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Thread: E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Ok, Aspurg was right, even Frano Prendi the Albanian Archeologist thinks Matt-Pottery Culture is related to the Central Balkans cultures like Belotic Bela Crkva, is this a similar culture to Dubovac-Zuto Brda?

    I think he says there is Early Bronze Age connection, but maybe he is wrong on the timeline.
    So, late bronze age influence doesn't hold ground at all. Matt-Pottery Culture is usually associated with Minyan Ware, Middle to Late Helladic.

    Making conclusions solely on images which point arrows toward that region is immature in my opinion.

    What i found out is that Encrusted Pottery Culture is descended from Nagyrev Culture, and in turn Nagyrev is a culture which ultimately stemms from Croatian Cardial Neolithic incomers, so this is potentially the connecting dots of E-L618 and E-V13. But i am still not somehow convinced. the E-V13 in Spain totally bugs me off. Then the yet further unprofiled E-M78 from France/Switzerland border, hence Michlesberger Culture.

    This is the Late Neolithic Bulgarian leaks, all Y-DNA were G2a. With the newly incoming R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya males during Chalcolithic. This makes sense, Bulgaria/Romania are too east, and they were highway of new migrants, you will get crushed eventually with the exception if you were a highly military civilization something which Early Neolithic people from Anatolia were not.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    ...if you were a highly military civilization something which Early Neolithic people from Anatolia were not.
    They were, especially GAC surely was, TCC wasn't defenseless either. Even LBK people built settlements in a specific pattern, sometimes quite clearly approaching a military bridgehead into HG territory. They truly colonised a continent, with or without friendly relations with the HGs, as far as they could. Both GAC and TCC crushed many opponents, destroyed other people and looted their homes. Actually, they even taught the steppe people some lessons. But at some point, similar to the Germanics and Slavs in Late Antiquity, something went wrong and the steppe people combined their advantages with that of their neighbours to the West, which made them superiour in the coming turmoil.

    Something similar happened, once more, in the LBA-EIA transition, which led to the Bronze Age collapse and the spread of many Northern groups, marching to the South. In one of these course of events E-V13 managed to rise to a higher level and replace other groups, same for I1 further North.

    In the case of TCC, they were worn down by constant attacks and after losing their allies, probably also caused by internal disruptions as well as the spread of Eastern steppe groups which caused Western ones to be no longer controllable by their alliance system.

    Concerning Romania, this country needs to be looked more closely and its basically two or three parts: West of the Carpathians, the Carpathian region in the narrower sense and East of the Carpathians. The region East of the Carpathians was the most vulnerable to steppe attacks, that's why it always needed a higher level organisation and culture to keep up with the competitors to the East. TCC was able to do so as long as they could keep their higher level organisation plus a system of alliances and trade with friendly steppe groups to the East, which formed a buffer. Similar to what Maykop did, in the East, with the steppe Maykop groups, which they even might have called in from Central Asia to a form a buffer to Para-Indo-European neighbours North of them.

    Looking for E-V13, we need to follow the Gava-South Eastern Urnfield movement, the introduction of Iron and looking for a more protected geographical region, while already moving away from those zones which being already tested and showed no sign of it. My personal opinion is still, that no matter were we start, we need to find a link to Belegiš II–Gava. Either directly from Gáva-Holigrady, or among the earlier Belegiš layers with which the newly incoming Northerners fused in the LBA-EIA transition.

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    We all agree your theory is elegant. I admit, i never thought about some details before which now i find them quite intriguing.

    What you all say, academics lump into Koszider hoards and Koszider phase/horizont.

    As for Neolithic, it would be cool if E-V13 was actually a Vinca Culture carrier. So far, it didn't show. It's like we used cremation for sure from times immemorial. That's quite a contrast with the belief of their pre-historic brother lineage Ancient Egyptian E-V22 where preserving the body was essential on their culture.

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    I really think the Koszider hoard is the main event of spreading E-V13, the western branch forming/influencing Illyrians and the eastern branch forming/influencing Thracians. There should be an earlier wave which i think it might be related to Dardanian and related mercenaries among Hittites/Myceneans.

    And the last wave should be the Iron Age wave of E-V13 Z5017 subclades.

    In the end, people can eat shit as much as they can but E-M35 lineages were the ones who made the biggest human revolution, hence agricultural revolution. That was the first step of setting ground for civilization.

