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Thread: E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

  1. #26
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    Aspurg, i think your Glina-Schekenberg might make sense, but first and foremost you need to prove Cetina People moved there in Eastern Balkans / Romania and then part of Cetina also pushed more North-West into the Alps where we are frequently seeing some very early splits both non Z5017/Z5018 and Z5018.

    It's much more complicated than you think. Your theory will make sense in Late Bronze Age but definitely not Middle Bronze Age and Earlier. So you see, it's all about timing.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Seeing the phylogenetic tree of splits i could visualize Riverman's theory to be honest. I even for a reason don't exclude Hügelgräberkultur. Some East Alpine/West Carpathian mountain dwellers learning some metal working skills.

    But then again Cetina makes sense as well.

    Or, if i am not wrong rafc proposed also Montero Culture from EBA Romania.

    All in all, it's a tricky one. I can see that Dardanians, Encheleians, Taulantii actually stem from a single tribe called Peresadyes whom Hammond believes is close to the name of Odrysian prince Berisades. According to lead Macedonian archeologist Pasko Kuzman Encheleians used cremation on a pyre. I don't have any information about Taulantii.

    Epirotans burial customs included 40-45% cremation and the rest inhumation. There was definitely something going on.
    Odrysians lived in the centre of modern Bulgaria
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Odrysians lived in the centre of modern Bulgaria
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom
    Center, and South East it looks.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    This guy was on track: https://axelkrist.wordpress.com/2014...ans-come-from/

    So, a Proto-Tyrrhenian population met a Thracian/Thraco-Illyrian population in East Alps/West-Carpathians to create symbiosis populations where Western part retained Tyrrhenian non IE speach and Eastern part assimilating into IE?




    https://books.google.de/books?id=vXl...ulture&f=false

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    A pottery vessel shaped like a duck or another water bird has been discovered in a Bronze Age grave near the town of Baley, northwestern Bulgaria. The vessel is an exceptional example of the highly decorated ceramics produced by the Encrusted Pottery culture, a Bronze Age people that settled the Lower Danube. Their graves are replete with the highly decorated and varied pottery after which the culture is named.

    http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/61108


    Encrusted Pottery Culture vessel looks like Daunian vessel



    Interesting, same water bird motives.

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    Cut the crap Hawk. Encrusted pottery people were non-IE speakers.

    I verified now all Bulgarian EBA, MBA, EIA finds. Even that R-Z93 find is related to Razkopanitsa, Tei cultures. It must have been more widespread back then. In addition Noua culture also must have been R-Z93.

    There was no V13 in Bulgaria, C.Balkans, Carpathians and V13 is bar some older clades likely totally related to the Encrusted wave and subsequent Girla Mare.

    Then these Pelasgians in LBA formed a culture with Gava R1a carriers and from them they adopted the Thracian language. They expand into "Thrace" (there was no Thrace at the time), Caarpathians, C.Balkans, S.Balkans.

    They eradicated a significant number of R-Z2103, R-Z93, G2a and other lineages in process. Were significantly responsible also for the collapse of R-Z2103 dominated Mycenae.

    Original Vatina people were probably R-Z2103, even J-L283 etc. , similar to Maros culture finds. In MBA Encrusted pottery people settled and they came to dominate remnants of Vatina, Verbicioara and the others in the area.

    As E-V13 expanded in EIA it caused autosomal EEF-isation of the area as well.

    So solution is
    Cetina - Egyptoid/Berberoid speakers
    Encrusted wave - Etruscoid/Pelasgian speakers
    Encrusted wave who merged with Gava R-Z280 people - Thracian speakers. Anything else is secondary and tertiary.

    As Pšeničevo people did reach Mediana culture (ancestors of Dardanians) populated by quite possibly R-BY611, some of them likely adopted Messapian language from them and migrated with them to Illyrian lands. This Brnjica, Mediana migrations are well attested.

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    Brother, you change your theories on moon phases.

