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Thread: E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

  1. #51
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    Thraco-Cimmerian is a bit exotic culture to associate with E-V13, it might be the case for some specific subclades but not for most of E-V13 Z5018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Thraco-Cimmerian is a bit exotic culture to associate with E-V13, it might be the case for some specific subclades but not for most of E-V13 Z5018.
    Its like when I say "Celtic" or in some instances even "Slavic". It doesn't have to mean the majority was E-V13, but carriers of this haplogroup participated in this movements and especially Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt culture surely got involved in the spread of E-V13 from its original source region around the Carpathians. The timing is really ideal for most Western subclades for their departure from the Balkan route a huge portion of E-V13 was taking in the LBA-EIA transition. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon pretty directly influenced the later Hallstatt sphere. E-V13 spread, especially in the regions North of the Danube, the most with Iron making technology.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't agree with Thraco-Cimmerian zone, i think it might be right for some specific E-V13 subclades like E-V13 CTS9320 but not for the other subclades, but then again more or less it looks like all of these culture come from a common bulk some migrated in Middle Bronze Age some in Late Bronze Age and some in Early Iron Age.

    I am actually quite thankful to you Riverman, Aspurg and Aspar, also to rafc for your thorough look on E-V13 origin, i guess every E-V13 member should be thankful as well, i think more or less you might be right, with some exceptions.

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    How did so called pure thracian v13 (impossible by the way) romania go from 100% v13 to under 6%?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3547065/

    I dont believe this nonsense about thracians being pure v13 in iron age, that is ridiculous. Where is the adna and how did east europe lose all that v13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    How did so called pure thracian v13 (impossible by the way) romania go from 100% v13 to under 6%?
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3547065/
    LOL. You must begin your post by a display of utter degeneracy? Out of multiple studies of Romanians, you cherry-picked up a sample where E-V13 is at its lowest, and then you parade this sample of 54 Romanians as if it represents the entire population. This a sample from Romanian Moldova. But overall there are almost 900 Romanian FTDNA/Dante and scientific study samples from multiple regions of Romania and E-V13 overall stands at 15 %. Also in Bulgaria/Romania J-L283 + R-M269, L51- do not reach the V13 %. Far from it. In Albania they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I dont believe this nonsense about thracians being pure v13 in iron age, that is ridiculous.
    They are thus far pretty pure in V13. If we add Getae, and they too were Thracian, 5/6. By "pure" I mean only spreaders of the language here ofc.

    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Where is the adna and how did east europe lose all that v13?
    There is some E-V13 diversity and increased % in Western Ukraine, presumably much of that are remnants of some Free Dacian groups. Again even in Russia, Tatarstan there is some percentage of E-V13, looks to be higher than in Slovenia.

    There are other factors that make the usage of modern day percentages as unsound. First is massive Slavic expansion, and for example Albania is one of the most Slavic-free places Y-DNA wise. So first one has to remove such influence..

    I do not claim that all V13 are Thracian, but that significant portion of it took part in Thracian ethnogenesis.

    E-V13 comes from the Western Balkans in the Neolithic, for a long time E-V13 haters tried to present E-V13 as some Pelasgian slaves, farmers, but a lineage so strong in MBA, LBA, EIA couldn't have been the one playing second fiddle to J-L283 or R-Z2103.

    We left our lands, for proto-Illyrians to occupy them. We made our home elsewhere and we were the bosses. You for emotional reasons want to be firmly tied to Southern-western Balkan area even if it means that you willingly accept being a 3rd rate Illyrian, 1st rate Illyrian is an invader of the Western Balkans, not the native. (such as J-L283 or R-Z2103) IE or any other strong group expanding were invaders so for V13 to be an invader it must expand from elsewhere. Purely by logic its TMRCA and spread suggests that was the case and so does the aDNA.

    Denying V13 its rightful place in ethnogenesis processes is slander. I've seen much of that. And whoever is a proud V13 will not be allowing it. And unfortunately, whether its an enormous desire to be Illyrian no matter what or more Illyrian than other hg's (some Albanian V13), or whether its pure hatred in the case of some others (non V13 mostly ofc as displayed by this Romanian here).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Cardial Pottery => Butmir Culture => Vucedol Culture ?

