E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

What you should rather focus is this
View attachment 12731

Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

My proposal is
yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.

There are several Armenian Dna study that prove that Armenians did not come from Balkans.


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There are several Armenian Dna study that prove that Armenians did not come from Balkans.

What study? They show some EEF related ancestry (Balkan auDNA had strong EEF component).

Where do they come from then?

Armenian language is related to Greek and Albanian.

Btw I mentioned Phrygians here, not Armenians. One of these two major R-Z2103 clades Armenians have is likely Phrygian and not proto-Armenian related.
 
Copy of my comment from elsewhere.

In this scheme E-V13 clades joined possibly the R-Z2705 carriers in Mediana III phase where Pshenichevo element dominated. We already know what hg Pshenichevo people belonged to mostly.


In this scheme J-L283 is Glasinac-Mati related (which it is surely), while E-V13 is Kuc i Zi and Messapian related. And therefore E-V13 is more Albanian than J-L283..


Btw these migrations to Southern Albania are just about the only way to explain the coming of E-V13 from an archeological POV. Anything else is
2) saying V13 was forever in Albania since the Neolithic and it spreads from there in BA, IA
3) V13 arrived to Albania in Late Antiquity/Early Medieval times.


So anybody can choose his favorite option. I'd choose no 1. for the majority.

Hawk what option do you choose? :) Some Albanians seem to strongly favor the second. TaktikatEMalet, Leki? But pretty much impossible. And no.2 is basically E-V13 as underclass under R1b and J2b2.
 
What study? They show some EEF related ancestry (Balkan auDNA had strong EEF component).

Where do they come from then?

Armenian language is related to Greek and Albanian.

Btw I mentioned Phrygians here, not Armenians. One of these two major R-Z2103 clades Armenians have is likely Phrygian and not proto-Armenian related.

Maybe you have missed this:

Up until recently, it was hypothesized that the Armenian people migrated from the Balkans into the Armenian Highlands, based on a passage by Herodotus in the 5th century BC claiming a kinship between Armenians and Phrygians. However, the results of a 2020 study on Armenian genetics "strongly reject" this long-standing narrative, and shows that Armenians are genetically distinct from the ancient populations of the Balkans.

https://web.archive.org/web/2020081....org/content/10.1101/2020.06.24.168781v1.full



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But cremation at Glasinac was introduced by the Urnielders. Based on what we know now, it is not likely V13 were among them. Most likely R-L51 and we do have some strong diversity of R-L51 in Bosnia/Serbia. It is more likely there were some local pre-Urnfield V13 among Glasinac people (such as the E-Y37092 clades, among them only BY14150 seems Thracian related).

Urnfielders used cremation but so did the Vatina, Garla-mare and related cultures. Enchelei are very interesting and quite possibly E-v13 related but their cremation traditions were probably of different origin to those at Glasinac. Also Glasinac people generally resisted the Urnfield wave.

Liburnian cremation again was of Western Urnfield origin. R1b likely Venetic speakers.

What you should rather focus is this
View attachment 12731

Look at this map. Illyrians were divided in two groups archeologically. The Norhtern one (brown) was generally Glasinac related. Most likely dominately J-L283. And that is suggested by aDNA, Dalmatian J-L283 find (pre proto-Glasinac), rumored N.Albanian MBA/LBA J-L283 find.

Southern Albanian areas were dominated by the Matt-Painted pottery (yellow). This is where there is some very strong E-V13 diversity of clades having LBA relatives to the North, this is where there were migrations of Brnjica and Mediana types.

And you see this pottery dominates Messapian areas. Per Ratzinger Messapians and Glasinac Illyrians were not same. And Albanian language leans far more towards Messapian direction.

Possibly Southern Albania was populated prior to LBA by the Phrygians (likely R-Z2103, Armenian clades).

My proposal is
yellow - significant E-V13 % (Kuc i Zi etc., plenty of LBA/EIA migrants from the North)
brown - dominance of J-L283 (Glasinac-Mati)

Ofc some presence of the other hg in other areas.. Enchelei that you mention, and I agree with you there, fit ofc in yellow zone.

So actually J-L283 looks more Glasinac, but the Albanian language is more Messapian related and per this it shows more of E-V13 (and ofc likely R-Z2705) connection.

I cannot say much about this, i am going to come back at you when i do a research on Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and the connections it has so i understand the chronology.
 
