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Thread: new Damgaard study on ancient Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Turks and Mongols

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    new Damgaard study on ancient Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Turks and Mongols

    The ancient Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Turks and Mongols are now in YFull! Here you can see their study sample IDs and YFull IDs with links to their YFull haplogroups, their mtDNA haplogroups (with links to Ian Logan's pages), and their Gedmatch IDs. (I extracted the data and uploaded them.) You can also see the sizes in gigabytes of the original BAM files, to get an idea of the coverage.

    Also, I've send some of these to Eurogenes to be plotted and so they can be analyzed in the various admixture tools.

    The study hasn't been published yet, so we don't know when or where they're from. We just have a couple of clues.

    http://open-genomes.org/analysis/Eur...dwJjPxknheyqi4

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    Boring study

    Why is aDNA moving so slowly?

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    What's with all the diversity of haplogroups in Tian Shan.

    Interesting too the Lchashen-Metsamor sample being I2-something, it's were the first transcaucasian spoked-wheel char is being found.

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    interesting to see that Z923991
    the hungarian Scythian score some iberian and huge italian
    in k36 as opposed to most steppe samples and the siberians one
    could it be a native panonnian who adopted Scythian culture ?
    he also score significant west med
    and no east central euro component in k36 as opposed to other steppe dudes
    Z923991 Elapsed Time: 7.54 seconds


    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 3.01
    Armenian -
    Basque 4.16
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 10.40
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French 4.10
    Iberian 13.76
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 38.20
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 7.02
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 6.61
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 12.75

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    interesting to see that Z923991
    the hungarian Scythian score some iberian and huge italian
    in k36 as opposed to most steppe samples and the siberians one
    could it be a native panonnian who adopted Scythian culture ?
    he also score significant west med
    and no east central euro component in k36 as opposed to other steppe dudes
    Z923991 Elapsed Time: 7.54 seconds


    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 3.01
    Armenian -
    Basque 4.16
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 10.40
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French 4.10
    Iberian 13.76
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 38.20
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 7.02
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 6.61
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 12.75
    If I consider that I (central-northern Italian) have 16.37% of Iberian and 22.75% of Italian (compared to its remarkable 38.20%!), I suspect that he is even a pure Roman or someone with very close Italic ancestors (parent , grandfather ... no further)

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    Would it be right to say that West Eurasian ancestry of proto Turks came from Scythians?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Would it be right to say that West Eurasian ancestry of proto Turks came from Scythians?
    I think much of it came from Scythians, but the Proto-Turks probably already had quite a bit of West Eurasian ancestry (taken from earlier steppe herders, many of whom were ancestors of Scythians, and perhaps also from Uralic and other language communities in the forest zone). I think the appearance of very high East Eurasian ancestry in some of the easternmost Scythians near the Altai, like Zevakino-Chilikta, Aldy-Bel and Pazyryk Scythians, indicates the very beginning of the east-to-west expansion of Proto-Turkic-speaking people, and when they had their real boom centuries later, in the Late Antiquity, they were probably very mixed already (but still mostly East Eurasian initially). However, very interestingly IMO, most of the early medieval Turks even in the north (Kazakhstan and Russia) showed not just the main West Eurasian components of Scythians, but also a quite notable presence of pre-IE Central Asian ancestry (Gonur_BA, Sarazm_Eneolithic etc.), so in my opinion it's possible that many of them followed a "southern" route across the Tian Shan and expanded northward after having absorbed local Scythian/Saka groups in Turan. That's what I can tell from the analysis of the aDNA in the region in and around Kazakhstan.

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    So it looks like Turkic people probably originated as a result of a mix between Eastern European Steppe descendants (minority) and Siberian-like East Eurasians (majority and origin of the Turkic language) Interestingly, as far as i know Turkic languages show much more affinity to Uralic languages than Indo-European. Why is that? Wouldn't you expect steppe part of ancestry to speak Indo-European and affect the language to make it more Indo-European like rather than Uralic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    So it looks like Turkic people probably originated as a result of a mix between Eastern European Steppe descendants (minority) and Siberian-like East Eurasians (majority and origin of the Turkic language) Interestingly, as far as i know Turkic languages show much more affinity to Uralic languages than Indo-European. Why is that? Wouldn't you expect steppe part of ancestry to speak Indo-European and affect the language to make it more Indo-European like rather than Uralic?
    I think, the only possibility without saying that R1a tribes were native Turkic speaker, and a possibility that was shown in writed history. Probably at some point, not sure when. A Turkish Confederacy lead by a Turkish Leader, defeated a Scythian-Iranian speaker Confederacy and killed the Scythian Leader. After this, the remnants of those Scythians would either flew West or enter into the rank of the Turkish Confederacy. After time, those guys lost their proper Scythian culture and language toward a Turkish one. The prevalence of R1a among Turkish people might just be that they were more numerous than native Turks, when the latter took power. When Temudjin federalized many tribes on his order, they probably were Mongol, but also Turkish, Tungustic and maybe Paleo-Siberian.

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    Maybe Turks are descendants of Seima-Turbino. Turkic mythology has a lot of metallurgy in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Maybe Turks are descendants of Seima-Turbino. Turkic mythology has a lot of metallurgy in it.
    Seima-Turbino is too old to be even Proto-Turkic. The closest would have been something Proto-Turko-Mongol, but it probably was not. I think there is higher chances that those guys spoked something Uralic than Altaic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Seima-Turbino is too old to be even Proto-Turkic. The closest would have been something Proto-Turko-Mongol, but it probably was not. I think there is higher chances that those guys spoked something Uralic than Altaic.
    I was thinking about ancestry-wise not language.

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