    There is absolutely no logic to indicate an Egyptoid/Berberoid people among Cetina, the time when E-L618 split from Afro-Asiatics was long time ago, probably they left Nile Valley or they were kicked out by other E-M78 tribes when desertification of Sahara began, and they left for Levant, and probably came in Balkans via maritime routes. They were always a minority, among their original kin Afro-Asiatics, among the Neolithic Farmers, they kicked in when they mingled with some IE tribes, part of them, part of them could have been Tyrrhenian speakers as you and i indicated, but Etruscan samples are coming, and when they are revealed we will know for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Brother, you change your theories on moon phases.
    No, I change my views rarely, but in this instance I must. I was correct geographically speaking. E-V13 seems to have started spreading roughly where Vatina is from. It's just around 1500 BC Girla Mare Encrusted people started coming in and even dominated the older Vatina layer, and they basically overlapped each other to a significant degree geographically. Girla Mare also came to exert influence on Verbicioara (sister culture to Vatina), Tei cultures etc.

    Current aDNA finds indicate clearly that E-V13 should be traced to Girla Mare/Dubovac, as Pšeničevo is a granddaughter culture of Girla Mare and not of Vatina and its sister cultures. And its mother culture (Insula Banului) is where Gava and Girla Mare elements fused to form the proto-Thracians.

    Despite earlier non-IE links though, Thracians were E-V13 and they reduced the indigenous C.Balkan/E.Balkan R-Z2103's to pieces in LBA/EIA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    There is absolutely no logic to indicate an Egyptoid/Berberoid people among Cetina, the time when E-L618 split from Afro-Asiatics was long time ago, probably they left Nile Valley or they were kicked out by other E-M78 tribes when desertification of Sahara began, and they left for Levant, and probably came in Balkans via maritime routes. They were always a minority, among their original kin Afro-Asiatics, among the Neolithic Farmers, they kicked in when they mingled with some IE tribes, part of them, part of them could have been Tyrrhenian speakers as you and i indicated, but Etruscan samples are coming, and when they are revealed we will know for sure.
    All of that stands. Except we now have indications that Berbers and their language came to their modern areas with the Cardial wave! If Cardials could have had proto-Berber they could have spoken any other AA.

    Already EEF's seem to have spoken different languages, as Basque most likely is also EEF but unrelated to Etruscan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, I change my views rarely, but in this instance I must. I was correct geographically speaking. E-V13 seems to have started spreading roughly where Vatina is from. It's just around 1500 BC Girla Mare Encrusted people started coming in and even dominated the older Vatina layer, and they basically overlapped each other to a significant degree geographically. Girla Mare also came to exert influence on Verbicioara (sister culture to Vatina), Tei cultures etc.

    Current aDNA finds indicate clearly that E-V13 should be traced to Girla Mare/Dubovac, as Pšeničevo is a granddaughter culture of Girla Mare and not of Vatina and its sister cultures. And its mother culture (Insula Banului) is where Gava and Girla Mare elements fused to form the proto-Thracians.

    Despite earlier non-IE links though, Thracians were E-V13 and they reduced the indigenous C.Balkan/E.Balkan R-Z2103's to pieces in LBA/EIA.



    All of that stands. Except we now have indications that Berbers and their language came to their modern areas with the Cardial wave! If Cardials could have had proto-Berber they could have spoken any other AA.


    Already EEF's seem to have spoken different languages, as Basque most likely is also EEF but unrelated to Etruscan.
    Could you please provide proof in the form of published papers to support that statement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could you please provide proof in the form of published papers to support that statement.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/191569v1.full

    Quoting Aspar from another forum.
    The samples IAM.4 and IAM.5 dated at around 5100 BCE from this study belong to E-L19*. They also belong to mt-dna U6a, the same one found among the Taforalt individuals while another IAM sample belongs to mt-dna M1b also found among Taforalt individuals.

