Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: Hittite, Luwic and Palaic people. What was their Y-dna?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    1 members found this post helpful.

    Hittite, Luwic and Palaic people. What was their Y-dna?



    What was the Y-dna of Anatolian IE people? What do you think? My guess is that it would be R1b-PF7562. This subglade split off from its sister L23 during the early bronze age. This correlate with the linguistic study over IE languages we have until today. This makes IE homeland somewhere in Caucasus , northern or southern whether. If I remember well there are genetic studies over the IE-Anatolians which show no genetic affinities with EEHG nomads. The contrary is shown in other IE branches. This will make R1b the original IE speakers, while the R1a needs an explanation how it got assimilated into IE linguistic world.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    I think the R1b explained history in Eupedia is wrong about R1b-Z2103. It has a Balkanic origin, and probably moved in Anatolia during the end of the bronze age circa 1200 bce with the so-called sea peoples.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    I find it unlikely that it will be anything but the same old J & G that was already found, but we'll see.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I find it unlikely that it will be anything but the same old J & G that was already found, but we'll see.
    Do you have any source or link about Hittites Y-dna? Did they found anything yet? As long as they were speakers of a very old IE language, I presumed that the Y-dna R1b was one of the main lineages among them. I pointed to the old PF7562.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Do you have any source or link about Hittites Y-dna? Did they found anything yet? As long as they were speakers of a very old IE language, I presumed that the Y-dna R1b was one of the main lineages among them. I pointed to the old PF7562.
    This paper had samples from Kalehöyük, one of the major Hittite sites after Hattusa:

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../6396/eaar7711

    3x J2a, 1x G2a

    The Greek paper had samples from Gondürle Hoyük, another major site which is a bit more western. The male was J1.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    What was the Y-dna of Anatolian IE people? What do you think? My guess is that it would be R1b-PF7562. This subglade split off from its sister L23 during the early bronze age. This correlate with the linguistic study over IE languages we have until today. This makes IE homeland somewhere in Caucasus , northern or southern whether. If I remember well there are genetic studies over the IE-Anatolians which show no genetic affinities with EEHG nomads. The contrary is shown in other IE branches. This will make R1b the original IE speakers, while the R1a needs an explanation how it got assimilated into IE linguistic world.
    they had every haplogroup that was already in europe found from neolithic times................these are H, R, T, G, I, E and others
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  7. #7
    Moderator Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends25000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    1,730
    Points
    27,644
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,644, Level: 51
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 1,006
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I think the R1b explained history in Eupedia is wrong about R1b-Z2103. It has a Balkanic origin, and probably moved in Anatolia during the end of the bronze age circa 1200 bce with the so-called sea peoples.
    R1b-Z2103 was the foremost Y-DNA haplogroup of the Yamnaya culture (at least its core settlements), it was already found even earlier in the Late Khvalynsk culture. So, I doubt its origin is Balkanic, or at least the specific group of Z2103 males that expanded to several other areas.

    As for the thread's main question, I find it very unlikely that the Hittites and other Anatolian IE speakers of the Middle-Late Bronze Age, with the cultures and states they are associated with (I stress that because I do not mean the Proto-Anatolian Indo-Europeans and other intermediary populations), belonged to just one or two major haplogroups. I also do not believe they were still mostly of Proto-Anatolian origin, quite on the contrary, I think the evidences point to a linguistic shift caused by elite dominance. So, I expect them to have a lot of J2a, perhaps some G2a, J1, G2b, J2B, R1b, even L (considering it was present in the neighbnoring Transcaucasia in the Early BA). I don't think their early ancestors replaced the local paternal lineages much, instead they absorbed many populations along the way and were probably not mostly "PIE-like" when they consolidated their Anatolian IE languages.

    Now, if you ask me what I think the major Y-DNA lineages of the Proto-Anatolian IE speakers were, since I still think it's more likely that they were somehow related to the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka expansion into the Balkans, I presume mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103? Probably) as well as I2 and G2 absorbed from EEF people... but anyone who's honest will tell you that we all just don't know, we can just conjecture. I think you may be onto something with the R1b-PF7562 assumption, it may even be ultimately wrong, but it sounds at least plausible.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I think the R1b explained history in Eupedia is wrong about R1b-Z2103. It has a Balkanic origin, and probably moved in Anatolia during the end of the bronze age circa 1200 bce with the so-called sea peoples.
    Not true, because it's of the West Asian variety. I would associate it with the Hattic-Kaskian branch.