Significance and interpretation


The importance of matt-painted pottery lies foremost in the key role assigned to it by archaeologists regarding the question of ethnic movements in central and northern Greece during the Bronze Age.
Hence, R.J. Buck (1964, 280) saw the emergence of matt-painted pottery as evidence of an immigrating people known at the time as the “Minyans”, and F. Matz linked their derivation with the essential ethnogenesis of the Greeks themselves (1962, 162). 2 Similarly, the derivation of matt-painted pottery is seen in close association with the “Illyrian people” in Albania. Thus, Prendi explains the appearance of matt-painted pottery in the Devoll valley as the continuous indigenous development of the Illyrians, which would predate that in Macedonia and Epirus and – emanating from Albania – would have influenced these regions. 3 N.G.L. Hammond (1967, 390), on the contrary, connects the dissemination of matt-painted pottery with immigration of the Dorians and postulates a movement of transhumant shepherds from Epirus through Macedonia. J. Vokotopoulou (1986, 255 ff.) views Late Bronze Age matt-painted pottery in Macedonia as the result of a migration of “Macedonian tribes” from central Greece to the north and northeast.


The merging of the many different geographical and chronological categories of pottery in one term has led to confusion, on the one hand, while, on the other, it implies an intentional or unintentional contextual association of all. De facto not every piece of pottery with dull, lustreless, i.e. matt painting can be assigned automatically to the category of mattpainted pottery. And in any case, it should be distinguishable from mattpainted pottery through the terminology.




http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/index.php?p=article&id_art=8

So, who are the matt-painted pottery culture? Some say they formed the later Proto-Greek tribes (Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians?), other say they formed Illyrians from Albania. Hard to say.

How did you come to conclusion that this culture was heavily influenced by Mediana group?
 
1x6Ihi7.png


d7wbViX.png



https://books.google.de/books?id=4k...=matt-painted pottery culture mediana&f=false
 
So, who are the matt-painted pottery culture? Some say they formed the later Proto-Greek tribes (Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians?), other say they formed Illyrians from Albania. Hard to say.

How did you come to conclusion that this culture was heavily influenced by Mediana group?

Yes, views are often conflicting. They also had multiple influences.

Speaking of migrations. Milutin Garasanin (btw he was E-V13 as he is of Bjelopavlic) map of LBA/EIA transition. Left arrow going down are the Brnjica group people reaching S.Albania, Korca basin. Right arrow is Mediana (and Paracin ?) people migration. You see they do arrive in the yellow Matt-painted zone from that earlier pic.
LBA-EIA-transition-Balkans.jpg
 
Copy of my comment from elsewhere.



Hawk what option do you choose? :) Some Albanians seem to strongly favor the second. TaktikatEMalet, Leki? But pretty much impossible. And no.2 is basically E-V13 as underclass under R1b and J2b2.

I choose first option because like you said it really looks like Albanian is related to Messapian and in turn Messapians could have been heavy E-V13 Z5018.

Second reason is that i believe the original IE Albanoids, might have lived in North Carpathian and in contact with E-V13 Z5018 groups who lived more in South and accepted their language who were more successful latter than the first original Albanoid group one who either went extinct or were assimilated by latter IE waves.

There seems to be a consensus among Eqrem Cabej, Matzinger and Orel that Beskidy actually stems from Alb. Bjeshk which in turn means what Beskidy actually is: forest/mountain.

8cc1c9ef869310f5c3d0eea3fe426c4e.png


I don't agree with the timeline which Orel puts for Albanian Urhemait, i think MBA to EIA makes sense, latter than that no. So, both Carpathians and Beskidy are some remnant words of a greater Albanoid language family, and this goes in line with the origin of E-V13 living just south of this location and intermingling with them to create a new symbiosis population and the actual Albanoid having heavy non IE influence just as Greek and Germanic considering that Germanics have a lot of I1, I2 and Greeks have a lot of J2.

Add that John Bassett Trumper is of the opinion that Albanian must have lived in the proximity of Germanic and Celtic languages, let's say that those two populations were their Western neighbors, on the other hand Orel thought Albanian shared some things with Balto-Slavic and let's assume that Balto-Slavs were their North/Eastern neighbors then locating the Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age urhemait in and around Carpathian mountains makes sense.

But, then again i am open to new possibilities of course. This are just assumptions.
 
Yes, views are often conflicting. They also had multiple influences.