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    This article written by Draga Garasanin is a very good read.

    https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dg...the_bronze.htm


    We have genetic and archeological evidence of E-V13 introduction in Greece, Bulgaria so far. And it's late Bronze Age, these probably further coalitioned with other people to pillage other Mediterranean countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    This article written by Draga Garasanin is a very good read.

    https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dg...the_bronze.htm


    We have genetic and archeological evidence of E-V13 introduction in Greece, Bulgaria so far. And it's late Bronze Age, these probably further coalitioned with other people to pillage other Mediterranean countries.
    What do we have from Greece? Did I miss something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What do we have from Greece? Did I miss something?
    No, the EIA leaks full of E-V13 was part of Psenicevo Culture which in turn was part of Dubovac-Zuto Brda/Grla Mare Culture. And we have archeological evidence of Dubovac people heading straight to Greece during the LBA collapse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No, the EIA leaks full of E-V13 was part of Psenicevo Culture which in turn was part of Dubovac-Zuto Brda/Grla Mare Culture. And we have archeological evidence of Dubovac people heading straight to Greece during the LBA collapse.
    Ah ok, so its not proven yet, because the relationship of these groups, especially Girla Mare if you mention it, is still doubtful and needs to be investigated. Because in those movements, different strains and groups contributed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ah ok, so its not proven yet, because the relationship of these groups, especially Girla Mare if you mention it, is still doubtful and needs to be investigated. Because in those movements, different strains and groups contributed.
    It's not doubtful, i would take with a grain of salt what that guy said about Brnjica, obviously the reason why he opposes is conflict of interest.

    Otherwise you wouldn't see an Albanian author talking about Brnjica Culture and the paper abstract published in German Archeological Institute.

    https://zenon.dainst.org/Record/001058762

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's not doubtful, i would take with a grain of salt what that guy said about Brnjica, obviously the reason why he opposes is conflict of interest.

    Otherwise you wouldn't see an Albanian author talking about Brnjica Culture and the paper abstract published in German Archeological Institute.

    https://zenon.dainst.org/Record/001058762
    The issue is rather that Girla Mare is probably about the third layer, not the top one, in the spread of the related cultural groups. I don't think it contributed E-V13 right now. I can't rule it out with certainty neither, but I just don't think its the likely source. I guess they contributed, but rather to the maternal side of the expanding cultures around Channelled Ware and especially Belegiš II-Gâva. The main reason why I can't exclude it completely is that there was mutual exchange between the different groups, so its hard to follow the genealogy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The issue is rather that Girla Mare is probably about the third layer, not the top one, in the spread of the related cultural groups. I don't think it contributed E-V13 right now. I can't rule it out with certainty neither, but I just don't think its the likely source. I guess they contributed, but rather to the maternal side of the expanding cultures around Channelled Ware and especially Belegi� II-G�va. The main reason why I can't exclude it completely is that there was mutual exchange between the different groups, so its hard to follow the genealogy.
    I rather think all of the them, inter-related cultures were packed with E-V13 no matter what was the ultimate source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I rather think all of the them, inter-related cultures were packed with E-V13 no matter what was the ultimate source.
    I don't think so, because some of them were in the region for longer and had relations which would have produced results already, in the ancient DNA record, if that connection would be valid. The big shift came with the latest waves at the LBA-EIA transition, and this is therefore also the most likely source, not earlier groups, which might have had some small percentages too, but were not the source or primary spreader.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I don't think so, because some of them were in the region for longer and had relations which would have produced results already, in the ancient DNA record, if that connection would be valid. The big shift came with the latest waves at the LBA-EIA transition, and this is therefore also the most likely source, not earlier groups, which might have had some small percentages too, but were not the source or primary spreader.
    What we are sure so far is that Psenicevo-Babadag Culture was exclusively E-V13, so you need to go backwards in order to deduce what other cultures were packed with E-V13, and logic brings us to all of the Koszider hoards moving in lower Danube during Middle Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    What we are sure so far is that Psenicevo-Babadag Culture was exclusively E-V13, so you need to go backwards in order to deduce what other cultures were packed with E-V13, and logic brings us to all of the Koszider hoards moving in lower Danube during Middle Bronze Age.
    Of course, but the problem with those, for me, is why the Pannonian study didn't pick E-V13 up. Its possible they just missed it by some centuries, because they didn't go all the way and in all regions to the MBA-LBA, but we have to wait and see. They were in any case not the last to leave an impression. You see no relationship of Psenicevo-Babadag with any kind of Channelled Ware/Fluted Ware group? I saw distribution maps for those which did encompass or at least touch their territory, to which they could have made it in the IA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Of course, but the problem with those, for me, is why the Pannonian study didn't pick E-V13 up. Its possible they just missed it by some centuries, because they didn't go all the way and in all regions to the MBA-LBA, but we have to wait and see. They were in any case not the last to leave an impression. You see no relationship of Psenicevo-Babadag with any kind of Channelled Ware/Fluted Ware group? I saw distribution maps for those which did encompass or at least touch their territory, to which they could have made it in the IA.
    All i can find is scattered archeological papers about these cultures, i have no deep informations about Channeled Ware/Flutted Ware and Encrusted Pottery Culture, how much difference did they have or similarities.

