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Thread: Is there any linguistic evidence to prove Goths came from Scandinavia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv
    Sorry to say, but the examples you give don't prove much. The words and sounds you mention were all over Europe (as IE cognates) in proto-historic times.

    SOAP : Old English sape "soap, salve" (originally a reddish hair dye used by Germanic warriors to give a frightening appearance), from Proto-Germanic *saipon "dripping thing, resin", from PIE *soi-bon-, from root *seib- "to pour out, drip, trickle" (source also of Latin sebum "tallow, suet, grease").

    BURG : Old English burg, burh "a dwelling or dwellings within a fortified enclosure," from Proto-Germanic *burgs "hill fort, fortress", from PIE root *bhergh- "high," with derivatives referring to hills, hill forts, and fortified elevations. Cp. : Sanskrit b'rhant "high," brmhati "strengthens, elevates;" Avestan brzant- "high," Old Persian bard- "be high;" Greek Pergamos, name of the citadel of Troy; Old Church Slavonic bregu "mountain, height;" Old Irish brigh "mountain;" Welsh bera "stack, pyramid;" Old Gaulish brigas "hill".

    FORK : Old English forca, force "pitchfork, forked instrument, forked weapon," from a Germanic borrowing of Latin furca "two-pronged fork; pitchfork; fork used in cooking,".

    The velar sound in German "acht" was not specific to Germanic in pre-Roman days. See, eg, Old Gaulish ordinal numbers:
    - 6th suexos (modern Welsh chweched, Breton c'hwec'hved)
    - 7th sextametos (Old Irish sechtmad)
    - 8th oxtumetos (OIr ochtmad)


    When we talk about Germanic words, it is certainly clear that these words have Indo-European origin and we can find cognates in other IE languages.

    Soap was invented in the West Asia about 5,000 years ago, the first concrete evidence we have of soap-like substance is dated around 2800 BC in Mesopotamia. The word sapu with the similar meaning of "to bath" and "dyer" exists in Akkadian too and for this reason some linguists believe that the Latin word has an Akkadian origin: https://books.google.com/books?id=zI...page&q&f=false




    But the semantic development of the Germanic word shows that this word has a Germanic origin and Akkadian, Arabic, Hebrew and other Semitic words have been borrowed from Germanic.

    We see similar thing about Arabic burj "fortress, tower": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%AC Borrowed from Classical Syriac ܒܘܪܓܐ‎ (burgāʾ), from burg in Middle Persian, or from Ancient Greek πύργος (púrgos).
    About the Greek word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...#Ancient_Greek The word is first attested in Homer, Iliad 7.206. Believed to be a borrowed word, probably from Urartian (burgana, “palace, fortress”), Kretschmer suggested a borrowing from Proto-Germanic *burgz (“fortified town, hill-fort”).

    This word has certainly a Germanic origin, the ancient Urartian word is also a loanword from Germanic.

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    @hrvclv
    just to split hairs or to joke:
    concerning latin forms for 'soap', the "traditional" explanations were based on Celtic (Gaulish), and seemingly it was Celts who dyed their hair (not giving a red colour but rather a dirty blondish one). I was not aware of the same habit among Germanics, but who knows? ATW I'm not opening here a competition concerning the "paternity" fo some words or findings. We have better to do.
    But this is on the margin of this thread and I agree with your post #25

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    [/COLOR]
    When we talk about Germanic words, it is certainly clear that these words have Indo-European origin and we can find cognates in other IE languages.

    Soap was invented in the West Asia about 5,000 years ago, the first concrete evidence we have of soap-like substance is dated around 2800 BC in Mesopotamia. The word sapu with the similar meaning of "to bath" and "dyer" exists in Akkadian too and for this reason some linguists believe that the Latin word has an Akkadian origin: https://books.google.com/books?id=zI...page&q&f=false




    But the semantic development of the Germanic word shows that this word has a Germanic origin and Akkadian, Arabic, Hebrew and other Semitic words have been borrowed from Germanic.

