88,0.00,1.52,0.00,3.76,1.71
    I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2,0.47,0.00,4.06,0.00, 36.68,5.45,0.00,0.00,12.64,0.00,40.71,0.00
    I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.77,0.00,1.74,0.0 0,48.23,30.32,0.21,0.60,0.79,0.17,11.18,0.00
    I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,4.28,0.01,0.00,2.2 1,53.30,32.63,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.31,6.28,0.00
    I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.96,0.00,0.00,0.0 0,56.45,25.38,5.94,0.00,0.00,0.00,5.27,0.00
    I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical,4.06,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,37.75,47.43,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,10.75,0 .00
    I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,6.42,0.00,0.00,2.2 2,55.45,29.43,1.50,0.00,0.00,2.76,2.22,0.00
    I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.5 3,55.32,34.65,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,8.18,1.31

    R850_Iron_Age_Ardea,7.30,0,4.52,1.08,21.26,10.54,0 ,0.43,14.77,0,40.10,0
    R851_Iron_Age_Ardea,1.59,0,1.39,0,49.28,24.97,0,0. 14,1.93,0,20.26,0.45
    R435_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Colombella,4.84,0.64,0.65 ,0,47.12,28.54,0.15,0,4.13,0,13.40,0.53
    R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata,6.45,0,3.03,0,33 .19,11.94,0,0,11.63,0,33.74,0.02
    R475_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,0,0,13.01,0,38.12,12.1 4,0.37,1.98,11.26,0,22.70,0.42
    R474_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,7.18,0.17,2.38,0,39.08 ,25.74,0,0,5.98,0,18.84,0.66
    R473_Iron_Age_Civitavecchia,1.01,0,0.68,0.15,47.26 ,22.79,0,0.21,7.39,0.21,20.17,0.34
    R1015_Iron_Age_Veio_Grotta_Gramiccia,1.56,0.19,2.8 5,0,47.15,21.66,0,0,5.46,0,20.85,0
    R1_Iron_Age_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro,5.02,1.78 ,1.33,0,35.08,26.46,0,0,5.43,0,24.50,0.40
    R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima,3.86,0.98,1.53,0.1 9,47.23,20.37,1.43,0,3.31,0,21.10,0
    R1021_Iron_Age_Boville_Ernica,2.11,0,1.96,0.60,47. 70,24.04,0,0,1.33,0,22.26,0

    If I run the Empuries samples against R850, the "Cretan like" Iron Age Roman sample, this is what I get. The distances for the "Mycenaean like samples" are 12, 15, and 18.

    Distance to: R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
    12.18268443 I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    15.50707903 18215_Greek_Empuries
    17.79902525 I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    46.47271995 I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    51.43860126 I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1
    52.38937774 I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical
    53.93703551 I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    54.07582824 I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1
    54.28650293 I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    55.26607368 I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    56.66914857 I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1



    Against R437, the sample which has about half its ancestry from more "eastern" sources than the other Iron Age Roman and Etruscan samples, the Empuries samples we're looking for are at a distance of 6,12, and 16.
    Distance to: R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata
    6.98619353 18215_Greek_Empuries
    11.86266833 I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    16.17631602 I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    34.53527327 I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    41.37854517 I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    41.74071394 I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    42.12581987 I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1
    42.32467365 I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1
    42.97417713 I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    44.20580505 I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    44.26086420 I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical

    One sample does better.

    Then, against the Latin sample R851, the Empuries ones which matter for this analysis are at 29,33,37.

    Distance to: R851_Iron_Age_Ardea
    11.87067816 I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    16.89187971 I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    17.02914854 I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    17.99480203 I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1
    18.60851149 I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    20.67380226 I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    25.17323181 I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1
    27.19949632 I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical
    29.31806269 18215_Greek_Empuries
    32.88316286 I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    37.18014658 I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

    Against R1016, the one "upper class" Iron Age sample: the Mycenaean like samples are at the bottom.
    Distance to: R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    14.70188083 I8209_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    20.12314588 I8211_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    20.71329525 I8210_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    21.66394470 I8344_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    21.95384704 I8202_NE_Iberia_RomP_Empuries1
    23.20906719 I8341_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1
    25.16385702 18215_Greek_Empuries
    27.12510461 I8206_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries1
    28.74794427 I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    30.75085202 I8212_NE_Iberia_Greek_Empuries1_atypical
    33.98077692 I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2

    Or, we could do it another way. Run each Empuries sample against all the ancient samples. Now that Vahaduo has added all our coordinates under K12b, it's easy.
    Distance to: I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
    10.41409622 R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
    10.42940075 R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    11.12061149 R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.17104740 R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    11.54777901 R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    11.71939418 R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
    12.18268443 R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
    12.46934641 R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    12.49862392 R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    12.52843167 R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    12.54786834 R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
    12.57320166 R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    12.94739356 R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
    12.97422059 R81_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
    13.34426843 R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
    13.35137821 R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    13.41112225 R66_Imperial_Era_ANAS
    13.41316890 R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    13.42639937 R34_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
    13.52872130 R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    13.68587593 R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
    13.80433990 R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
    13.95713438 R123_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce
    14.02574775 R1545_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
    14.05658920 R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis


    You can do all the others the same way and see if there are differences, but I doubt they'll be really different.

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