    Butmir Culture was partially derived from Cardium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

    But, anyway i still trying to make sense out of your chronology.

    You say Encrusted Pottery Culture + Gava formed Proto-Thracians, but then again Garla Mara/Zuto-Brdo Dubovac Culture was non IE.
    In Insula-Banului culture. LBA. From Insula-Banului can Pshenichevo, Babadag, Basarabi be traced. Insula-Banului is close to where Gava-Belegis II (which Riverman has been mentioning often) is from.
    So lineage is Garla Mare->Insula Banului-> Pshenichevo
    -> Babadag (some derive Babadag out of Pshenichevo too)

    How old is Pshenichevo culture itself? One measure is Troy VIIb2 when its finds are found there. About 1100 BC. Some of these new Turkish samples could be related to that. Pshenichevo people were the second wave of settlers at Troy after the destruction of Troy VIIa in 1180 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I don't agree with Thraco-Cimmerian zone, i think it might be right for some specific E-V13 subclades like E-V13 CTS9320 but not for the other subclades, but then again more or less it looks like all of these culture come from a common bulk some migrated in Middle Bronze Age some in Late Bronze Age and some in Early Iron Age.

    CTS9320 does look with Thraco-Cimmerian links, one reason is an Ossetian CTS9320* branch. Another is a recent Central Asian Kangju CTS9320 sample, thus far he is still CTS9320*, maybe he is related to this modern Ossetian sample. He can only be Cimmerian related or descendant of Alexanders army. Autosomally he was totally Kangju/Sarmatian-derived. Of Z5018 in the East most prominent is FGC11450. These two have significant Danubian-Carpathian links.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am actually quite thankful to you Riverman, Aspurg and Aspar, also to rafc for your thorough look on E-V13 origin, i guess every E-V13 member should be thankful as well, i think more or less you might be right, with some exceptions.
    I think all of us made contributions that contained degrees of truth. You too suggested more Western Pannonian point. Girla-Mare does point to that Encrusted pottery culture. I thought numerous Hungarian finds from MBA in Pannonia do not point towards V13 but again most of them are from the NE, and TEW people were not tested.

    Strong Pshenichevo connection does clearly imply Garla-Mare. Pshenichevo is actually how some of these clades could have (and most likely did) reached Albania. Albanian areas did not receive significant Urnfield waves. They did receive Brnjica and Mediana elements. Pshenichevo came to dominate the Mediana III phase (Mediana II had Gava links). I was mentioning Brnjica-Mediana migrations even when I was mentioning Vatina, in this instance not much has changed.

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    Marija Gimbutas noted that Proto-Illyrians migrated into Illyria during Late Bronze Age from Middle Danube, we also see during this time that cremation was introduced into Glasinac:

    However, in the Late Bronze Age, occasional cremation burials started to appear in communitieswith long inhumation tradition. Prominent examples are cremation graves from the Glasinac regionin eastern Bosnia6 or the region of Lika in Croatia.7 The sporadic and unusual incinerations indicateinfluences from the bordering Urnfield culture complex. Within the study region, grave finds from thefinal stages of the Late Bronze Age (the 9th century BCE) point to increased interaction of groups thatpractice different mortuary body treatments.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile...rn-Balkans.pdf
    Already in the Early and so more in the Middle amd Late Bronze Aegean ceramics and weapons are imported and imitated. But there is also a strong influrence from the Danubian Urnfield culture.


    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/publi...roman-albania/
    So, the picture you portray is not so black vs white or right vs left.

    There was clearly a Late Bronze Age intrusion among Illyrians and i believe E-V13 subclades, especially under E-V13 Z5018 played a major role.

    It was long though Liburnians were Early Bronze Age descended but deeper archeological researched showed cremation as well. Gavranovic noted the not so deep research on Balkan archeology and very un-mature conclusions.