    I guess Aspar and/or Aspurg can have a more thorough saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    All i can find is scattered archeological papers about these cultures, i have no deep informations about Channeled Ware/Flutted Ware and Encrusted Pottery Culture, how much difference did they have or similarities.

    I guess Aspar and/or Aspurg can have a more thorough saying.
    The most important fact is that they were widespread on both sides of the Carpathians and seem to have had a fairly direct impact and continuity into the developed Iron Age, oftentimes the first to introduce iron tools and especially weapons in the first place, being all closely related to other Urnfield cultures and inspired by the centre of the fairly developed culture of Gava. They pretty much, from my understanding so far, were fused with the somewhat earlier Encrusted Ware groups, which were, one could say, one stratum earlier.

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    I shared this 1 year ago.

    Abstract:Burials in settlements are a particular funerary phenomenon, documented worldwide, in different ages and contexts. Archaeologically speaking, burials consist of skeletons or parts of human skeletons, in or not in anatomical position, deposited in disused habitat structures (pits, dwellings). In this article we have catalogued the finds in the area between the Balkans, Dnestr and Tisza Rivers from 53 EIA sites (broadly 12th-8th c. BC) with 226 contexts for human bones from at least 512 individuals. All this data reveals the existence of common funerary conduct(s) whose final result was deposition of the dead in settlements. Such conduct exhibits some similarities and even somewhat the intersects with the standard ritual of burials in actual cemeteries. According to the same data, the selection of these individuals does not seem to have relied on malformations, diseases, age or sex.
    In the northern Balkans, at the end of the 2nd millennium and beginning of the 1st millennium BC, classic cultural manifestations of the Middle and Late Bronze Age (Monteoru, Noua, Coslogeni, Suciu de Sus, Žuto-Brdo–Gârla Mare, Cruceni-Belegiš, Zimnicea-Plovdiv etc.) come to an end and new ones take shape. Despite the emergence of the first iron artefacts, this is the peak of bronze metallurgy and of the deposition of bronze artefacts in ritual contexts. The area we’ve selected for the study of this category of findings corresponds to the dissemina-tion of several early Hallstattian archaeological cultures with grooved pottery (Bistreţ-Işalniţa, Gáva-Hol idrad y, C hiş inău-Corl ăteni etc .), but a lso wit h st amp ed and incised pottery (Pšeničevo, Babadag, Insula Banului, Gornea-Kalakača, Belozerka, Cozia, Saharna-Solonceni), which are a variation of the funerary ritual (Vulpe 2008). Nevertheles, in the entire area, in various proportions, probably due to the extent of the investigations in the settlements, intramuros graves were also found.
    rom the catalogued sites, most of them (cat. no. 1, 3-6, 10, 14, 19, 21-22, 28-30, 33-35, 37, 45-46, 51-53) were ascribed to Gáva culture, most of the information concerning burials in settlements coming from r ather re cent f inds i n the i ntr a-Carpathi an reg ion, up t o Tisza River. Other such finds are concentrated at the Lower Danube, mostly ascribed to Babadag culture (cat. no. 2, 7-9, 11-12, 16-17, 24, 27, 31, 36, 38, 41, 43); in our opinion, the site at Tămăoani can be ascribed to Belozerka culture (see Ailincăiet alii 2014) (cat. no. 48). The finds from Upper and Middle Dnestr were ascribed both to Saharna-Solonceni culture (cat. no. 15, 39-40) and Černoles culture (cat. no. 20, 23, 50); the finds at Ostrovul Corbului, Gomolava and Nov i Sad wer e included in the are al of K ala kač a cu ltur e, and the finds from Sava, Karanovo and Svilengrad are probably part of Pšeničevo culture. A special place among these finds is held by the settlement from Tărtăria, characterized by Basarabi-style decorated pottery (Graphic 1).