    We see similar thing about Arabic burj "fortress, tower": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%AC Borrowed from Classical Syriac ܒܘܪܓܐ‎ (burgāʾ), from burg in Middle Persian, or from Ancient Greek πύργος (púrgos).
    About the Greek word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%8...#Ancient_Greek The word is first attested in Homer, Iliad 7.206. Believed to be a borrowed word, probably from Urartian (burgana, “palace, fortress”), Kretschmer suggested a borrowing from Proto-Germanic *burgz (“fortified town, hill-fort”).

    This word has certainly a Germanic origin, the ancient Urartian word is also a loanword from Germanic.
    When speaking of loans it's of some worth to compare not only phonetic roots but also closeness of meanings, I agree with you.
    But every word taken in account has to be well studied. the first example, 'sapo', doesn't prove contacts with Germanics; the 'sapu' of akkadian could be an hazard of not too close meanings from different origines: our 'sapo' could very well be issued from a Celtic 'sap' meaning (pine tree)"sap" (the same in english!) and the passage of significations from 'soap' to 'to bathe' (Akkadian) only a coincidence of hazards: we need to know what kind of "soap" used Akkadians to bathe. ATW other IE dialects could have had a common °sap- root too, without being proto-Celtic or proto-Germanic. I don't know.

    Concerning 'burg', as already said a *bh-r-gh root is common to all IE tongues, giving the most of the time a °b-r-g- cognate (Latin would give a °f-r-g- I think and Greek a °ph-r-g- . So the Greek 'pùrgos' is surely a loan of the same root through another language - ATW again, this very common IE root with close enough meanings could have existed long before Germanic and even proto-Germanic genesis occurred, and does not mark specific and tight links between well evolved Germanic and Iranian dialects; CWC came surely not far from the proto-Indo-Iranian dialects, and they could have left shared roots among proto-Germanic, proto-Balt and proto-Slav too,not speaking of other languages. I do'nt know the direction of borrowing between IE and Urartian, but it doesn't change the story, I think.
    What would be good would be to list some more words showing typical Germanic phonetic evolution and close enough meanings, on the ground of family, body, close environment, basic adjectives and verbs and so on, woth eastern IE languages. We know already that Germanic shows some closeness to Indo-Iranian, but it's also the case of Baltic and Slavic. Nothing too specific. But I could change opinion if I have some new evidences.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @hrvclv
    just to split hairs or to joke:
    concerning latin forms for 'soap', the "traditional" explanations were based on Celtic (Gaulish), and seemingly it was Celts who dyed their hair (not giving a red colour but rather a dirty blondish one). I was not aware of the same habit among Germanics, but who knows? ATW I'm not opening here a competition concerning the "paternity" fo some words or findings. We have better to do.
    But this is on the margin of this thread and I agree with your post #25
    Yes, "soap" also appears as "sapo" in Gaulish glossaries. "Sapo" is said (here and there) to be the original word from which the Latin and Germanic words were both derived. Pliny himself testified that soap was a Gaulish invention. But he also mentioned Germans using it. In my previous post, I chose to refer to what I thought was the most reliable academic source for the etymology of "soap". Considering Celts and Germanics rubbed shoulders for centuries in Central Europe, it's hard to tell which option to prefer, and who borrowed what from whom.

    I too have often read about Gauls "bleaching" their hair. Germans may well have done it as well. One fact is not exclusive of the other. And again, they were neighbors...