    I now believe in a hybrid Anatolian hypothesis, by the way, with LPIE spreading to Sredny Stog with C-T (Urheimat in Central Anatolia, same area as the very old Catalhoyuk on the Konya plain and basically the bulk source of Danubian farmers in Europe). It explains so much, from the very early similarity with Kartvelian (presumably a Halafian East Anatolian variety that spread to Leyla Tepe and then Maykop) to the lack of a word for wheel and axle. I also think Steppe L23 didn't speak IE but a Dene-Caucasian language, perhaps literally proto-Dene-Caucasian. So, Yamnaya speaking Dene-Caucasian and Corded Ware speaking Indo-European. The main difficulties with the former (nobody doubts the latter, except for Carlos from indo-european.eu) are the Sino-Tibetan and Dene-Yeniseian language families. The former can be explained by Afanasievo (also true for Yeniseian), the Na-Dene part of the latter can be explained more controversially by a crossing of the Bering strait (can be seen by similarities between Nivkh and the rest of the Almosan language family, as well as of course that infamous North American R1b and also copper working suddenly appearing out of nowhere as part of the Old Copper Complex). North Caucasian language family would be K-A/Trialetian derived, itself with probable Yamnaya elements as shown by Eurogenes and others. Vasconic is obviously explained by this theory too, and Burushaski is the remainder.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    R1b-Z2103 was the foremost Y-DNA haplogroup of the Yamnaya culture (at least its core settlements), it was already found even earlier in the Late Khvalynsk culture. So, I doubt its origin is Balkanic, or at least the specific group of Z2103 males that expanded to several other areas.

    As for the thread's main question, I find it very unlikely that the Hittites and other Anatolian IE speakers of the Middle-Late Bronze Age, with the cultures and states they are associated with (I stress that because I do not mean the Proto-Anatolian Indo-Europeans and other intermediary populations), belonged to just one or two major haplogroups. I also do not believe they were still mostly of Proto-Anatolian origin, quite on the contrary, I think the evidences point to a linguistic shift caused by elite dominance. So, I expect them to have a lot of J2a, perhaps some G2a, J1, G2b, J2B, R1b, even L (considering it was present in the neighbnoring Transcaucasia in the Early BA). I don't think their early ancestors replaced the local paternal lineages much, instead they absorbed many populations along the way and were probably not mostly "PIE-like" when they consolidated their Anatolian IE languages.

    Now, if you ask me what I think the major Y-DNA lineages of the Proto-Anatolian IE speakers were, since I still think it's more likely that they were somehow related to the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka expansion into the Balkans, I presume mostly R1b-M269 (Z2103? Probably) as well as I2 and G2 absorbed from EEF people... but anyone who's honest will tell you that we all just don't know, we can just conjecture. I think you may be onto something with the R1b-PF7562 assumption, it may even be ultimately wrong, but it sounds at least plausible.
    On your first paragraph, I think you got me a bit wrong here. My point about Z2103 was that all Z2103 prezent today in Anatolia and Armenia is due to the migration of people from Balkans during the end of Bronze age circa 1200, recorded as sea peoples, aka 'Mushki , Phrygians, and even possibly partly Lydians. I know that Z2103 originated in Steppes, and we have found one from current northern Serbia circa old 2775 bce. I found a bit difficult that Z2103 was the Hittite R1b glade.

    My best candidate would be PF7562 because it split earlier from the L23. This coincide with the linguistic studies on Anatolian language. It did split from its mother language long before the rest of other IE languages. Looks like the best candidate for Hittites homeland would be Maykop culture. Maykop culture was the oldest known bronze age society, but not part of Yanmaya steppe world. This makes R1b- M297 the true proto proto IE people. Another thing important is that Anatolians hadn't any steppe autosomal heritage, which point further more for the Maikop's homeland.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    they had every haplogroup that was already in europe found from neolithic times................these are H, R, T, G, I, E and others
    Probably true. I know. My guess is what was the IE Y-dna of them. They were IE people and their ruling class should have been R1b-PF7562. This glade split earlier from other branches, soon after 4000 bce. It is the perfect candidate for the ruling class of Anatolia during the bronze age. The rest of Y-dna there probably were just subjugated by IE ruling class, as slaves and working class.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Not true, because it's of the West Asian variety. I would associate it with the Hattic-Kaskian branch.