    In the northern Dalmatia region where there were only two cultural systems throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages, four moments are crucial in the use of cremation ritual during the 2nd/1st centuries BC: in the Early Bronze Age (Cetina culture: Ervenik, Podvršje − Matakov brig, Nadin, Krneza − Duševića glavica), in the Early Iron Age (Nadin, mound 13, Krneza − Jokina glavica), in Hellenism (Dragišić, gr. 4 A-C), and finally, for the first time very intensively during the Romanization of Liburnians. Newly discovered cremations in ceramic urns (gr. 3, 13) in burial mound 13 (9th – 6th cent. BC) from Nadin near Benkovac are the first example (after Dragišić) of Liburnian cremation; more precisely, burial mound 13 with 19 graves represents a form of biritualism in the Liburnians. It is also an example of the greatest number of Liburnian burials under a mound, with crouched, extended and cremated skeletons and many ritual remains (traces of fire on the ground and on animal bones: funerary feast?; numerous remains of ceramic vessels (libation?). Although typical Liburnian burial "inherits" many formal and symbolic elements (stone cist, enclosing wall, libation, etc.) from the (Early) Bronze Age (and probably Eneolithic as well), cremation in the Liburnian burial mound 13 from Nadin cannot be explained in terms of continuity from the Early Bronze Age; links are missing, particularly those from the Middle Bronze Age in the study of the cultural dynamics of the 2nd millennium BC in the northern Dalmatia region. Squat form of the Nadin urns with a distinct neck has analogies in the Liburnian (Nin) and Daunian funerary pots for burying newborns (ad encytrismos), and also in the typology of pottery (undecorated or decorated) in a wider region (Ruše, V.Gorica, Dalj/Vukovar, Terni II, Este, Bologna I-II, Roma II, Cumae I, Pontecagnano IA, Histrians, etc.), i.e. in the forms widespread from the Danubian region, Alps, and Balkans to the Apennine Peninsula between the Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages (10th/9th – 8th cent. BC). Although appearance of cremation in the Picenian culture has not been completely clear (Fermo necropolis, burials from Ancona, Numana, Novilara: graves Servici, 29, 39 from Piceno II-III, from the 8th/7th.cent. BC), Liburnian culture is most similar to the Picenian culture in the Adriatic world by the intensity and period of cremation, and form of urns. Specifically, decorated urn in a male grave 52 from Numana from the 9th century BC is analogous to the Nadin urns. This grave from Numana is usually mentioned as an example of trans-Adriatic, Picenian-Liburnian (Balkanic) i.e. Picenian-Histrian relations. Liburnian urns are similar to the urn from the grave in Numana, 495, Davanzali, from the late 9th century by their profilation. "Genesis" of both Liburnian and Picenian cremation is unknown. They are two convergent phenomena, reflecting the "unity" of the late Urnenfelder world of the 10th/9th centuries BC and resulting from cultural-ethnical contacts in a "closed circle" from the Danubian region – southeastern Alpine region – Apennine Peninsula, supported by smaller migrations in the first centuries of the Iron Age, from the trans-Adriatic direction in Picenum (with definite Villanova influence), and in Liburnia probably from the hinterland. In this Adriatic circle in the first centuries of the Iron Age multiple cultural contacts between Liburnians, Histrians and Picenians are for now a good (initial) context for a more detailed interpretation of Liburnian cremation. Despite the aforementioned, it is not necessary to relate directly the structure (ritual, goods) of gr. 52, Numana – Qualiotti to Histrian patterns nor the grave 495, Numana-Davanzali to the Iapodian ones. Cremated Liburnian burial from the Early Iron Age represents a certain continuity and a "reflection" of the late Urnenfelder circle, which was manifested in different ways in the beginnings of the Liburnian, Picenian, and Histrian cultures and elsewhere. The latest excavations on a planned Liburnian-Roman necropolis in Nadin (Nedinum) provided us with new information about the spatial, chronological and symbolical relation (religious, social) between the autochtonous Liburnian and Roman component in the period of Romanization of northern Dalmatia.
    https://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show...k_jezik=108746
    We also now know that actually the Illyrian tribe Enchelei which are noted to create the earliest state among known Illyrian tribes used cremation on a pyre, and this is noted by most known Macedonian archeologist Pasko Kuzman.

