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Thread: Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Any DNA studies on the Greko and Griko of Calabria and Puglia respectively?

    It would be interesting to also be able to determine any genetic drift from mainland Greece and the dates of Greek migrations into Southern Italy.

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    The best ones are:

    1- https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...-01802-4#Sec16
    2- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/

    However, mainland Greece differs significantly from Greek islands. The articles suggest that the various waves of migration and settlement have had a huge impact on the ancestry of all continental Greece, to the point that it now clusters closer to the rest of the Balkans, most notably Albanians, than to Greek islands and South Italy.
    Last edited by Ownstyler; 24-04-19 at 05:25.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Still 75% similar to the Mycenaeans, for all of that.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well it may be a tough call. Southern Italy has a lot of affinity with Greece in terms of genes but a lot of it could be due to common ancient ancestors and a lot of it could be from the colonies. We need more samples as well as more studies to unravel things
    Last edited by davef; 24-04-19 at 06:51.
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.

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    5 out of 7 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I only brought up what the papers concluded in reference to the question of the OP. I don't see how Myceneans are relevant here.
    It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.

    There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age.

    The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.


    Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.

    There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age.

    The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.


    Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.

    I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.

    The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's relevant because it seems to be the mission of Albanians to constantly bring up, to the point of absurdity, how "mixed" modern Greeks are with Albanians and Vlachs, and Slavs.

    There have doubtless been changes in mainland Greece since the days of the Mycenaeans, the first speakers of Greece. There have been changes in most of Europe since the Bronze Age.

    The fact remains, much as it might not please certain people, that most of their ancestry hasn't changed all that much since those days.


    Of course, my comments are not directed to you personally.


    The closest Greek populations to ancient Greeks are people of Islands. The difference between people of Islands and mainland Greeks is so great autosomal genetically, as they were two separate populations. Island Greeks are close to Sicilians and South Italians, where mainland Greeks are close to Balkan. Don't you think something happened to Mainland Greeks for these huge differences.?


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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.

    The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?
    The Reich Lab in the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans came up with that figure.

    I am not, by the way, going to relitigate that paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    I brought it up because OP was looking specifically for island vs. continental Greeks in comparison to South Italians, and that is what the studies concluded. I also thought this distinction was a commonly accepted consensus by now.

    The admixture of continental Greeks is an interesting topic though. May I know who calculated the 75% similarity with Myceneans?
    Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.
    That's indeed the case.

    "The first to colonise Southern Italy were the Euboeans, who with the move to Pithecusae (on the isle of Ischia), founded a series of cities in that region. The second city that they founded was Cumae, nearly opposite Ischia. The colonists from Cumae founded Zancle in on Sicily, and nearby on the opposite coast, Rhegium. Further, the Euboeans founded Naxos, which became the base for the founding of the cities of Leontini, Tauromenion and Catania. In this effort they were accompanied by small numbers of Dorians and Ionians; the Athenians had notably refused to take part in the colonisation.[quotes 1]The strongest of the Sicilian colonies was Syracuse, an 8th-century B.C. colony of the Corinthians. Colonists of that same period from Achaea founded the cities of Sybaris and Croton in the Gulf of Taranto but also in the Metapontum in the same district. In the same area, refugees from Sparta founded Taranto which evolved into one of the most powerful cities in the area. Other Greek states that founded cities in Southern Italy were Megara, which founded Megara Hyblaea, and Selinous; Phocaea, which founded Elea; Rhodes, which founded Gelatogether with the Cretans and Lipari together with Cnidus, even as the Locrians founded Epizephyrean Locris.[1]
    Many cities in the region became in turn metropoles for new colonies such as the Syracusans, who founded the city of Camarina in the south of Sicily; or the Zancleans, who led the founding of the colony of Himera. Likewise Naxos, which we see taking further part in the founding of many colonies while the city of Sybarisfounded the colony of Poseidonia to its north. The city of Gela which was a colony of Rhodes and Crete founded its own colony, Acragas.[quotes 2]"


    I know the Griko dialect is considered to descend partly from Doric Greek, and the Salento was indeed settled by Doric speakers. However, the toe of Calabria, where Greko is still spoken, was not. I know the two dialects are slightly different, but I wonder if the Greko or Grecanico of Calabria is less Doric influenced.