    Excerpt from the study:

    Genetic analyses have revealed that the population history of modern North Africans is quite complex7. Based on our aDNA analysis, we identify an Early Neolithic Moroccan component that is restricted to North Africa in present-day populations7, which is the sole ancestry in IAM samples. We hypothesize that this component represents the autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry associated with Berber populations. This Maghrebi component was related to that of Epipaleolithic and Pre-Pottery Neolithic people from the Levant. By 3,000 BCE, a European Neolithic expansion brought Mediterranean-like ancestry to the Maghreb, most likely from Iberia. Our analyses demonstrate that at least some of the European ancestry observed today in North Africa is related to prehistoric migrations, and local Berber populations were already admixed with Europeans before the Roman conquest. Furthermore, additional European/Iberian ancestry could have reached the Maghreb after KEB people; this scenario is supported by the presence of Iberian-like Bell-Beaker pottery in more recent stratigraphic layers of IAM and KEB caves. Future palaeogenomic efforts in North Africa will help further disentangle the complex history of migrations that forged the ancestry of many admixed populations we observe today.



    West Eurasian populations can be modelled as admixture of four different ancestral components2: Eastern and Western European hunter-gatherers, Iranian and Levant Neolithic. We explored the placement of Moroccan and Southern Iberian Neolithic samples in this context, and compared their genetic affinities to ancient and present-day West Eurasian and Levant populations. Interestingly, Principal Components Analysis (PCA) reveals that IAM individuals are different from any aDNA sample studied to date (Figure 2; Supplementary Note 6). When projected, IAM samples are close to modern North Africans, in the Levantine corner of the PCA space (Figure 2). Southern Iberian Neolithic individuals from TOR and BOT cluster with Sardinians and with other Anatolian and European Neolithic samples. Moreover, KEB samples are placed halfway between the IAM and Anatolian/European farmer clusters, in close proximity to Levant aDNA samples. We further explored the genetic structure of these samples using the program ADMIXTURE16 (See Supplementary Note 7 for details), with values of K ranging between 2 and 8. At lower K values, IAM samples possess ~100% of a component partially shared by aDNA samples from the Middle East and Levant. At K=6, this IAM-like component is observed mainly in modern North Africa, following a west-to-east cline. TOR and other Early Neolithic samples from Iberia cluster together with farmers from Anatolia, the Aegean area and Europe. At K=8 the Early Neolithic individuals from Iberia differentiate from the Anatolian, Aegean and European Early Neolithic samples, and share their main component (purple) with Middle Neolithic/Chalcolitic samples (Figure 2). Finally, at low K values, KEB can be explained as having both IAM-like and European Neolithic components, suggesting an admixture process between IAM-like people and early farmers.


    In short, these IAM individuals were Taforalt like and related to the Paleolithic populations from the Levant but NOT exactly like them. These were direct continuation of the Mesolithic North African population.
    The other set of individuals called KEB and dated to around 3000 BCE were different than the IAM individuals in that they were a two way mix of IAM and Anatolian Farmers genetically speaking. Also they had different uniparentals hence the study says this:

    Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups obtained for IAM (Moroccan Early Neolithic) and KEB (Moroccan Late Neolithic) indicate either a population replacement or an important genetic influx into Morocco between 5,000–3,000 BCE. IAM samples belong to the mtDNA haplogroups U6a and M1—both of which are associated with back migration to Africa13,14while KEB samples belong to haplogroups K1, T2 and X2, prominently found in Anatolian and European Neolithic samples2,15 (Supplementary Note 4). Regarding the paternal lineages, IAM individuals carry Y chromosomes distantly related to the typically North African E-M81 haplogroup, while the Y chromosome from KEB belongs to the T-M184 haplogroup; though scarce and broadly distributed today, this haplogroup has also been observed in European Neolithic individuals16 (Supplementary Note 5)


    The study concludes that the Anatolian Farmer admixture came from Iberia where other set of individuals called TOR were also studied and were found to be Balkan and Aegean Farmer like. The study goes on to say this:

    To formally test this hypothesis, we used an admixture-f3 test17, using KEB as the test population, IAM as a reference population and one of the Anatolian and European Neolithic and Chalcolithic populations as the second reference population. All comparisons produced negative values of the f3-statistic, which suggests the KEB population can be modelled as a mixture of IAM and Anatolian/European Neolithic. These results also parallel archaeological findings in the region: Late Neolithic sites in North Africa contain pottery resembling that of the Andalusian Early Neolithic and Cardial cultures, and ivory tools distinctly associated with those of Iberian Neolithic sites (Supplementary Note 1).