    Now that said, it is also true that the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians made a soap of their own. So did the ancient Egyptians and Phenicians (who sold and exported it). Whether the word travelled with the thing, I have no idea.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    When speaking of loans it's of some worth to compare not only phonetic roots but also closeness of meanings, I agree with you.
    But every word taken in account has to be well studied. the first example, 'sapo', doesn't prove contacts with Germanics; the 'sapu' of akkadian could be an hazard of not too close meanings from different origines: our 'sapo' could very well be issued from a Celtic 'sap' meaning (pine tree)"sap" (the same in english!) and the passage of significations from 'soap' to 'to bathe' (Akkadian) only a coincidence of hazards: we need to know what kind of "soap" used Akkadians to bathe. ATW other IE dialects could have had a common °sap- root too, without being proto-Celtic or proto-Germanic. I don't know.
    Concerning 'burg', as already said a *bh-r-gh root is common to all IE tongues, giving the most of the time a °b-r-g- cognate (Latin would give a °f-r-g- I think and Greek a °ph-r-g- . So the Greek 'pùrgos' is surely a loan of the same root through another language - ATW again, this very common IE root with close enough meanings could have existed long before Germanic and even proto-Germanic genesis occurred, and does not mark specific and tight links between well evolved Germanic and Iranian dialects; CWC came surely not far from the proto-Indo-Iranian dialects, and they could have left shared roots among proto-Germanic, proto-Balt and proto-Slav too,not speaking of other languages. I do'nt know the direction of borrowing between IE and Urartian, but it doesn't change the story, I think.
    What would be good would be to list some more words showing typical Germanic phonetic evolution and close enough meanings, on the ground of family, body, close environment, basic adjectives and verbs and so on, woth eastern IE languages. We know already that Germanic shows some closeness to Indo-Iranian, but it's also the case of Baltic and Slavic. Nothing too specific. But I could change opinion if I have some new evidences.
    The most important thing is the process of semantic development of words, of course both soap and burg have Indo-European origin but the meanings of these words have been developed in the Germanic language and they differ from their cognates in other IE languages, this process in the Germanic language can be enough reason that we consider both soap and burg as Germanic inventions. For example sugar is from Sanskrit and the Sanskrit word is from a proto-IE word with the meaning of gravel, this semantic development in Sanskrit can be a good reason to consider sugar as an Indian invention.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    'sapo' is not specific to Germanic, even with this specific meaning - 'burga' is troubling in some way, it's true-
    proto-Germanic came from an oder form of IE, at evidence - some central European dialects could have had a form very close with a close meaning too (look at Slavic, Celtic, close for meaning and but a bit less close for vowels) - some of these central dialects could be the IE provider in proto-Germanic. But the cristalization of Germanic took place later and elsewhere, and also their Identity Card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    'sapo' is not specific to Germanic, even with this specific meaning - 'burga' is troubling in some way, it's true-
    proto-Germanic came from an oder form of IE, at evidence - some central European dialects could have had a form very close with a close meaning too (look at Slavic, Celtic, close for meaning and but a bit less close for vowels) - some of these central dialects could be the IE provider in proto-Germanic. But the cristalization of Germanic took place later and elsewhere, and also their Identity Card.


    Different words with different meanings from the same proto-IE origin in other IE languages couldn't be certainly the source of ancient Greek, Urartian or Akkadian words, for example Irish bri means "hill" or Russian breg means "coast". It is not impossible that an ancient extinct language with almost the same sound shifts of proto-Germanic existed in the Middle East but how you can explain the existence of many Germanic loanwords from Middle Eastern languages? like silver from Akkadian or hemp from Sumerian (with Germanic sound shifts) or path from Old Persian, some linguists have tried to say that these words entered proto-Germanic through Scythian language but by comparing to Ossetian and other language which related to ancient Scythian, we already know that they were wrong, for example cognate of Old Persian path "way" in Ossetian is fændag "road", in fact p>f is one of the principal sound changes in Scythian.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The similarity between the names of Guti (modern Gotvand) and Goth can be a coincidence but what about the names of almost all other people who lived in the centeral and western Iran before the arrival of Iranian tribes in the 1st millennium BC? Such as Suedin (modern Suteh), Alman (modern Uraman), Asgard (modern Asgerd), Germani (modern Kerman), Semnonen (modern Semnan), Saksen (modern Saqqez), Danes (modern Danian), ...

    Search these words in Google Books.




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    I believe the original land of Germanic people was Asgard (Asagarta in Old Persian and Sagartia in ancient Greek sources), as you read about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard In the Prologue Snorri offers his own de-paganized interpretation of Asgard. As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Aesir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making an etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there. This interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I believe the original land of Germanic people was Asgard (Asagarta in Old Persian and Sagartia in ancient Greek sources), as you read about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard In the Prologue Snorri offers his own de-paganized interpretation of Asgard. As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Aesir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making an etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there. This interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.
    Sounds like totally speculative and creative folk etymology to me, typical of ancient authors before the development of modern science (and linguistics in particular)... especially with all this fanciful but unexplained etymology that would make men of Asia (and how precisely as- meant "men of Asia"? A mere similarity of sounds is no explanation, what's this morphological device to derive such a noun?) become aesir/áss meaning "deity", a quite unlikely semantic shift, but also one that does not make sense when you consider that áss is the Norse form, but not the Proto-Germanic one, which is best reconstructed as *ansuz and has obviously nothing to do with Asia, just as much as the other Germanic forms of the same word do not have anything Asia about it, such as Old English oos, Old Dutch ans, Old High German ans/ansi. There's a lot of fancy imagination in the conjectures of even modern linguists, let alone ancient authors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Sounds like totally speculative and creative folk etymology to me, typical of ancient authors before the development of modern science (and linguistics in particular)... especially with all this fanciful but unexplained etymology that would make men of Asia (and how precisely as- meant "men of Asia"? A mere similarity of sounds is no explanation, what's this morphological device to derive such a noun?) become aesir/áss meaning "deity", a quite unlikely semantic shift, but also one that does not make sense when you consider that áss is the Norse form, but not the Proto-Germanic one, which is best reconstructed as *ansuz and has obviously nothing to do with Asia, just as much as the other Germanic forms of the same word do not have anything Asia about it, such as Old English oos, Old Dutch ans, Old High German ans/ansi. There's a lot of fancy imagination in the conjectures of even modern linguists, let alone ancient authors.
    You should read about nasal infix in Indo-European languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_infix this 'n' has no role except changing the tense of words, I don't think that there is any linguist who denies the relation between Germanic and Indo-Iranian gods æsir and asura, the original first part of the word is As and it could be related to Asia. Scythians also called themselves As and their land Asia, the name of Ossetians, their descendents, is also from this word. As you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skj%C3%B6ldr In the Skjöldunga saga and the Ynglinga saga, Odin came from Asia (Scythia) and conquered Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The similarity between the names of Guti (modern Gotvand) and Goth can be a coincidence but what about the names of almost all other people who lived in the centeral and western Iran before the arrival of Iranian tribes in the 1st millennium BC? Such as Suedin (modern Suteh), Alman (modern Uraman), Asgard (modern Asgerd), Germani (modern Kerman), Semnonen (modern Semnan), Saksen (modern Saqqez), Danes (modern Danian), ...


    Search these words in Google Books.