    On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”

    https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-...edonian-elite/

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    All in all, i expect a more complex picture of Illyrians, as noted by various archeologists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Marija Gimbutas noted that Proto-Illyrians migrated into Illyria during Late Bronze Age from Middle Danube, we also see during this time that cremation was introduced into Glasinac:





    So, the picture you portray is not so black vs white or right vs left.

    There was clearly a Late Bronze Age intrusion among Illyrians and i believe E-V13 subclades, especially under E-V13 Z5018 played a major role.

    It was long though Liburnians were Early Bronze Age descended but deeper archeological researched showed cremation as well. Gavranovic noted the not so deep research on Balkan archeology and very un-mature conclusions.



    We also now know that actually the Illyrian tribe Enchelei which are noted to create the earliest state among known Illyrian tribes used cremation on a pyre, and this is noted by most known Macedonian archeologist Pasko Kuzman.
    But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

    Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

    Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

    What you should rather focus is this
    article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg

    Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

    Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

    And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

    Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

    My proposal is
    yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
    brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

    Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

    So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

    Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

    Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

    What you should rather focus is this
    article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg

    Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

    Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

    And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

    Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

    My proposal is
    yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
    brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

    Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

    So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.
    There are several Armenian Dna study that prove that Armenians did not come from Balkans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    There are several Armenian Dna study that prove that Armenians did not come from Balkans.
    What study? They show some EEF related ancestry (Balkan auDNA had strong EEF component).

    Where do they come from then?

    Armenian language is related to Greek and Albanian.

    Btw I mentioned Phrygians here, not Armenians. One of these two major R-Z2103 clades Armenians have is likely Phrygian and not proto-Armenian related.

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    Copy of my comment from elsewhere.

    In this scheme E-V13 clades joined possibly the R-Z2705 carriers in Mediana III phase where Pshenichevo element dominated. We already know what hg Pshenichevo people belonged to mostly.


    In this scheme J-L283 is Glasinac-Mati related (which it is surely), while E-V13 is Kuc i Zi and Messapian related. And therefore E-V13 is more Albanian than J-L283..


    Btw these migrations to Southern Albania are just about the only way to explain the coming of E-V13 from an archeological POV. Anything else is
    2) saying V13 was forever in Albania since the Neolithic and it spreads from there in BA, IA
    3) V13 arrived to Albania in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval times.


    So anybody can choose his favorite option. I'd choose no 1. for the majority.
    Hawk what option do you choose? :) Some Albanians seem to strongly favor the second. TaktikatEMalet, Leki? But pretty much impossible. And no.2 is basically E-V13 as underclass under R1b and J2b2.

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    E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    What study? They show some EEF related ancestry (Balkan auDNA had strong EEF component).

    Where do they come from then?

    Armenian language is related to Greek and Albanian.

    Btw I mentioned Phrygians here, not Armenians. One of these two major R-Z2103 clades Armenians have is likely Phrygian and not proto-Armenian related.
    Maybe you have missed this:

    Up until recently, it was hypothesized that the Armenian people migrated from the Balkans into the Armenian Highlands, based on a passage by Herodotus in the 5th century BC claiming a kinship between Armenians and Phrygians. However, the results of a 2020 study on Armenian genetics "strongly reject" this long-standing narrative, and shows that Armenians are genetically distinct from the ancient populations of the Balkans.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200815....168781v1.full



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    Last edited by blevins13; 10-06-21 at 13:04.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

    Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

    Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

    What you should rather focus is this
    article_prehistoric-pottery_1-1024x918.jpg

    Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

    Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

    And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

    Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

    My proposal is
    yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
    brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

    Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

    So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.
    I cannot say much about this, i am going to come back at you when i do a research on Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and the connections it has so i understand the chronology.