    TOR has more shared ancestry with Iberian Early Neolithic samples and other Neolithic and Chalcolithic populations from Europe. Archaeological work in southern Iberia, especially in the Nerja site, has pointed out that the Andalusian Early Neolithic culture, previous to the Cardial expansion, may have had connections to farmer traditions in the Maghreb18. However, we observe that TOR samples have a similar genetic composition to that of Cardial individuals from Iberia, evidencing a common origin.


    In another words, Cardial Pottery traditions were spread in North Africa by Iberian Farmers that were identical to those the Cardial Pottery individuals from Iberia who were very similar to their Balkan and Aegean counterparts and NOT the other way around. This is the final nail in the coffin to the idea that individuals from North Africa spread Cardial Pottery traditions.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could you please provide proof in the form of published papers to support that statement.
    A likelihood is the C Group culture from Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Group_culture

    But then again anywhere from Northern Africa is possible.

    European Cardial is far-fetched by all means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenpl View Post
    The old traditional haplogroups in Europe are C, F, G, H, I, R. But E appears only in the form of a drowning on the coast of Croatia about 8000 years ago and then of two refugees in Spain. The rest of the E's were in their area of origin, ie in northern and northeastern Africa, in the Levant and south and central Asia. Only from 1800 to 1500 years ago and until today it begins to multiply in Europe.
    I know, I know, the worst part of it, if you ain't E-V13 you're no real Dacian. And it multiplies with your precious Dacians, remember that. Unless you're some non-Slavic R-Z280 Gava clade ofc but they haven't been found as of yet bar one clade possibly.

    It's frustrating isn't it, all of those G2a clades and no real Dacians and then comes an E-M78 clade and bang, they are real Dacians.

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    This is Neolithic Vinca chariot.



    Quite similar to Dubovac-Zuto Brdo Culture



    The same motiv of bird head was added to the Aegean type ships from the Sea Peoples


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, I change my views rarely, but in this instance I must. I was correct geographically speaking. E-V13 seems to have started spreading roughly where Vatina is from. It's just around 1500 BC Girla Mare Encrusted people started coming in and even dominated the older Vatina layer, and they basically overlapped each other to a significant degree geographically. Girla Mare also came to exert influence on Verbicioara (sister culture to Vatina), Tei cultures etc.

    Current aDNA finds indicate clearly that E-V13 should be traced to Girla Mare/Dubovac, as Pšeničevo is a granddaughter culture of Girla Mare and not of Vatina and its sister cultures. And its mother culture (Insula Banului) is where Gava and Girla Mare elements fused to form the proto-Thracians.

    Despite earlier non-IE links though, Thracians were E-V13 and they reduced the indigenous C.Balkan/E.Balkan R-Z2103's to pieces in LBA/EIA.
    That's something agreed upon, but your theory is likely truth as much as the others who insist on IE Danube links. And i personally believe the truth meets somewhere in the middle between your version and Danube IE. I remember asking you guys to what culture is Kapitan Andreevo related to, i even searched for material in Bulgarian but found none, can you please link us a source, be it in Serbian or Bulgarian that clearly indicates Kapitan Andreevo was part of Psenicevo-Babadag Cultural group?

    Also, if we believe this guy: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post593903

    Most of Etruscans speculatively were R1b, with one I1, and confirmed J2b2-L283 so far. So, no E-V13 i guess among Etruscans or Pelasgians.

    All of that stands. Except we now have indications that Berbers and their language came to their modern areas with the Cardial wave! If Cardials could have had proto-Berber they could have spoken any other AA.

    Already EEF's seem to have spoken different languages, as Basque most likely is also EEF but unrelated to Etruscan.
    No, Angela asked you for peer reviewed paper, you quoted Aspar.