    Striking at first sight. It deserves more attention; but we have other close tribes names in Europe with similarities which are sometimes misguiding. Have these tribes names been confirmed by diverse authors? ATW the tribes which transferred the bulk of the IE lexicon to pre-proto-Germanics - long before the Germanics could have had ancient remote contacts with South-Caucasus people at old times, wherever in details these contacts occurred and how (trade, mercenaries...). I concede you the Germanic-like phonetic evolution of some words are amazing. I keep an eye on your interesting posts. But I would prefer to have more elements in the diverse basic lexicons of the Near-East before to make a sound opinion.
    That said Grigoriev thought the archeology of Celts, Germanics and Balto-Slavs show strong links with Seyma-Turbino culture, and this last metallurgic culture for him came ultimately from North Near-East. But it comes in opposition to anDNA and Y-haplo's todate. Some slight elites late elites?
    I'll read the future developments the next satruday. Thanks.
    &: for the fun, 'Padan' evocates Northern Italy, does it not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Striking at first sight. It deserves more attention; but we have other close tribes names in Europe with similarities which are sometimes misguiding. Have these tribes names been confirmed by diverse authors? ATW the tribes which transferred the bulk of the IE lexicon to pre-proto-Germanics - long before the Germanics could have had ancient remote contacts with South-Caucasus people at old times, wherever in details these contacts occurred and how (trade, mercenaries...). I concede you the Germanic-like phonetic evolution of some words are amazing. I keep an eye on your interesting posts. But I would prefer to have more elements in the diverse basic lexicons of the Near-East before to make a sound opinion.
    That said Grigoriev thought the archeology of Celts, Germanics and Balto-Slavs show strong links with Seyma-Turbino culture, and this last metallurgic culture for him came ultimately from North Near-East. But it comes in opposition to anDNA and Y-haplo's todate. Some slight elites late elites?
    I'll read the future developments the next satruday. Thanks.
    &: for the fun, 'Padan' evocates Northern Italy, does it not?
    Padan means from padua province of Veneto
    .
    Venezian from Venice province
    Belun from Belluno province
    Trevisan from treviso province
    Veronese from verona province
    Rovigan from Rovigo province
    Vicentin from vicenza province
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    You should read about nasal infix in Indo-European languages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_infix this 'n' has no role except changing the tense of words, I don't think that there is any linguist who denies the relation between Germanic and Indo-Iranian gods æsir and asura, the original first part of the word is As and it could be related to Asia. Scythians also called themselves As and their land Asia, the name of Ossetians, their descendents, is also from this word. As you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skj%C3%B6ldr In the Skjöldunga saga and the Ynglinga saga, Odin came from Asia (Scythia) and conquered Northern Europe.
    The IE nasal infix was added to a root to form verbal actions in the present tense. That's not the case here. The lack of /n/ inSanskrit ásura has nothing to do wth Germanic having added a nasal infix to a noun. It instead comes from the regular change of syllabic /n/ into /a/ in Proto-Indo-Iranian, with the root *h2ens- reducing its vowel in the zero grade to a syllabic /n/ to form *h2nsuros and then *hásuras. That's a regular PII change found in many other words, too. The original root already had an /n/, it had nothing to do with an extra infix.

    How do you know Scythians called themselves As? Do you have a reliable source about that? AFAIK Ossetians do not call themselves Ossetians, their endonym is Iron, from the *arya- root, and the ancient Alans, probably one of the groups descended from Scythians, also derived their name from *arya- (the /rj/ > /l/ change is attested in some Ossetian dialects).

    And there is no reliably known common name for all Scythians, they probably identified with their diverse tribes and did not have one name for all of them. You still seem to believe a priori in this "secular/irreligious" interpretation of the old Indo-European religions, because only that could explain how you can easily accept the extremely counterintuitive and unlikely etymology linking aesir/asura ("deity") with men of Asia, when there is a much more semantically sensible explanation for those religious terms coming from *h2ens-, h2ensir-, "life force, energy".

    Honestly the idea that the word for "god, deity" in many IE languages would come from Asian men strikes me as fanciful at the very least, the credibility of such an association without very strong evidences is almost null. "Could be" is just not enough, a theoretical possibility doesn't even mean plausibility, let alone probability.

    These medieval sagas portraying ancient Nordic gods as human characters in epic tales should be read with many grains of salt, because they mostly date to post-Christianization times and are thus obviously "depaganized", with many characters that had once been seen as spiritual entities and deities being re-interpreted as mere heroes and important ancestors in their narratives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The IE nasal infix was added to a root to form verbal actions in the present tense. That's not the case here. The lack of /n/ inSanskrit ásura has nothing to do wth Germanic having added a nasal infix to a noun. It instead comes from the regular change of syllabic /n/ into /a/ in Proto-Indo-Iranian, with the root *h2ens- reducing its vowel in the zero grade to a syllabic /n/ to form *h2nsuros and then *hásuras. That's a regular PII change found in many other words, too. The original root already had an /n/, it had nothing to do with an extra infix.