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    Significance and interpretation


    The importance of matt-painted pottery lies foremost in the key role assigned to it by archaeologists regarding the question of ethnic movements in central and northern Greece during the Bronze Age.
    Hence, R.J. Buck (1964, 280) saw the emergence of matt-painted pottery as evidence of an immigrating people known at the time as the “Minyans”, and F. Matz linked their derivation with the essential ethnogenesis of the Greeks themselves (1962, 162). 2 Similarly, the derivation of matt-painted pottery is seen in close association with the “Illyrian people” in Albania. Thus, Prendi explains the appearance of matt-painted pottery in the Devoll valley as the continuous indigenous development of the Illyrians, which would predate that in Macedonia and Epirus and – emanating from Albania – would have influenced these regions. 3 N.G.L. Hammond (1967, 390), on the contrary, connects the dissemination of matt-painted pottery with immigration of the Dorians and postulates a movement of transhumant shepherds from Epirus through Macedonia. J. Vokotopoulou (1986, 255 ff.) views Late Bronze Age matt-painted pottery in Macedonia as the result of a migration of “Macedonian tribes” from central Greece to the north and northeast.


    The merging of the many different geographical and chronological categories of pottery in one term has led to confusion, on the one hand, while, on the other, it implies an intentional or unintentional contextual association of all. De facto not every piece of pottery with dull, lustreless, i.e. matt painting can be assigned automatically to the category of mattpainted pottery. And in any case, it should be distinguishable from mattpainted pottery through the terminology.




    http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net...ticle&id_art=8
    So, who are the matt-painted pottery culture? Some say they formed the later Proto-Greek tribes (Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians?), other say they formed Illyrians from Albania. Hard to say.

    How did you come to conclusion that this culture was heavily influenced by Mediana group?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So, who are the matt-painted pottery culture? Some say they formed the later Proto-Greek tribes (Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians?), other say they formed Illyrians from Albania. Hard to say.

    How did you come to conclusion that this culture was heavily influenced by Mediana group?
    Yes, views are often conflicting. They also had multiple influences.

    Speaking of migrations. Milutin Garasanin (btw he was E-V13 as he is of Bjelopavlic) map of LBA/EIA transition. Left arrow going down are the Brnjica group people reaching S.Albania, Korca basin. Right arrow is Mediana (and Paracin ?) people migration. You see they do arrive in the yellow Matt-painted zone from that earlier pic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Copy of my comment from elsewhere.



    Hawk what option do you choose? :) Some Albanians seem to strongly favor the second. TaktikatEMalet, Leki? But pretty much impossible. And no.2 is basically E-V13 as underclass under R1b and J2b2.
    I choose first option because like you said it really looks like Albanian is related to Messapian and in turn Messapians could have been heavy E-V13 Z5018.

    Second reason is that i believe the original IE Albanoids, might have lived in North Carpathian and in contact with E-V13 Z5018 groups who lived more in South and accepted their language who were more successful latter than the first original Albanoid group one who either went extinct or were assimilated by latter IE waves.

    There seems to be a consensus among Eqrem Cabej, Matzinger and Orel that Beskidy actually stems from Alb. Bjeshk which in turn means what Beskidy actually is: forest/mountain.



    I don't agree with the timeline which Orel puts for Albanian Urhemait, i think MBA to EIA makes sense, latter than that no. So, both Carpathians and Beskidy are some remnant words of a greater Albanoid language family, and this goes in line with the origin of E-V13 living just south of this location and intermingling with them to create a new symbiosis population and the actual Albanoid having heavy non IE influence just as Greek and Germanic considering that Germanics have a lot of I1, I2 and Greeks have a lot of J2.

    Add that John Bassett Trumper is of the opinion that Albanian must have lived in the proximity of Germanic and Celtic languages, let's say that those two populations were their Western neighbors, on the other hand Orel thought Albanian shared some things with Balto-Slavic and let's assume that Balto-Slavs were their North/Eastern neighbors then locating the Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age urhemait in and around Carpathian mountains makes sense.

    But, then again i am open to new possibilities of course. This are just assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes, views are often conflicting. They also had multiple influences.

    Speaking of migrations. Milutin Garasanin (btw he was E-V13 as he is of Bjelopavlic) map of LBA/EIA transition. Left arrow going down are the Brnjica group people reaching S.Albania, Korca basin. Right arrow is Mediana (and Paracin ?) people migration. You see they do arrive in the yellow Matt-painted zone from that earlier pic.
    Cremation on a pyre was a thing for that zone of Albania, among the Enchelei, among Epirotans, Ancient Macedonians. All in all there is no other way to explain this. There is not much of space.