    We saw from leaks that Svilengrad during Early Iron Age was dominated by E-V13, so we can talk with certainty that they were part of Psenicevo-Babadag Culture. In addition, it's interesting how Philistines had sort of similar burials, pits and cremations.


    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...sza_and_Dnestr


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    It must have spreaded in Europe only about 2000 - 1500 years ago. So probably the beginning of its spread in the northern Mediterranean was due to the Roman Empire that picked it up from North Africa - Egipt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by celt View Post
    It must have spreaded in Europe only about 2000 - 1500 years ago. So probably the beginning of its spread in the northern Mediterranean was due to the Roman Empire that picked it up from North Africa - Egipt.
    It wasn't even in North Africa at that time, with the possible exception of some Greek and Roman settlers in Egypt. So that scenario is rather absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I shared this 1 year ago.

    We saw from leaks that Svilengrad during Early Iron Age was dominated by E-V13, so we can talk with certainty that they were part of Psenicevo-Babadag Culture. In addition, it's interesting how Philistines had sort of similar burials, pits and cremations.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...sza_and_Dnestr
    I don't doubt that, the question is rather how they came up in the first place. Going deeper, I see the big impact of Fluted Ware, as its called for Bulgaria in particular, which is part of the Channelled Ware horizon and related, at least culturally, to the centre of Gava:
    The Zimnicea-Novgrad is considered as “a totally different entity in comparison with the other groups”, i. e. the “Cannelure Hallstatt” community (Gumă 1995: 109), especially for its burial rite. But, the basic type of Zimnicea-Novgrad pottery ornamentation is cannelure, or fluted ornamentation (Alexandrescu 1978: 117-119; Gumă 1995: 131, pl. XIII). According to A. Alexandrescu, “the cannelures are regular décor” of Zimnicea-Novgrad cups (Alexandrescu 1978: 117). Also, these cups (or mugs) are the basic type of Zimnicea-Novgrad pottery; they have the form of truncated cone or hemisphere. M. Guma said that “the cups with higher and flat handles (of Zimnicea-Novgrad – A. R.), decorated by longitudinal flutes are similar with those from Vajuga representing the second stage of the Hinova-Mala Vrbica group” (Gumă 1995: 110).
    So, in spite of presence of some incised ornamentation, it seems more plausible that Zimnicea-Novgrad culture belonged to the "cultures with fluted ornamentation of pottery". The first researcher of Zimnicea cemetery compared its ceramics with such cultures of "cannelure Hallstatt" as Vyrtop, Meri, Suseni (Alexandrescu 1978: 123).
    But there was also this group:
    But, Saharna-Solonceni culture is characterized by almost total absence of fluted ornamentation (Кашуба 2000: 313). Fluted ornamentation is very rare in the Kozia culture also (Laszlo 1972: 214-215; Iconomu 1996). Thus, we cannot suppose that Zimnicea-Novgrad took part in the genesis Saharna-Solonceni or Kozia cultures.
    However:
    The Sboreanovo group is defined usually as part of “Cultures with Stamped ornamentation of Pottery” of Northern Bulgaria. Fluted ornamentation of pottery, however, is also a typical or even dominant feature for Sboreanovo group (Гоцев, Шалганова 2004: 60-61; Czyborra 2005: 173). Besides, the main type of Sboreanovo vessel (Czyborra 2005: 99-101) is the so called ‘cantaros’ (as well as Zimnicea-Plovdiv pottery (Alexandrescu 1973: 77-78, 81)). The ‘cantaros’ is a big vessel with two handles and open mouth; this kind of vessel is found neither in Kozia, nor in Saharna-Solonceni.
    Evidently, it looks more probable that the Vyrbitsa tradition of bronze axes production was brought into the Carpathian-Dniester region by some population belonging to the "cannelure Hallstatt" community. It could be the Hinova-Mala Vrbica group. It seems to be a more preferable idea, as we see some other metalware (bracelets and fibulas) in the Carpathian-Dniester region that seem to be associated with the coming of Hinova-Mala Vrbica population. The Hinova-Mala Vrbica group made a substantial contribution to the origin of Kishinev-Korlateni culture (Guma 1995: 108).