Speaking of migrations. Milutin Garasanin (btw he was E-V13 as he is of Bjelopavlic) map of LBA/EIA transition. Left arrow going down are the Brnjica group people reaching S.Albania, Korca basin. Right arrow is Mediana (and Paracin ?) people migration. You see they do arrive in the yellow Matt-painted zone from that earlier pic.
LBA-EIA-transition-Balkans.jpg

Cremation on a pyre was a thing for that zone of Albania, among the Enchelei, among Epirotans, Ancient Macedonians. All in all there is no other way to explain this. There is not much of space.
 
Since i would most strongly associate the spread of E-V13 with Iron technology, do you have good sources and information on the introduction of Iron technology in Albania and surrounds? Does that fit with the split of the different subclades, between those of Balkan, Albania in particular, and the CE ones.
 
Since i would most strongly associate the spread of E-V13 with Iron technology, do you have good sources and information on the introduction of Iron technology in Albania and surrounds? Does that fit with the split of the different subclades, between those of Balkan, Albania in particular, and the CE ones.

Aleksandar Stipcevic, a Croatian archeologist with Arbanasi ancestry critcized the so called authoctonist archeologists like some Yugoslav and Communist Albanian ones who refused any kind of Late Bronze Age influence in Albania which i really doubt it, considering Greece was flooded and the most likely proxy point was Albania itself where we see the practice of cremation on tumuli or pyres.

Stipcevic was of the opinion that the picture was more complex and there is clear Danubian Urnfield influence. The Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thinks the Urnfield influence in South Albania came via Adriatic with ships, one group stopping in South Albania and the other group going further south in Greece. I am not sure how much credibility his theory has.

I already linked a source where previously it was thought Liburnians practice was pure Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age continuum but then suddenly recently after good excavations cremations came into the scene which hints they were more mixed than previously thought.

As for the materials, i don't have it, but i can take a look and come back to you.
 
As for the materials, i don't have it, but i can take a look and come back to you.

Thank you. As you know, there are country specific works in the local language or regional experts which are largely unknown to outsiders. So its always great if someone who is an "insider" can take a look beyond the language barrier. I'm particularly interested in the introduction of iron technology, especially iron weapons and the associated chronology and cultures for every region.
 
Ok, Aspurg was right, even Frano Prendi the Albanian Archeologist thinks Matt-Pottery Culture is related to the Central Balkans cultures like Belotic Bela Crkva, is this a similar culture to Dubovac-Zuto Brda?

I think he says there is Early Bronze Age connection, but maybe he is wrong on the timeline.
 
My personal opinion so far, is that the Proto-Illyrians were a mixture of Tumulus Grave Culture known in German as Hügelgräberkultur from around the Alps and Incrusted Ware Culture from Transdanubia, the group that were pushed by Tumulus Culture went further east eventually forming Proto-Thracians by mixing with Gava people while the group that stayed forming the Proto-Illyrians and eventually pushing south.

So, this is what Marija Gimbutas meant when she said Illyrians were formed by symbiosis of people from Koszider horizont and the earlier groups that were in Western/Central Balkans.

We have even less information about the Middle Bronze Age population of the more southerly areasof western Transdanubia, the modern Zala County. West of the Kis-Balaton, the Period following theSomogyvár-Vinkovci culture seemed to be a ‘Dark Age’ lasting until the earliest phase of the TumulusGrave culture (Kovács 1984, 383; 1994a, 119; see also Horváth 1994, 219, Szõke 1995, 23; Šavel 1996,20; Bondár 1998, 21–23; Horváth 2000, 13). This hiatus in the cultural sequence was ‘filled’ by a fewresearchers by dating the earliest Tumulus Grave assemblages of the county – and a few similar findsfrom Vas, Gyõr-Moson-Sopron and Veszprém Counties – to the last phase of the Middle Bronze Age, theKoszider Period (Bóna 1992a, 40; Horváth 1994, 219; Honti 1994a, 11; Kiss 1997, 47; Ilon 1998–99,258; H. Simon–Horváth 1998–99, 202; Kiss 2000, 27; 2002, 491–492). Thus it seemed an acceptabletheory that in the Koszider Period, a new Tumulus Grave population infiltrated the westernmost areas ofTransdanubia from the west-northwest, from Lower Austria. This early Tumulus Grave populationtriggered the migration of the culture of Incrusted Ware (demonstrated by the burial of the Tolnanémeditype hoards); the remaining late Incrusted Ware groups, however, that stayed in place, became theneighbours of the new population – thus their distribution areas complement each other.When defining the material of the earliest Tumulus Grave groups in Trasdanubia, both T. Kovács andG. Vékony assigned great importance to the above-mentioned Litzenkeramik assemblages. According toKovács, the population using Litzenkeramik can be located in two closed distribution blocks (comp.Benkovsky-Pivovarová 1981a, Taf. 1): in the northwestern (in Burgenland and around Neusiedler See/LakeFertõ) and southern (in the Voivodina: Belegiš culture) part of the Carpathian Basin. Sporadically this typeof decoration may be found in other areas of Hungary as well, in the earliest assemblages of the TumulusGrave culture: at Székesfehérvár–Nyúldomb, Siklós–Téglagyár, Bag, Tiszafüred–Majoroshalom (Kovács1975a, 312–314; 1984, 383). In 1994, T. Kovács mentioned 35 sites with Litzenkeramik around NeusiedlerSee, along the river Leitha (Lajta) and scattered in the western half of the Carpathian Basin. Some of thesecome from closed assemblages, most of them are, however, stray finds and cannot be assigned to anyautonomous cultures (Kovács 1994b, 161–162; 1997, 299–300). After reviewing the sites in KomáromCounty, G. Vékony listed 57 sites belonging to the ‘Litzenkeramik, inseparable from the early TumulusGrave culture’ in the wider region of the Carpathian Basin (from Austria, eastern and western Hungary,Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) (Vékony 2000b, 177).