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    Since i would most strongly associate the spread of E-V13 with Iron technology, do you have good sources and information on the introduction of Iron technology in Albania and surrounds? Does that fit with the split of the different subclades, between those of Balkan, Albania in particular, and the CE ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Since i would most strongly associate the spread of E-V13 with Iron technology, do you have good sources and information on the introduction of Iron technology in Albania and surrounds? Does that fit with the split of the different subclades, between those of Balkan, Albania in particular, and the CE ones.
    Aleksandar Stipcevic, a Croatian archeologist with Arbanasi ancestry critcized the so called authoctonist archeologists like some Yugoslav and Communist Albanian ones who refused any kind of Late Bronze Age influence in Albania which i really doubt it, considering Greece was flooded and the most likely proxy point was Albania itself where we see the practice of cremation on tumuli or pyres.

    Stipcevic was of the opinion that the picture was more complex and there is clear Danubian Urnfield influence. The Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thinks the Urnfield influence in South Albania came via Adriatic with ships, one group stopping in South Albania and the other group going further south in Greece. I am not sure how much credibility his theory has.

    I already linked a source where previously it was thought Liburnians practice was pure Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age continuum but then suddenly recently after good excavations cremations came into the scene which hints they were more mixed than previously thought.

    As for the materials, i don't have it, but i can take a look and come back to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    As for the materials, i don't have it, but i can take a look and come back to you.
    Thank you. As you know, there are country specific works in the local language or regional experts which are largely unknown to outsiders. So its always great if someone who is an "insider" can take a look beyond the language barrier. I'm particularly interested in the introduction of iron technology, especially iron weapons and the associated chronology and cultures for every region.

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    Ok, Aspurg was right, even Frano Prendi the Albanian Archeologist thinks Matt-Pottery Culture is related to the Central Balkans cultures like Belotic Bela Crkva, is this a similar culture to Dubovac-Zuto Brda?

    I think he says there is Early Bronze Age connection, but maybe he is wrong on the timeline.

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    My personal opinion so far, is that the Proto-Illyrians were a mixture of Tumulus Grave Culture known in German as Hügelgräberkultur from around the Alps and Incrusted Ware Culture from Transdanubia, the group that were pushed by Tumulus Culture went further east eventually forming Proto-Thracians by mixing with Gava people while the group that stayed forming the Proto-Illyrians and eventually pushing south.

    So, this is what Marija Gimbutas meant when she said Illyrians were formed by symbiosis of people from Koszider horizont and the earlier groups that were in Western/Central Balkans.

    We have even less information about the Middle Bronze Age population of the more southerly areasof western Transdanubia, the modern Zala County. West of the Kis-Balaton, the Period following theSomogyvár-Vinkovci culture seemed to be a ‘Dark Age’ lasting until the earliest phase of the TumulusGrave culture (Kovács 1984, 383; 1994a, 119; see also Horváth 1994, 219, Szõke 1995, 23; Šavel 1996,20; Bondár 1998, 21–23; Horváth 2000, 13). This hiatus in the cultural sequence was ‘filled’ by a fewresearchers by dating the earliest Tumulus Grave assemblages of the county – and a few similar findsfrom Vas, Gyõr-Moson-Sopron and Veszprém Counties – to the last phase of the Middle Bronze Age, theKoszider Period (Bóna 1992a, 40; Horváth 1994, 219; Honti 1994a, 11; Kiss 1997, 47; Ilon 1998–99,258; H. Simon–Horváth 1998–99, 202; Kiss 2000, 27; 2002, 491–492). Thus it seemed an acceptabletheory that in the Koszider Period, a new Tumulus Grave population infiltrated the westernmost areas ofTransdanubia from the west-northwest, from Lower Austria. This early Tumulus Grave populationtriggered the migration of the culture of Incrusted Ware (demonstrated by the burial of the Tolnanémeditype hoards); the remaining late Incrusted Ware groups, however, that stayed in place, became theneighbours of the new population – thus their distribution areas complement each other.When defining the material of the earliest Tumulus Grave groups in Trasdanubia, both T. Kovács andG. Vékony assigned great importance to the above-mentioned Litzenkeramik assemblages. According toKovács, the population using Litzenkeramik can be located in two closed distribution blocks (comp.Benkovsky-Pivovarová 1981a, Taf. 1): in the northwestern (in Burgenland and around Neusiedler See/LakeFertõ) and southern (in the Voivodina: Belegiš culture) part of the Carpathian Basin. Sporadically this typeof decoration may be found in other areas of Hungary as well, in the earliest assemblages of the TumulusGrave culture: at Székesfehérvár–Nyúldomb, Siklós–Téglagyár, Bag, Tiszafüred–Majoroshalom (Kovács1975a, 312–314; 1984, 383). In 1994, T. Kovács mentioned 35 sites with Litzenkeramik around NeusiedlerSee, along the river Leitha (Lajta) and scattered in the western half of the Carpathian Basin. Some of thesecome from closed assemblages, most of them are, however, stray finds and cannot be assigned to anyautonomous cultures (Kovács 1994b, 161–162; 1997, 299–300). After reviewing the sites in KomáromCounty, G. Vékony listed 57 sites belonging to the ‘Litzenkeramik, inseparable from the early TumulusGrave culture’ in the wider region of the Carpathian Basin (from Austria, eastern and western Hungary,Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) (Vékony 2000b, 177).