    There is some other argument to this idea. As it follows from the mapping of V. A. Dergachev, the “axes with vertical lines” were spread in three areas chiefly: in central and western parts of Northern Bulgaria, in the Carpathian-Dniester region and in Transylvania – in the area of Gava culture (Dergacev 2002: 167-169, taf.123), The Gava culture is a “culture with fluted ornamentation of pottery” too.
    It is really important that “axes with vertical lines” from the Carpathian-Dniester region and Transylvania have a special ring at the back side. This distinguishes them from the “Bulgarian” variant of “axes with vertical lines”. The “Bulgarian” variant of “axes with vertical lines” has no rings (as V. A. Dergachev points out, “isolated evidences” of axes “with ring” were found in Northern Bulgaria) (Dergacev 2002: 168, taf.123).
    But “axes with vertical lines” from area of Hinova-Mala Vrbica group have this ring as well.
    V. A. Dergachev suggested that these “axes with vertical lines and a special ring” appeared as a result of some synthesis of Transylvania and Northern Bulgaria metalwork traditions (Дергачев 1997: 58; Dergacev 2002: 168).
    Where did this synthesis take place? We can suppose that it was the Hinova-Mala Vrbica area.
    Thus, the “axes with vertical lines and a special ring” were spread in the “cultures with fluted ornamentation of pottery” mainly. And, as it results from the mapping (Dergacev 2002: taf. 123;
    I think that all these facts bring the idea that sickles and axes of Vyrbitsa type spread in the Carpathian-Dniester region simultaneously. It was in the first half of Ha A1, when Noua culture was replaced by Kishinev-Korlateni (see: Дергачев, Бочкарев 2002: 236). And just the Kishinev-Korlateni people brought this tradition.
    It was pointed out that an axe and a piece of casting-form of Vyrbitsa tradition were found in the Radovanu settlement (Uşurelu 2003: 216). The “Radovanu facies” (or “Late Koslogeny culture”, as many researchers refer to it) is supposed to be the ancestor of “Cultures with Incised Ornamentation of Pottery” community in the Lower Danube and Carpathian-Dniester regions (including such early groups as Sihleanu-Rimnicele, Tamaoani, Holerkani-Hanska, Balta). Thus, this is considered as evidence that early groups of “Cultures with Incised Ornamentation of Pottery” community in the Lower Danube region were a main and direct heir of the Vyrbitsa metalwork tradition (Uşurelu 2003: 217).
    But more important is the fact that in Dobruja and Muntenia "the Late Bronze Age tradition of metal production came abruptly to the end simultaneously with the end of Koslogeny culture and with penetration of Pre-Babadag or Babadag I here" (Дергачев 1997: 50).
    So, it looks like the Babadag culture was a newcomer in the Lower Danube area.
    https://www.academia.edu/4338117/Axe...es_Ha_A_Ha_B1_

    A new period in Thrace, referred to as the Early Iron Age, started with general changes in many aspects of the local Late Bronze Age culture: pottery style, burial rites, and metal types. At the same time, all of the features of this period bear similarities to the previous period, supporting the theory of a gradual, though short transition between the two ages. The first phase of the Early Iron Age, called Fluted ware horizon, started with the LH IIIC period and continued through the Protogeometric period, according to Aegean periodisation. The LH IIIC is still the Late Bronze Age in the Aegean, and following the direction of the spread of iron technology from south to north, it would be more correct to consider this phase a transitional period than a real Iron Age. ‘The horizon of the fluted ware’ is characterised by decreased contacts with the Aegean region. Simultaneously Thrace became strongly dependent on the Carpatho-Danubian region because of its potential to provide metal sources. This development is most visible in the new pottery style that appeared throughout Thrace. At this time, limited traces of migration are visible in the archaeological records, both within Thrace (the cremation burial at Manole) and from Thrace (the site of Troia), with movement in the direction northwest to southeast. The real Iron Age starts with the next phase, called Psenicevo, when contacts with the Aegean were restored and became more evident than ever before. Thrace became part of the geometric koine, recalling the situation during the Late Bronze Age.
    On the other hand, Psenicevo is very similar to the Ostrov, Basarabi and Babadag groups to the north and should be contemporary with them. In general, the first stage of Psenicevo should be synchronised with Ostrov and Babadag II, and the second stage with Basarabi and Babadag III. These pottery styles mark the geometric koine during the Early Iron Age, a result of restored contacts between the Balkans and the Aegean region, as well as the return of Greece and Anatolia to a leading role during this period.
    https://www.academia.edu/7794465/Thr...ures_in_Thrace