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18544789.pdf

Around the time of the Thera eruption important transformations occurred in the Carpathian Basin, today coveringHungary and parts of Austria, Slovakia, the Ukraine, Romania, Serbia and Croatia (Fig. 1). This is the so-called KosziderPeriod, which corresponds to the last phase of the MiddleBronze Age (MBA) according to the Hungarian terminology,and represents a transition to the Late Bronze Age (LBA).The assessment of the period has been controversial amongboth Hungarian and central European scholars.The eponymous bronze hoards that had been found inthe uppermost layers of the tell settlement of DunaújvárosKosziderpadlás were published by A. Mozsolics and I. Bónain the 195os together with other hoards of similar composition. The burial of the hoards – based on the traditional concept of culture and then dated to 135o B.C. – was connectedto the attack of the mobile pastoralist warriors of the»Tumulus Culture« from southern Germany, whose appearance brought an end to the flourishing »Tell Cultures« of theDanube and Tisza regions1. Accordingly, the KosziderPeriod was considered a short, war-ridden and turbulentphase.In the past few years this period has been interpreted notas a short »horizon« connected to a specific historical event,but as a longer period that represented the heyday of theMBA in the Carpathian Basin, which ended with significanttransformations (Bóna 1992; Bóna 1992a). The main elements of this transformation, however, are still unclear. Ouraim below is to investigate this transformation through thecomparison of several aspects of three subsequent phases– the classic phase of the MBA (Reinecke Bronzezeit [hereafter: RB] A2b–c; ca. 18oo–16oo B.C.), its final phase, theKoszider Period (RB B; ca. 16oo–15oo/145o B.C.) and thebeginning of the LBA, the classic Tumulus Grave Period(RB C1–C2; ca. 15oo/145o–13oo B.C.) – and to amend thepreviously offered interpretations of the changes with a fewnew considerations.


During the Early and Middle Bronze Age among communities using the same ceramic styles, burial rites do seem to bemore or less uniform: cremation is characteristically associated with the distribution areas of the Vatya, Hatvan andTransdanubian Encrusted Ware styles, while inhumation isdominant in the areas associated with Füzesabony (Otomani II) and Maros styles.

In the Tumulus Grave Period a new element, the burialmound appears. Its occurrence in the Carpathian Basin wasconnected to the immigration of the »Tumulus Grave people«from southern Germany (Mozsolics 1957; Bóna 1958). However, based on the most recent data on the earliest appearance of mounds (e. g. at Borotice, Franzhausen and Jelšovce)it seems that this burial rite – together with the use of a specific ceramic style – spread from the area of modern-day western Slovakia, Austria, and Moravia to the east (Svätý Peter/Dolný Peter/Alsószentpéter) and west21.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/18406091.pdf


And in turn what made the classical Illyrians is this Proto-Illyrian group and the earlier IE/non-IE population in Western/Central Balkans.
 
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Ok, Aspurg was right, even Frano Prendi the Albanian Archeologist thinks Matt-Pottery Culture is related to the Central Balkans cultures like Belotic Bela Crkva, is this a similar culture to Dubovac-Zuto Brda?