    How do you know Scythians called themselves As? Do you have a reliable source about that? AFAIK Ossetians do not call themselves Ossetians, their endonym is Iron, from the *arya- root, and the ancient Alans, probably one of the groups descended from Scythians, also derived their name from *arya- (the /rj/ > /l/ change is attested in some Ossetian dialects).

    And there is no reliably known common name for all Scythians, they probably identified with their diverse tribes and did not have one name for all of them. You still seem to believe a priori in this "secular/irreligious" interpretation of the old Indo-European religions, because only that could explain how you can easily accept the extremely counterintuitive and unlikely etymology linking aesir/asura ("deity") with men of Asia, when there is a much more semantically sensible explanation for those religious terms coming from *h2ens-, h2ensir-, "life force, energy".

    Honestly the idea that the word for "god, deity" in many IE languages would come from Asian men strikes me as fanciful at the very least, the credibility of such an association without very strong evidences is almost null. "Could be" is just not enough, a theoretical possibility doesn't even mean plausibility, let alone probability.

    These medieval sagas portraying ancient Nordic gods as human characters in epic tales should be read with many grains of salt, because they mostly date to post-Christianization times and are thus obviously "depaganized", with many characters that had once been seen as spiritual entities and deities being re-interpreted as mere heroes and important ancestors in their narratives.
    I think you are right about proto-Germanic *ansuz, the original Germanic name of this land was probably Ansugarda, Old Persian Asagarta could be actually the Iranian form of this word, the interesting thing is that some people say that the Assyrian chief god Assur/Ashur doesn't relate to Indo-Iranian god Asura because the Old Akkadian name of this god is Ansur/Anshur, the name of Anshan (Persia in Sumerian and Akkadian texts) is believed to be from the name of this god and Akkadians adopted it from the eastern lands (in all probability from a Germanic people).
    Except ancient Greeks, I don't think that any other ancient people called this Part of Eurasia as Asia or any thing else, in fact the word Asia is a Greek invention and it really possible that it relates to the name of a major eastern Semitic and Indo-European god in this region, it is meaninglessness to say the name of this important God relates to a young Greek word.
    Anyway it seems to be clear Germanic sources just knew that Asgard was in Asia, not Europe, and they also knew that the original Germanic people who lived in Asgard, migrated from Asia to north Europe.

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    For what it's worth, there was a Gaulish god called Esus, Hesus, Haesus, Aesus, or Aisus - all spellings indifferently used by Lucan (1st century AD), who reported its existence, among others.

    See also :

    aisus represents the Gaulish divine name Aisus, recorded as Aisu-, Esu-, Esus, Aesu-, Aesus, Haesus, Hesus in inscriptions and in Latin manuscripts. The form in the present text is a masculine u-stem and stands in the vocative case; the vocative of u-stems was identical with the nominative. It is a widespread stem in religious terms and is attested in the languages of ancient Italy, e.g. Umbr. esono- 'divinus, sacer', esunu (neuter) 'sacrificium', Oscan Marruc. aisos (nom. pl.) 'dii', Paelig. aisis (dat. pl.) 'diis', Messap. aisa, which perhaps are loanwords from Etruscan, cf. Etr. aesar 'deus', aisuna 'divine'. Venetic aisu- 'god' also belongs here. Further, there is an interesting correspondence of these words in Old Norse, eir, f., which occurs as the name of a goddess of medicine, and derives from *aisa via *aizō.

    From : "A Gaulish Incantation in Marcellus of Bordeaux" by Gustav Must, Language, Vol. 36, No. 2, Part 1. (Apr.-Jun., 1960), pp. 193-197.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    For what it's worth, there was a Gaulish god called Esus, Hesus, Haesus, Aesus, or Aisus - all spellings indifferently used by Lucan (1st century AD), who reported its existence, among others.