    The issue is, that the Channelled Ware horizon encompassed practically all areas which later appear E-V13 heavy and gave birth to Incised Ware groups or at least heavily influenced them. Psenicova, with its proven presence of high levels of E-V13, just proves that "it happened" at that time already, which was a given, because the Fluted Ware horizon rolled over the country before. But this doesn't answer the question as to whether E-V13 was part of a Gava subgroup, a Belegis subgroup, or another one taking part in the Channelled Ware horizon. It just proves that after the Channelled Ware horizon, unlike before, E-V13 was present and strong in areas like Svilengrad, in groups like Psenicevo. That's like looking at post-Bell Beaker cultures and stating that R1b was now in Western Europe. My guess is that for most of the regions involved the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon and early Hallstatt were for E-V13 similar to Bell Beakers for R1b in Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    LOL. You must begin your post by a display of utter degeneracy? Out of multiple studies of Romanians, you cherry-picked up a sample where E-V13 is at its lowest, and then you parade this sample of 54 Romanians as if it represents the entire population. This a sample from Romanian Moldova. But overall there are almost 900 Romanian FTDNA/Dante and scientific study samples from multiple regions of Romania and E-V13 overall stands at 15 %. Also in Bulgaria/Romania J-L283 + R-M269, L51- do not reach the V13 %. Far from it. In Albania they do.
    They are thus far pretty pure in V13. If we add Getae, and they too were Thracian, 5/6. By "pure" I mean only spreaders of the language here ofc.
    There is some E-V13 diversity and increased % in Western Ukraine, presumably much of that are remnants of some Free Dacian groups. Again even in Russia, Tatarstan there is some percentage of E-V13, looks to be higher than in Slovenia.
    There are other factors that make the usage of modern day percentages as unsound. First is massive Slavic expansion, and for example Albania is one of the most Slavic-free places Y-DNA wise. So first one has to remove such influence..
    I do not claim that all V13 are Thracian, but that significant portion of it took part in Thracian ethnogenesis.
    E-V13 comes from the Western Balkans in the Neolithic, for a long time E-V13 haters tried to present E-V13 as some Pelasgian slaves, farmers, but a lineage so strong in MBA, LBA, EIA couldn't have been the one playing second fiddle to J-L283 or R-Z2103.
    We left our lands, for proto-Illyrians to occupy them. We made our home elsewhere and we were the bosses. You for emotional reasons want to be firmly tied to Southern-western Balkan area even if it means that you willingly accept being a 3rd rate Illyrian, 1st rate Illyrian is an invader of the Western Balkans, not the native. (such as J-L283 or R-Z2103) IE or any other strong group expanding were invaders so for V13 to be an invader it must expand from elsewhere. Purely by logic its TMRCA and spread suggests that was the case and so does the aDNA.
    Denying V13 its rightful place in ethnogenesis processes is slander. I've seen much of that. And whoever is a proud V13 will not be allowing it. And unfortunately, whether its an enormous desire to be Illyrian no matter what or more Illyrian than other hg's (some Albanian V13), or whether its pure hatred in the case of some others (non V13 mostly ofc as displayed by this Romanian here).
    Before you call what I say nonsense show me proof of this 900 romanian y dna study, give me the link. 15% is still far too low to suggest thracians were pure v13 in iron age, that it utter nonsense. Give me the modern dna link and also ancient dna

    I dont care about proud or denying anything, im here looking for facts. In written history it is said thracians were blue eyed redheads - there is absolutely 0% chance they were 100% v13, they were likely r1a/b or i m223 which actually peaks in romania today

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Before you call what I say nonsense show me proof of this 900 romanian y dna study, give me the link. 15% is still far too low to suggest thracians were pure v13 in iron age, that it utter nonsense. Give me the modern dna link and also ancient dna

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/


    http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblo...n%20sample.pdf


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...44622310000891


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16759179/


    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0053731


    You should already know of this, otherwise you shouldn't post about things you have no clue of.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    In written history it is said thracians were blue eyed redheads - there is absolutely 0% chance they were 100% v13, they were likely r1a/b or i m223 which actually peaks in romania today

    Eye color mutations and other traits are subjected to selection process. Even Sardinians have plenty of light eyes, and by your logic they shouldnt have any.