    And, despite that, Aspar was deducing the likelihood of Cardial Farmer spread and the logic behind why E-L618 spread with this culture and not directly from North Africa. Nowhere did he mention Proto-Berber language.
    Last edited by Hawk; 08-06-21 at 12:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's something agreed upon, but your theory is likely truth as much as the others who insist on IE Danube links. And i personally believe the truth meets somewhere in the middle between your version and Danube IE. I remember asking you guys to what culture is Kapitan Andreevo related to, i even searched for material in Bulgarian but found none, can you please link us a source, be it in Serbian or Bulgarian that clearly indicates Kapitan Andreevo was part of Psenicevo-Babadag Cultural group?
    It is not easy to find material on this, especially Kapitan Andreevo. But ofc it is in Bulgarian and it cannot be found just like that on google. There is plenty of Bulgarian material on Svilengrad complex, which included nearby Kapitan Andreevo. You remember that old E-Z1919 find (per some confirmed as V13+ and surely on hi res he is V13) from Svilengrad proper. So you should take that find also into account. Primary source for classification was knowledge of what Pshenichevo culture is. Burial customs, pottery found were all typical of that culture which at the time dominated the area. I could have but I didn't go into minute details on the finds, as I don't receive much credit for that already and as people do not follow evidence, why would I bother to explain? And ofc I'm thinking about possibly writing something on the topic so I don not want to reveal all. Good information on the entire Svielngrad find can be found in Bulgarian archeological chronicle.
    You can find even English sources that do attribute Svilengrad complex to Pshenichevo culture.

    Babadag is a sister culture of Pshenichevo. MJ12 "Thraco-Cimmerian" I have classified as belonging to Babadag culture. I went for this in Russian and Ukrainian archeological sources. Because that find from Dobruja is on the Ukrainian territory, even though it's to the South of Moldova.

    Autosomally MJ12 shows affinities with Moldovan "Scythians" (Getae).

    Rivermans theory about V13 being very related tu Urnfield and original Gava is done. So there aren't many options left. Sorry but my version is based on pure archeogenetic facts while yours and Rivermans contains lots of wishful thinking, often not paying attention to facts. Many Central/N.European V13's would like to be of more Northern origin so they could be "more white"..

    E-V13 has nothing to do with deep Central Europe (S.Germany, Austria, Slovakia etc.) , Western Europe. Most of samples from there are related to newer migrations (Roman etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Also, if we believe this guy: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post593903

    Most of Etruscans speculatively were R1b, with one I1, and confirmed J2b2-L283 so far. So, no E-V13 i guess among Etruscans or Pelasgians.
    Pelasgians are very undefined. But as I was saying Pelasgians of Lemnos might be related to some modern G2a finds from there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, Angela asked you for peer reviewed paper, you quoted Aspar.

    And, despite that, Aspar was deducing the likelihood of Cardial Farmer spread and the logic behind why E-L618 spread with this culture and not directly from North Africa. Nowhere did he mention Proto-Berber language.
    Angela sked for the paper and I added the link..

    Well I haven't been reading that paper in great detail, but I have noticed how modern North Africans seem to have some visible EEF component, that is not related to any recent Spanish ancestry etc.

    And also remember that I was finding evidence of Natufian cultural practices in Cardials from Dalmatia, and I claimed long ago they could have spoken an AA language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenpl View Post
    What you talk about?! G2a are much older than Dacians and was overwhelming present in Starcevo-Cris, Vinca, Cucuteni cultures in Balkan / Europe long time before.
    You said G is an old European hg while E isn't and yet E came to Europe at the same time as G2a or even slightly earlier. That G2a dominated is a fact ofc. I actually like G2a, but you might check what subclade you are. There are in Romanians some subclades that likely arrived with Romans or Byzantines from Anatolia.
    Such as https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-Z17887/

    One of the more common clusters in Romania. I believe they are G-FT108136 with Kuwaiti and Turkish sample. One did BigY.

    Quote Originally Posted by tenpl View Post
    And are you a... ha-ha! Putin lover... or What??
    I suppose there are many Putin lovers in Romania?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This is Neolithic Vinca chariot.



    Quite similar to Dubovac-Zuto Brdo Culture



    The same motiv of bird head was added to the Aegean type ships from the Sea Peoples
    Yes Girla Mare/Zuto Brdo had plenty of old Neolithic influence. Marija Gimbutas considered it non-IE, but Milutin Garašanin didn't mention such an option. He said they were probably ancestors of Mysians. Ultimately Girla Mare comes from the Transdanubian Enctrusted culture which stems from the Vučedol culture. This is where some Cetina/proto-Cetina element could have moved up to the North (and such movements did happen).