    If both are equally influenced by Doric, it might point to perhaps a Byzantine origin rather than an ancient Greek origin?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Reich Lab in the paper on the Mycenaeans and Minoans came up with that figure.
    I assume you mean this one: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310#f3. I don't see that figure anywhere. Can you find it?

    Anyway, it should not matter because the fst calculations for Myceneans, show the smallest distance with modern samples from Greece, Cyprus, Albania and Italy (0.009). It is not clear which one is closest. They do not show that modern continental Greeks are closer to Myceneans than Albanians or Italians are. So similarity to Myceneans is irrelevant to the idea of continuity that you are upholding.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Actually, the reason that I brought up mainland Greece rather than the islands is that a lot of the colonies in Southern Italy hail from mainland Greece.
    They could be. Only the modern day populations do not provide evidence for genetic kinship, but ancient samples from South Italy and mainland Greece might.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's indeed the case.

    "The first to colonise Southern Italy were the Euboeans, who with the move to Pithecusae (on the isle of Ischia), founded a series of cities in that region. The second city that they founded was Cumae, nearly opposite Ischia. The colonists from Cumae founded Zancle in on Sicily, and nearby on the opposite coast, Rhegium. Further, the Euboeans founded Naxos, which became the base for the founding of the cities of Leontini, Tauromenion and Catania. In this effort they were accompanied by small numbers of Dorians and Ionians; the Athenians had notably refused to take part in the colonisation.[quotes 1]The strongest of the Sicilian colonies was Syracuse, an 8th-century B.C. colony of the Corinthians. Colonists of that same period from Achaea founded the cities of Sybaris and Croton in the Gulf of Taranto but also in the Metapontum in the same district. In the same area, refugees from Sparta founded Taranto which evolved into one of the most powerful cities in the area. Other Greek states that founded cities in Southern Italy were Megara, which founded Megara Hyblaea, and Selinous; Phocaea, which founded Elea; Rhodes, which founded Gelatogether with the Cretans and Lipari together with Cnidus, even as the Locrians founded Epizephyrean Locris.[1]
    Many cities in the region became in turn metropoles for new colonies such as the Syracusans, who founded the city of Camarina in the south of Sicily; or the Zancleans, who led the founding of the colony of Himera. Likewise Naxos, which we see taking further part in the founding of many colonies while the city of Sybarisfounded the colony of Poseidonia to its north. The city of Gela which was a colony of Rhodes and Crete founded its own colony, Acragas.[quotes 2]"


    I know the Griko dialect is considered to descend partly from Doric Greek, and the Salento was indeed settled by Doric speakers. However, the toe of Calabria, where Greko is still spoken, was not. I know the two dialects are slightly different, but I wonder if the Greko or Grecanico of Calabria is less Doric influenced.

    If both are equally influenced by Doric, it might point to perhaps a Byzantine origin rather than an ancient Greek origin?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_dialect
    Any idea where the Doric settlers were from? Possibly Messinia and Laconia in the Peloponnese? The Tsakonians still speak a form of Doric.

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    Griko Salentino video.
    Greek speakers comments are welcomed, figure out from which part of Greece the Griko resembles the most.
    My Town is not part of Grecia-Salentina and we speak an Italic dialect, I don’t understand it at all. :)





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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post


    The closest Greek populations to ancient Greeks are people of Islands. The difference between people of Islands and mainland Greeks is so great autosomal genetically, as they were two separate populations. Island Greeks are close to Sicilians and South Italians, where mainland Greeks are close to Balkan. Don't you think something happened to Mainland Greeks for these huge differences.?


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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Any idea where the Doric settlers were from? Possibly Messinia and Laconia in the Peloponnese? The Tsakonians still speak a form of Doric.
    You can cross reference using this and the list of colonies.