    Ancient DNA suggests that Thrace was populated by more Northern non-Thracian people prior to Thracian expansion so some of it may refer to that. But Iron Age Thracians were alot more Southern genetically than MBA and EIA Illyrians. Illyrians clustered with Northern Italians, not Albanians, especially once 25 % of Slavic admixture in Albanians is removed, Albanians cluster nowhere near the Illyrians.

    It is possible more Southern Illyrians were more Southern due to V13 admixture.


    Romanian R1a of that can be identified is all Slavic, few Turkic. I-M223 has nothing to with Thracians, one of its clades is Luwian/Anatolian related, its 2.47 %. Most R1b in Romanians is Western L51, much of it Roman. Very little of R-Z2103 in Romania, and most of it arrived from the South less than 1000 years ago.


    Of that Romanian Peatra Niamt sample you cherry-picked where E-V13 is under 6%. It's totally our of context.
    Of 56.
    39.3 % is I-Y3120 , Slavic, non-Dacian
    19.6 % is R1a Slavic, non-Dacian
    7.1 % is R-U106 Germanic, non-Dacian
    3.6 % is R-FG668, Roman cluster with Italians, non-Dacian
    3.6 % is I1, Germanic, non-Dacian
    1 is E-M81, non-Dacian
    One is Roma H...


    Overall of people who could be of Dacian origin in that sample E-V13 makes up 33 %. On that sample Slavic, Germanic ancestry is 70 %.


    Original Thracian linguistic carriers seem to have been R-Z280, but their clade found in Gava culture doesn't seem to exist in the Balkans anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I dont care about proud or denying anything, im here looking for facts.

    Then why don't you stop posting nonsense?


    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Through anatolia/middle east along with r1b z2103 in the form of what became proto illyrians. V13 was likely more numerous


    ...
    E and j2b are clearly not typical western european lines - i currently believe the proto illyrians came through anatolia and pushed all the way to western balkans where they settled. They likely carried e-v13 and r1b z2103.


    ..
    Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1).




    It doesnt make sense for v13 to survive more amongst albanians instead of lets say bulgarians and yet be of thracian origin. The thracians were decimated by romans (and illyrians) - romans placed large amounts of troops to hold it down as they often did for regions FAR from Rome like Britain. This is why you find plenty of roman y dna in places like east europe and britain but where then diminished by south slavs and anglo saxons respectively. It is extremelly important that they not only became latinized but a lot of them lost their language completely


    Thracians were almost wiped clean out - those that survived were diminished further by south slavs. There is very little red hair in Albanians where v13 is strong yet there is plenty more blonde (with only 7% i1). You need to understand that the thracians lost everything, land, language, genetics, appearance - you will never see an ancient group survive an invasion with a complete change of language - those that have sustained a language over vast periods of time usually have more continuity in terms of genetics


    As things stand right now I would suggest v13 and r1b z2103 are strongest candidates for illyrian expansion but we need ancient dna to confirm. Can you give me access to the bulgarian database?

    E-V13 has nothing to do with any BA related migrations from Anatolia.


    E-L618 was in Neolithic Dalmatia long before Illyrians existed let alone migrated to Balkans. In Southern Albania E-L618 line was found.


    E-V13 was in the Balkans 7000 years ago, 6000 years ago, 5000 years ago, 4000 years ago, 3000 years ago...


    If E-V13 is generally Illyrian then they are just Berber (or Etruscan) speaking locals who were forced to learn to speak the Illyrian language by the J-L283/R-Z2103. They are as Illyrian as most Anatolian J2a are Turkic, as most Balkan E-V13 are Slavic etc.


    And no Thracians didn't lose all, Bessian language is attested as alive in 5th century AD, long after any Illyrian language is attested, part of the reason Albanian is being considered descended of Bessian by Schramm.


    Vast total majority of Illyrians were romanized as attested by onomastic and archeological evidence.