I think he says there is Early Bronze Age connection, but maybe he is wrong on the timeline.

So, late bronze age influence doesn't hold ground at all. Matt-Pottery Culture is usually associated with Minyan Ware, Middle to Late Helladic.

Making conclusions solely on images which point arrows toward that region is immature in my opinion.

What i found out is that Encrusted Pottery Culture is descended from Nagyrev Culture, and in turn Nagyrev is a culture which ultimately stemms from Croatian Cardial Neolithic incomers, so this is potentially the connecting dots of E-L618 and E-V13. But i am still not somehow convinced. the E-V13 in Spain totally bugs me off. Then the yet further unprofiled E-M78 from France/Switzerland border, hence Michlesberger Culture.

This is the Late Neolithic Bulgarian leaks, all Y-DNA were G2a. With the newly incoming R1b-Z2103 Yamnaya males during Chalcolithic. This makes sense, Bulgaria/Romania are too east, and they were highway of new migrants, you will get crushed eventually with the exception if you were a highly military civilization something which Early Neolithic people from Anatolia were not.

ZREWKTh.png
 
...if you were a highly military civilization something which Early Neolithic people from Anatolia were not.

They were, especially GAC surely was, TCC wasn't defenseless either. Even LBK people built settlements in a specific pattern, sometimes quite clearly approaching a military bridgehead into HG territory. They truly colonised a continent, with or without friendly relations with the HGs, as far as they could. Both GAC and TCC crushed many opponents, destroyed other people and looted their homes. Actually, they even taught the steppe people some lessons. But at some point, similar to the Germanics and Slavs in Late Antiquity, something went wrong and the steppe people combined their advantages with that of their neighbours to the West, which made them superiour in the coming turmoil.

Something similar happened, once more, in the LBA-EIA transition, which led to the Bronze Age collapse and the spread of many Northern groups, marching to the South. In one of these course of events E-V13 managed to rise to a higher level and replace other groups, same for I1 further North.

In the case of TCC, they were worn down by constant attacks and after losing their allies, probably also caused by internal disruptions as well as the spread of Eastern steppe groups which caused Western ones to be no longer controllable by their alliance system.

Concerning Romania, this country needs to be looked more closely and its basically two or three parts: West of the Carpathians, the Carpathian region in the narrower sense and East of the Carpathians. The region East of the Carpathians was the most vulnerable to steppe attacks, that's why it always needed a higher level organisation and culture to keep up with the competitors to the East. TCC was able to do so as long as they could keep their higher level organisation plus a system of alliances and trade with friendly steppe groups to the East, which formed a buffer. Similar to what Maykop did, in the East, with the steppe Maykop groups, which they even might have called in from Central Asia to a form a buffer to Para-Indo-European neighbours North of them.

Looking for E-V13, we need to follow the Gava-South Eastern Urnfield movement, the introduction of Iron and looking for a more protected geographical region, while already moving away from those zones which being already tested and showed no sign of it. My personal opinion is still, that no matter were we start, we need to find a link to Belegi? II?Gava. Either directly from G?va-Holigrady, or among the earlier Belegi? layers with which the newly incoming Northerners fused in the LBA-EIA transition.
 
We all agree your theory is elegant. I admit, i never thought about some details before which now i find them quite intriguing.

What you all say, academics lump into Koszider hoards and Koszider phase/horizont.

As for Neolithic, it would be cool if E-V13 was actually a Vinca Culture carrier. So far, it didn't show. It's like we used cremation for sure from times immemorial. That's quite a contrast with the belief of their pre-historic brother lineage Ancient Egyptian E-V22 where preserving the body was essential on their culture. :LOL:
 
I really think the Koszider hoard is the main event of spreading E-V13, the western branch forming/influencing Illyrians and the eastern branch forming/influencing Thracians. There should be an earlier wave which i think it might be related to Dardanian and related mercenaries among Hittites/Myceneans.

And the last wave should be the Iron Age wave of E-V13 Z5017 subclades.

In the end, people can eat shit as much as they can but E-M35 lineages were the ones who made the biggest human revolution, hence agricultural revolution. That was the first step of setting ground for civilization.
 
This article written by Draga Garasanin is a very good read.

https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dgarasanin-the_bronze.htm


We have genetic and archeological evidence of E-V13 introduction in Greece, Bulgaria so far. And it's late Bronze Age, these probably further coalitioned with other people to pillage other Mediterranean countries.
 

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