    If I'm getting it right, Siracusa got its Doric from Corinth, refugees from Sparta settled Tarentum, Megara founded Selinous, Rhodes founded Gela and so on.

    @Ownstyler,
    Well, maybe I "was" speaking to you. You think that's the way to come to a conclusion, i.e. use the statistical tool, in this case fst, which supports your preferred result, and forget all the other measures? They all have their uses. Fst is not necessarily the best.

    Forget it. There's no rational, objective debate possible with Albanians on these matters. Think what you want. Just don't expect the rest of the world to agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    @Ownstyler,
    Well, maybe I "was" speaking to you. You think that's the way to come to a conclusion, i.e. use the statistical tool, in this case fst, which supports your preferred result, and forget all the other measures? They all have their uses. Fst is not necessarily the best.

    Forget it. There's no rational, objective debate possible with Albanians on these matters. Think what you want. Just don't expect the rest of the world to agree.
    Angela, I stated what seems to be an academic consensus, and I honestly thought most people here accept. I brought two initial sources. I quoted the part of the source you mentioned (and possibly misquoted) that referred to what we were discussing. Now you refuse to provide any explanations for your statements (still not sure where the 75% came from). It is the second time you withdraw from a completely civil argument with me. I am not the irrational one here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Well it may be a tough call. Southern Italy has a lot of affinity with Greece in terms of genes but a lot of it could be due to common ancient ancestors and a lot of it could be from the colonies. We need more samples as well as more studies to unravel things
    In Salento (South Puglia), there were two types of Greek Colonists.

    Ancient Greeks/Hellenics (Magna Grecia, about 8th and 7th centuries BC), and and Medieval Greeks (15th century AD, refugees from the Ottoman expansion in the Balkans).

    Because of the Gap in time these Colonists could be genetically different.

    Last edited by Salento; 25-04-19 at 16:43.

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    From the first referenced paper:

    While Albanian-speaking Arbereshe trace their recent genetic ancestry to the Southern Balkans, the Greek-speaking communities of both Apulia (Griko) and Calabria (Grecani) show no clear signs of a recent (i.e. from the late Middle Ages) continental Greek origin, instead resembling the ‘continuum’ populations of Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands (Fig. 3, Supplementary Table S5, Supplementary Fig. S7, Supplementary Information).


    I would probably understand a lot more of the Greek dialects of the Salento and Calabria Greeks if I saw it written, for example the lyrics of their songs.

    There was a music group that sang in Greko.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    In Salento (South Puglia), there were two types of Greek Colonists.

    Ancient Greeks/Hellenics (Magna Grecia, about 8th and 7th centuries BC), and and Medieval Greeks (15th century AD, refugees from the Ottoman expansion in the Balkans).

    Because of the Gap in time these Colonists could be genetically different.

    There were also quite a few Byzantine monasteries in the area during the Middle Ages but I don't think those contributed to the population genetics, unless the monks engaged in immoral activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    From the first referenced paper:
    While Albanian-speaking Arbereshe trace their recent genetic ancestry to the Southern Balkans, the Greek-speaking communities of both Apulia (Griko) and Calabria (Grecani) show no clear signs of a recent (i.e. from the late Middle Ages) continental Greek origin, instead resembling the ‘continuum’ populations of Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands (Fig. 3, Supplementary Table S5, Supplementary Fig. S7, Supplementary Information).

    I would probably understand a lot more of the Greek dialects of the Salento and Calabria Greeks if I saw it written, for example the lyrics of their songs.
    There was a music group that sang in Greko.
    Kalinifta with Text:




    Another clear version of Kalinifta:



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    Good Night:

    How sweet and nice is this night,
    and I am lying down thinking about you
    and outside from your window
    I am giving you the pain of my heart

  22. #22
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Kalinifta with Text:





    Another clear version of Kalinifta:



    Kalinifta:
    Ti en glicea tusi nifta, ti en òria,
    c’evò ‘e plonno pensèonta ‘s esena,
    c’ettumpì sti’ fenèstrassu, agàpimu,
    tis kardìammu su nifto ti’ pena.
    Evò panta ‘s esena penseo,
    jatì ‘sena, fsichimmu gapò,
    ce pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
    sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
    C’esù mai de’ m’agàpise, òriamu,
    ‘e su pònise mai pus emena;
    mai citt’òria chìlisu ‘en ènifse,
    na mu pi loja agapi vloimena!
    Itt’ammàissu to mago, o gliceo,
    ‘en ghelà mai ja mena o ftechò,
    mentre evò ‘cì pu sirno, pu steo,
    sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
    T’asteràcia pu panu me vlèpune
    ce mo fengo krifizzu’ nomena
    ce jelù’ ce mu lèune: ston ànemo
    ta traùdia pelìs, i’ chamena.
    Ma ta jèjato evò ‘en ekkiteo
    ce sta lòjato ‘en vaddho skupò
    jatì panta ‘s esena penso
    sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.
    Ma ‘su plonni, teleste, ce ‘s ìpuno
    ste torì cino pu e’ gapimeno
    ti jelonta filì t’ammadàciasu
    ce se ‘ssifti sto’ pèttottu, ohimmena!
    Kalì nifta, se finno ce feo,
    plaja ‘su, ti ‘vò pirta prikò,
    ma pu pao, pu sirno, pu steo,
    sti’ kardia panta ‘sena vastò.

    ————-

    Buonanotte
    :
    Com’è dolce questa notte, com’è bella e io non dormo pensando a te e qui dietro alla tua finestra, amore mio, del mio cuore ti apro le
    ————

    Good Night:

    How sweet and nice is this night,
    and I am lying down thinking about you
    and outside from your window
    I am giving you the pain of my heart
    I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I will need to consult somebody that knows both languages.
    Thanks :)

    English Version:

  24. #24
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Greek transliteration:

    Τι εν γλυτσέα τούση νύφτα τι εν ωρια
    τσ εβώ ε πλώνω πενσέοντα σ εσένα
    τσ ετου μπει στη φενέστρα σου αγαπη μου
    της καρδίας μου σου νοίφτω τη πένα

    Λαλαλα λαλαλερο

    Εβω παντα σ εσενα πενσεω
    γιατί σένα φσυχή μου γαπω
    τσαι που παω που σύρνω που στέω
    στη καρδία μου πάντα σενα βαστω

    Λαλαλα λαλα λερο

    Καληνυφτα σε φηνω τσαι παω
    πλάια σου τι βω πίρτα πρικό
    τσαι που παω που συρνω που στεω
    στη καρδία μου πάντα σενα βαστώ

    Modern Greek translation:

    Τι γλυκιά είναι τούτη η νύχτα, τι ωραία
    και γώ ξαγρυπνώ και σε σκέφτομαι
    και κάτω από το παραθύρι σου, αγάπη μου,
    της καρδιας μου σου βγάζω τον πόνο

    Λαλαλα λαλα λερο…

    Εγώ σε σκέφτομαι πάντα
    γιατί σένα, ψυχή μου, αγαπώ
    και οπού κι αν πάω, που φεύγω, που στέκομαι
    στην καρδιά μου πάντα σένα βαστώ

    Λαλαλα λαλα λερο…

    Καληνύχτα σε αφήνω και φεύγω
    Κοιμήσου συ και εγώ πάω θλιμμένος
    και οπού κι αν πάω, που φεύγω, που στέκομαι
    στην καρδιά μου πάντα σένα βαστώ

    English translation:

    How sweet is this night, how beautiful
    And I am staying awake thinking of you
    And underneath your window, my love
    I pour out the pain in my heart


    La, la, la, la la, lero


    I am always thinking of you
    because you, my soul, I love
    And wherever I go, wherever I leave, wherever I stay
    In my heart, always, I hold you

    La, la, la, la la, lero


    Goodnight, I leave you and go
    You sleep and I will go (away) sad
    And wherever I go, wherever I leave, wherever I stay
    In my heart, always, I hold you

    I am sorry, my poetic skills are not as good as they used to be.

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