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    asspurg, Have you tried singing aberrations at other tables as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/
    http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblo...n%20sample.pdf
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...44622310000891
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16759179/
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0053731
    You should already know of this, otherwise you shouldn't post about things you have no clue of.
    Eye color mutations and other traits are subjected to selection process. Even Sardinians have plenty of light eyes, and by your logic they shouldnt have any.
    Ancient DNA suggests that Thrace was populated by more Northern non-Thracian people prior to Thracian expansion so some of it may refer to that. But Iron Age Thracians were alot more Southern genetically than MBA and EIA Illyrians. Illyrians clustered with Northern Italians, not Albanians, especially once 25 % of Slavic admixture in Albanians is removed, Albanians cluster nowhere near the Illyrians.
    It is possible more Southern Illyrians were more Southern due to V13 admixture.
    Romanian R1a of that can be identified is all Slavic, few Turkic. I-M223 has nothing to with Thracians, one of its clades is Luwian/Anatolian related, its 2.47 %. Most R1b in Romanians is Western L51, much of it Roman. Very little of R-Z2103 in Romania, and most of it arrived from the South less than 1000 years ago.
    Of that Romanian Peatra Niamt sample you cherry-picked where E-V13 is under 6%. It's totally our of context.
    Of 56.
    39.3 % is I-Y3120 , Slavic, non-Dacian
    19.6 % is R1a Slavic, non-Dacian
    7.1 % is R-U106 Germanic, non-Dacian
    3.6 % is R-FG668, Roman cluster with Italians, non-Dacian
    3.6 % is I1, Germanic, non-Dacian
    1 is E-M81, non-Dacian
    One is Roma H...
    Overall of people who could be of Dacian origin in that sample E-V13 makes up 33 %. On that sample Slavic, Germanic ancestry is 70 %.
    Original Thracian linguistic carriers seem to have been R-Z280, but their clade found in Gava culture doesn't seem to exist in the Balkans anymore.
    Then why don't you stop posting nonsense?
    E-V13 has nothing to do with any BA related migrations from Anatolia.
    E-L618 was in Neolithic Dalmatia long before Illyrians existed let alone migrated to Balkans. In Southern Albania E-L618 line was found.
    E-V13 was in the Balkans 7000 years ago, 6000 years ago, 5000 years ago, 4000 years ago, 3000 years ago...
    If E-V13 is generally Illyrian then they are just Berber (or Etruscan) speaking locals who were forced to learn to speak the Illyrian language by the J-L283/R-Z2103. They are as Illyrian as most Anatolian J2a are Turkic, as most Balkan E-V13 are Slavic etc.
    And no Thracians didn't lose all, Bessian language is attested as alive in 5th century AD, long after any Illyrian language is attested, part of the reason Albanian is being considered descended of Bessian by Schramm.
    Vast total majority of Illyrians were romanized as attested by onomastic and archeological evidence.
    Absolute nonsense, basarabs have nothing to do with thracians they were already gone 1000 years before. And the final link you gave me shows romanians having 5.6% v13 which is the same as the link i gave you so there is the consistancy yet you ridicule my link

    So i ask once more give me the database that shows 15%+ v13 in romanians or stop posting

    As for romanised you realise that romanian is a latin language and named after the romans you utter clown? Albanian has much less latin influence than romanian which falls under the latin language tree with italian, spanish etc. If you want to talk about written history talk about how thracians were always described as blue eyed redheads

    Thracians as proved by eastern europe y dna today were almost completely wiped out - whereas in west balkans we find huge amounts of dna that has nothing to do with south slavs or later incomers and therefore belongs to ancient balkan groups. No one knows about illyrian language because it was never written, they werent intellects they were barbaric/primitive people

  24. #99
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it's reasonable to classify E-V13 as an Y-DNA with origin in Southern Central Europe. I mean it fits like a glove.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I think it's reasonable to classify E-V13 as an Y-DNA with origin in Southern Central Europe. I mean it fits like a glove.
    True, but that's still quite a wide range of possibilities. The remaining big questions are:
    - Which culture brought the ancestor of E-V13 to Europe (imho Cardial Ware)
    - Which culture carried it into Central Europe (imho Lengyel-Sopot)
    - Which culture harboured it in the steppe people conquering period (imho either a descendent of Lengyel-Sopot or Tripolye-Cucuteni)
    - Which culture spread it down towards the Balkans (imho Belegis-Gava/Channelled Ware -> Incrusted Pottery in the EIA)

    The main open question to me in this context is where it first grew before entereing the Channelled Ware and Incrusted Pottery groups.

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