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18544789.pdf
    Around the time of the Thera eruption important transformations occurred in the Carpathian Basin, today coveringHungary and parts of Austria, Slovakia, the Ukraine, Romania, Serbia and Croatia (Fig. 1). This is the so-called KosziderPeriod, which corresponds to the last phase of the MiddleBronze Age (MBA) according to the Hungarian terminology,and represents a transition to the Late Bronze Age (LBA).The assessment of the period has been controversial amongboth Hungarian and central European scholars.The eponymous bronze hoards that had been found inthe uppermost layers of the tell settlement of DunaújvárosKosziderpadlás were published by A. Mozsolics and I. Bónain the 195os together with other hoards of similar composition. The burial of the hoards – based on the traditional concept of culture and then dated to 135o B.C. – was connectedto the attack of the mobile pastoralist warriors of the»Tumulus Culture« from southern Germany, whose appearance brought an end to the flourishing »Tell Cultures« of theDanube and Tisza regions1. Accordingly, the KosziderPeriod was considered a short, war-ridden and turbulentphase.In the past few years this period has been interpreted notas a short »horizon« connected to a specific historical event,but as a longer period that represented the heyday of theMBA in the Carpathian Basin, which ended with significanttransformations (Bóna 1992; Bóna 1992a). The main elements of this transformation, however, are still unclear. Ouraim below is to investigate this transformation through thecomparison of several aspects of three subsequent phases– the classic phase of the MBA (Reinecke Bronzezeit [hereafter: RB] A2b–c; ca. 18oo–16oo B.C.), its final phase, theKoszider Period (RB B; ca. 16oo–15oo/145o B.C.) and thebeginning of the LBA, the classic Tumulus Grave Period(RB C1–C2; ca. 15oo/145o–13oo B.C.) – and to amend thepreviously offered interpretations of the changes with a fewnew considerations.


    During the Early and Middle Bronze Age among communities using the same ceramic styles, burial rites do seem to bemore or less uniform: cremation is characteristically associated with the distribution areas of the Vatya, Hatvan andTransdanubian Encrusted Ware styles, while inhumation isdominant in the areas associated with Füzesabony (Otomani II) and Maros styles.

    In the Tumulus Grave Period a new element, the burialmound appears. Its occurrence in the Carpathian Basin wasconnected to the immigration of the »Tumulus Grave people«from southern Germany (Mozsolics 1957; Bóna 1958). However, based on the most recent data on the earliest appearance of mounds (e. g. at Borotice, Franzhausen and Jelšovce)it seems that this burial rite – together with the use of a specific ceramic style – spread from the area of modern-day western Slovakia, Austria, and Moravia to the east (Svätý Peter/Dolný Peter/Alsószentpéter) and west21.

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18406091.pdf

    And in turn what made the classical Illyrians is this Proto-Illyrian group and the earlier IE/non-IE population in Western/Central Balkans.
    Last edited by Hawk; 12-06-21 at 14:11.

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