    I now believe in a hybrid Anatolian hypothesis, by the way, with LPIE spreading to Sredny Stog with C-T (Urheimat in Central Anatolia, same area as the very old Catalhoyuk on the Konya plain and basically the bulk source of Danubian farmers in Europe). It explains so much, from the very early similarity with Kartvelian (presumably a Halafian East Anatolian variety that spread to Leyla Tepe and then Maykop) to the lack of a word for wheel and axle. I also think Steppe L23 didn't speak IE but a Dene-Caucasian language, perhaps literally proto-Dene-Caucasian. So, Yamnaya speaking Dene-Caucasian and Corded Ware speaking Indo-European. The main difficulties with the former (nobody doubts the latter, except for Carlos from indo-european.eu) are the Sino-Tibetan and Dene-Yeniseian language families. The former can be explained by Afanasievo (also true for Yeniseian), the Na-Dene part of the latter can be explained more controversially by a crossing of the Bering strait (can be seen by similarities between Nivkh and the rest of the Almosan language family, as well as of course that infamous North American R1b and also copper working suddenly appearing out of nowhere as part of the Old Copper Complex). North Caucasian language family would be K-A/Trialetian derived, itself with probable Yamnaya elements as shown by Eurogenes and others. Vasconic is obviously explained by this theory too, and Burushaski is the remainder.
    I thought the same about Kaskian, but I think Z2103 in Anatolia has a late bronze age origin which came via Balkans with the so called sea peoples, whose part were the Armenians too, 1200 bce. At this time we have a large mass of intrusion into Anatolia, which caused the crumble of Hittite hegemony over Anatolia.

    As for Basques, I think it is explained well till today. Their Y-dna is irrelevant. Autosomal component is strongly autochtonous there. Don't underestimate the importance of mt-dna. Our mothers are important too, especially at these Neolithic farmers of Iberia.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    This paper had samples from Kalehöyük, one of the major Hittite sites after Hattusa:

    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte.../6396/eaar7711

    3x J2a, 1x G2a

    The Greek paper had samples from Gondürle Hoyük, another major site which is a bit more western. The male was J1.
    Thank you for your post. Anyway, my thread here is about the Hittites ruling class. They were IE speakers, hence they most have been at least a minority of R1 people. The rest of haplos are irrelevant. They probably were just enslaved or exploited by the IE warrior elite. Just remember the bronze age society which was based in the so called, palace economy.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Piro Ilir's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-04-15
    Posts
    1,136
    Points
    6,045
    Level
    22
    Points: 6,045, Level: 22
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 2.0%






    Asko Parpola believes that the language of the Botai culture cannot be conclusively identified with any known language or language family. He speculatively suggests that the Proto-Ugric word *lox for "horse", (reconstructed on the basis of Hungarian ló, Mansi lū and Khanty law, all meaning "horse"), which is neither of Uralic nor Indo-European origin, nor it does closely resemble any of the words for "horse" from known Eurasian language families, is a borrowing from the language of the Botai culture. Compare Ket qɨ̄ĺa, Yugh χɨ̄ĺa, and Kottish harā, all of which derive from Proto-Yeniseian *χVr-, meaning “quick”. Note that there are no Proto-Uralic words which end in *r, and that *x never occurs in word-initial position.

    In my opinion R1a people weren't originally IE, but their language was a different one. The original language of R1a people got lost forever. They were probably the first horse riders. Then it was passed into the R1b tribes of southern Yanmaya (R1b-L23) and Maykop (R1b-PF7562).

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Thank you for your post. Anyway, my thread here is about the Hittites ruling class. They were IE speakers, hence they most have been at least a minority of R1 people. The rest of haplos are irrelevant. They probably were just enslaved or exploited by the IE warrior elite. Just remember the bronze age society which was based in the so called, palace economy.
    This is wishful thinking. Read the Iberia paper.

    No R1b in high status Maykop graves either, just J, G & L.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I thought the same about Kaskian, but I think Z2103 in Anatolia has a late bronze age origin which came via Balkans with the so called sea peoples, whose part were the Armenians too, 1200 bce. At this time we have a large mass of intrusion into Anatolia, which caused the crumble of Hittite hegemony over Anatolia.