    So definitely these cultures need more studying. Going by Gimbutas, and as obviously some influences of Girla-Mare/Gava existed in early Villanova, one could speculate Etruscan language moved alongside, but current results from Lemnos (where there were Etruscoid speakers) do not go in favor of E-V13, and a stray G-L497 as well as G-L91 clade as found, both EEF. Third find is some I1 (I think some Etruscan is rumored to be I1, though here Germanic ancestry is more likely ofc).

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    Plus more views. It seems from Polish sources here.

    Russian wikipedia, Girla Mare (proto-Dorians ?), Encrusted pottery (ancestors of the Greeks ?)

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A...B8%D0%BA%D0%B8

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93...B0%D1%80%D0%B5

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    What does all of this mean regarding the Mycenaeans or later Dorians then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes Girla Mare/Zuto Brdo had plenty of old Neolithic influence. Marija Gimbutas considered it non-IE, but Milutin Garašanin didn't mention such an option. He said they were probably ancestors of Mysians. Ultimately Girla Mare comes from the Transdanubian Enctrusted culture which stems from the Vučedol culture. This is where some Cetina/proto-Cetina element could have moved up to the North (and such movements did happen).

    So definitely these cultures need more studying. Going by Gimbutas, and as obviously some influences of Girla-Mare/Gava existed in early Villanova, one could speculate Etruscan language moved alongside, but current results from Lemnos (where there were Etruscoid speakers) do not go in favor of E-V13, and a stray G-L497 as well as G-L91 clade as found, both EEF. Third find is some I1 (I think some Etruscan is rumored to be I1, though here Germanic ancestry is more likely ofc).
    Cardial Pottery => Butmir Culture => Vucedol Culture ?

    Butmir Culture was partially derived from Cardium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

    But, anyway i still trying to make sense out of your chronology.

    You say Encrusted Pottery Culture + Gava formed Proto-Thracians, but then again Garla Mara/Zuto-Brdo Dubovac Culture was non IE.

  22. #47
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    484

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Japan



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I am actually quite surprised by newly added Turkish E-V13 subclades:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

  23. #48
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    723

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Indeed. Very interesting results. Kudos to the Turkish researchers for doing such a massive thing. Some new L283 were also added with Turkish flags.

    Regarding the new V13 samples, just had a look at them. There seems to be some consistency regarding 3.6k ya TMRCA ones that share clades with European samples. I would not mention this, but I think it could mean something, at least 4-5 diverse subclades showed this feature.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  24. #49
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    1,102

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    rare E-FGC7391
    MtDNA haplogroup
    h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    back in the day there was this research
    https://www.academia.edu/5557321/Exc...ta_in_Anatolia


    which found 5% e-m78 likely most of them were e-v13
    like we see now with this university research ( we still waiting for leper from anthrogenica to anlayse all of them and other people to upload them to yfull )
    it is very cool that now we have a chance thanks to WGS to see the exact branch under e-m78 and farther more under e-v13
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  25. #50
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-03-20
    Posts
    378


    Country: Austria



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Indeed. Very interesting results. Kudos to the Turkish researchers for doing such a massive thing. Some new L283 were also added with Turkish flags.

    Regarding the new V13 samples, just had a look at them. There seems to be some consistency regarding 3.6k ya TMRCA ones that share clades with European samples. I would not mention this, but I think it could mean something, at least 4-5 diverse subclades showed this feature.

    If you go through all the main subclades of E-V13, the Northern and Southern (generally Balkan, especially Albanian, Greek, Turkish) ones cluster together with a TMRCA between 1600-700 BC. After that time, there is practically no overlap. Remind you, the earlier dates don't mean they departe from each other immediately, its the latest dates which are decisive. And the latest are about the time of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and the beginning of Hallstatt, the full Iron Age. So its definitely all happening within the LBA-EIA transition. In that time span some moved to the West and East, or stayed in place, others moved down to the Balkans and beyond.

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