    See also :
    Isus/Insus was the chief god of the Elamites, Susa, capital of Elamite and Persian empires, named after this god.

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    Are gods names of supposed same origins the better criteria to appreciate ethnies proximities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Are gods names of supposed same origins the better criteria to appreciate ethnies proximities?
    And that's even assuming that those god and tribal names are actually true cognates and not just sound-alikes, because mere similarities of sounds in some words are never a very scientifically reliable evidence of actual phylogenetic relationship between languages, particularly not in words that are unstable, easily replaced and easily transferred to other peoples.

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    I think there is rather a resemblance between Ancient West Germanic languages and Gothic.
    Gothic, if you read a little ,is not having some typical sounds for North Germanic languages.
    Goths and a part of Visigoths actually settled on the land of Romania and this is said in multiple historic sources.
    Also, Romania was named more than 200 years Gothia, or the country of the Goths.
    So we can clearly conclude that Romanians should have a lot if not most paternal lines from the Goths.

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    Btw, who were the Germanii that Cyrus defeated?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Btw, who were the Germanii that Cyrus defeated?
    I asked about it in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-was-Germania According to Herodotus, the Germanii were neighbor of Danes and people of Asgard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ancient DNA from Goths and other Eastern Germans shows R1b-U106 and I1.
    Not only this, but we've found I1-L1237 in Wielbark era in Poland (Wielbark being the cultural complex that the Goths, Gepids and Rugii were in), and mtDNA study of the same cultural complex showed a connection between the Jutland Iron Age and the Wielbark, especially among the males in the ancient samples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    For example mention some words from other languages in the north of Europe in Gothic, like from Finno-Ugric or Balto-Slavic, ...
    Not specific words, but an interesting read anyway:
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/06/pre...n-scandinavia/

    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    If anyone's interested, this is a very good paper about the Germanic ethnogenesis with an eastern focus:

    https://www.academia.edu/37471966/It..._300_BC_10_AD_


    The (likely) Gothic split can be seen in the gradual colonization of the Polish plain.
    Good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    The similarity between the names of Guti (modern Gotvand) and Goth can be a coincidence but what about the names of almost all other people who lived in the centeral and western Iran before the arrival of Iranian tribes in the 1st millennium BC? Such as Suedin (modern Suteh), Alman (modern Uraman), Asgard (modern Asgerd), Germani (modern Kerman), Semnonen (modern Semnan), Saksen (modern Saqqez), Danes (modern Danian), ...

    Search these words in Google Books.



    This is a leap, similar sounding or looking words do not necessarily equate a connection, this is a leap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I believe the original land of Germanic people was Asgard (Asagarta in Old Persian and Sagartia in ancient Greek sources), as you read about Asgard: https://pagan.wikia.org/wiki/Asgard In the Prologue Snorri offers his own de-paganized interpretation of Asgard. As-gard, he conjectures, is the home of the Aesir (singular Ás) in As-ia, making an etymological connection between the three "As-"; that is, the Aesir were "men of Asia", not gods, but the speakers of the original Germanic language, who moved from Asia to the north and intermarried with the peoples already there. This interpretation of the 13th century foreshadows 20th century views of Indo-European migration from the east.
    This sounds an awful lot like Thor Heyerdahl's stuff, which is unfortunate because well... y'know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Odin came from Asia (Scythia) and conquered Northern Europe.
    This again sounds like Heyerdahl stuff... which is unfortunate... because well... I won't go into it here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I asked about it in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-was-Germania According to Herodotus, the Germanii were neighbor of Danes and people of Asgard.
    Germanii and Germani are coincidences at best. Many names that Herodotus 1.125 mentioned cannot be identified, any that are identifiable ones are from parts of the Persian Empire, distances apart. His Germanioi were a reference to the inhabitants of Karmania/Carmania, a name of an Achaemenid satrapy. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Germani of the Gallic Wars. Again mentions of Asgard, and all sounds very much like Thor Heyerdahl... hardly credible.

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