    As for Basques, I think it is explained well till today. Their Y-dna is irrelevant. Autosomal component is strongly autochtonous there. Don't underestimate the importance of mt-dna. Our mothers are important too, especially at these Neolithic farmers of Iberia.
    But you're wrong. Anatolian Z2103 is far older than that, and it spread from the Caucasus as it is the West Asian variety. Your theory is wrong, so show some flexibility in changing it. There's no shame, I've changed a theory I held for a long time and was pretty confident in after the Maykop paper. The Anatolian Z2103 may have expanded in the Bronze Age, but it still goes back to that variety which spread south from the Steppe through the Caucasus mountain range.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I can't help but think that somehow you're going to relate this back to being Albanian too

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I can't help but think that somehow you're going to relate this back to being Albanian too

  18. #18
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,040
    Points
    104,472
    Level
    100
    Points: 104,472, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    What was the Y-dna of Anatolian IE people? What do you think? My guess is that it would be R1b-PF7562. This subglade split off from its sister L23 during the early bronze age. This correlate with the linguistic study over IE languages we have until today. This makes IE homeland somewhere in Caucasus , northern or southern whether. If I remember well there are genetic studies over the IE-Anatolians which show no genetic affinities with EEHG nomads. The contrary is shown in other IE branches. This will make R1b the original IE speakers, while the R1a needs an explanation how it got assimilated into IE linguistic world.
    I agree, I think it is possible:


  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I can't help but think that somehow you're going to relate this back to being Albanian too
    If he did relate this haplogroup to albanians it would not be wrong of him. Albanians have one of the highest, if not the highest, percentages of this specific haplogroup, just in the same way as many other ethnicities have haplogroups that are more common in their group than in other groups. Nothing special or extraordinary there. He has every right to bring up theories about, or be more interested in, the haplogroups that he relates to the most.
    If you disagree with his theories, you have every right to point out the flaws, but stop radiating these albanophobic sentiments everytime you see albanians posting something in here.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    416
    Points
    6,701
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,701, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I can't help but think that somehow you're going to relate this back to being Albanian too
    Amazing isn't it? First they have to prove they are actually the heirs to the Illyrians and not some small group from Dacia or Pannonia displaced by the either the Slavs or Avars.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-12-17
    Posts
    121
    Points
    1,455
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,455, Level: 10
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Germany - Bayern



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Amazing isn't it? First they have to prove they are actually the heirs to the Illyrians and not some small group from Dacia or Pannonia displaced by the either the Slavs or Avars.
    There is no "proving" when it comes to past events. There are just theories, and lots of them.
    The one theory that has gained most favor both nationally and internationally regarding the origin of albanians, is that they descend largely from some of the ancient western balkan tribes dubbed the Illyrians.
    The reason i say 'largely', is because no group of people remains unchanged for thousands of years, it is just impossible.
    Just look at ancient greeks, even though they had a rich literary culture, they can not even be linked fully to modern greeks beyond any doubt, as we actually have pretty hard evidence that there were huge slavic and albanian migrations towards especially thessaly, euboea, boetia, attica and peloponnes in greece during the middle ages. All those slavs and albanians did not magically disappear, but they were assimilated into what we today call modern greeks.

  22. #22
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger First Class1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Master Tagger
    Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,040
    Points
    104,472
    Level
    100
    Points: 104,472, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.3%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    3 members found this post helpful.
    @everyone,

    Let us stick to the topic of discussion, and avoid conflict.

  23. #23
    Banned Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,071
    Points
    5,328
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,328, Level: 21
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 222
    Overall activity: 26.0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Amazing isn't it? First they have to prove they are actually the heirs to the Illyrians and not some small group from Dacia or Pannonia displaced by the either the Slavs or Avars.
    The answer is in the Albanian language. Albanian language is a separate branch of the Indo-European family of languages and it is also an Paleo-Balkanic language. How much is possible that a small group of tribes somewhere in Dacia or Pannonia preserved for thousands of year their language meanwhile the other Paleo-Balkanic languages including the ancient Greek are now dead languages? It was not spoken by some small group of tribes.
    Of course there are other evidences but i think this can be discussed in other threads.

  24. #24
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,830
    Points
    309,275
    Level
    100
    Points: 309,275, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 members found this post helpful.
    This is not a thread for the discussion of Albanian foundation stories. Next thing you know we're going to get the mad Serb who thinks everyone famous was Serbian and everything wonderful was invented by Serbians.

    BACK ON TOPIC, or there will be consequences. You're not going to take over and ruin every thread here. Am I clear?
    Last edited by Angela; 02-05-19 at 20:25.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  25. #25
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    06-04-18
    Posts
    572


    Country: Romania



    I say it's safe to stay out of these fine Old Habsburg rivalries...



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gkt4AzXC3eM

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •