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Thread: E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

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    E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

    It's becoming quite clear to me that due to the age, spread, diversity of Z5018 and archaeological evidence Vatin culture very likely has a connection to Z5018. Of course that almost certainly applies to some other related (E/NE) cultures as well.
    Vatin culture is very convenient because other than this being a proto-(Daco) Moesian culture, the Western variant of Vatin culture is considered to have taken part in formation of Illyrians (though originally it was very distinct from some other proto-Illyrian elements such as the likely J-L283 dominated Dinara culture)..

    So Western variety of Z5018 is very convenient for some more Western Balkan clades of Z5018 that do not have Central/Eastern Balkan connection (like so many do) such as E-Y145455 in W/N Kosovo Albanians, and E-Y145455>BY6375 found in Southern Albanians who share BY6375 with Swedish YF05464. Western Balkans has high diversity of E-Y145455. There are also some very good other indications for this connection but I won't elaborate on that much right now. E-L241 might have a connection here but it is alot more complicated as is talking about some other clades.

    The TMRCA of Z5018 is 3600 ybp and this TMRCA also generally fits very well with Vatin and some other related cultures.

    Vatin is very convenient also insofar as the origin of CTS1273 is concerned. Regardless from where the E-CTS1273 may come from, for Z5018 in all viable scenarios it does not impede a Vatin connection.

    As far as Ancient DNA is concerned that will be difficult, because cremation dominated in Vatin culture. A good fit might be the Western variant of Vatin where inhumation was far more common (as it was usually for Illyrian groups), in their older burials cremation too was bit more widespread.

    In any case I don't think anyone ever made this sort of prediction/connection but I do it now.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 01-05-19 at 14:21.

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    It seems to me that the theories of Gimbutas are once again valid and, all the descendants of V13, who probably had a homeland on the middle Danube, dispersed with the Indo-European invasions / migrations

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    Eliov13, do you know your terminal subclade?

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    yes,y16729

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    Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

    Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

    The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

    Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

    Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

    The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

    Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).
    Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

    Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.
    I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?
    Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
    https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
    https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.



    Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
    https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
    https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR
    Ah right, didn't know about that study. Thanks for the papers, I will make sure to learn more about vatin.

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    cool topic and forum

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    I am E-Y145455, anything new on this topic ?

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    While it is true that Gava, Vatin and related cultures might have had E-V13 in large numbers starting from Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze it's also true they were intruders in those groups and were not initial creators of those cultures. They just imposed there.

    There is a stronger contender for E-V13 packed culture during late EBA, and it will be revealed somewhere by the end of this year.

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    might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
    LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

    from another dna thread:
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
    Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
    Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
    Center Name: University of Fribourg
    Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
    Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
    LIB11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
    LIB3 NA
    POH11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
    POH13 NA
    POH27
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
    POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
    POH3 NA
    POH36
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
    POH40 NA
    POH41
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
    POH44 in progress


    p.s
    someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/
    Sefhardi, aschenazi, bulgarian
    die Überlebenden
    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y62418/
    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/
    k12b ancient
    Closest:
    3.30708331
    R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietrophenotype: east med with pontic vibe

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
    LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

    from another dna thread:
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
    Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
    Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
    Center Name: University of Fribourg
    Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
    Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
    LIB11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
    LIB3 NA
    POH11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
    POH13 NA
    POH27
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
    POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
    POH3 NA
    POH36
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
    POH40 NA
    POH41
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
    POH44 in progress


    p.s
    someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/

    I don't think he will be in any known subclade, looks negative for all knowns. So far all results go in the direction of Channeled Ware, primarily Gva-Holigrady and Belegi II-Gava being the main spreaders of most E-V13 clades, including E-Z5018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I don't think he will be in any known subclade, looks negative for all knowns. So far all results go in the direction of Channeled Ware, primarily G�va-Holigrady and Belegi� II-Gava being the main spreaders of most E-V13 clades, including E-Z5018.
    This is exactly what we are looking for .

    This forms a very sketch of the picture of the Middle and early Late Bronze Age in Transylvania, which seems to have been formed of small-scale, mostly low-hierarchi-cal groups within well-delimited areas who created and used different pottery styles. In many cases, those groups seem to have put a lot of effort into the decoration of their fineware, depicting and expressing certain aspects of their worldview. When viewed in that sense, the appearance of channelled ware means a radical re-structuring of the Bronze Age world and a washing away of parts of ear-lier belief systems. The question how this process began should be addressed in detail.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Transylvania
    A previously unknown and small unimportant group who grew up to power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    This is exactly what we are looking for .



    A previously unknown and small unimportant group who grew up to power.
    I knew that article and the distribution map shows very clearly the former core zone of E-V13 spread:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_333264464

    With splinters of Channeled Ware/Gava deep into Central-Eastern Germany and a contact zone in Poland with Lusatians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I knew that article and the distribution map shows very clearly the former core zone of E-V13 spread:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_333264464

    With splinters of Channeled Ware/Gava deep into Central-Eastern Germany and a contact zone in Poland with Lusatians.
    According to some archeologists the pre V century B.C Ancient Macedonians were strongly Lusatian influenced, right after V B.C they start to show strongly Hellenic tendencies.

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    Interesting read.

    The series is based on a new series of conferences that will take place every 2-3 years in the Balkans and the first publication of which was published in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] vol. These proceedings of the second conference in Belgrade in 2017 contain a foreword, prologue, introduction and 14 essays. These deal with the interaction in the M-SBZ of the SW Balkans, similarities and differences in the material culture of thebeliš II-Gava group in southern Pannonia and the March basin, body burials versus cremations in the SBZ between the S-Carpathian Basin and the W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the SBZ-EPZ, protective weapons of the SBZ, the settlement of Čepintsi in the SBZ context, settlements and burial grounds of the EPZ in Macedonia, the sea peoples and “Balkanism” in the SBZ archeology, cultural continuity during the SBZ-EPZ in the western March basin , Späthallstatt contacts between the SO Carpathian Basin and the W Balkans, belt jewelry for women of the 7th / 6th centuries Century in N-Albania, grave customs of EZ in N-Greece, “Monochrome goods” in N-Greece from the late Geometry to the Archaic as well as object biographies of two metal vessels from a grave in Vergina / Aigai.
    https://www.vml.de/d/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-86757-110-4

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    Cremation on a pyre was an Ancient Macedonian and Encheleian thing it looks.

    On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”
    https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-...edonian-elite/
    Last edited by Hawk; 28-04-21 at 09:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    There is a stronger contender for E-V13 packed culture during late EBA, and it will be revealed somewhere by the end of this year.
    What do you mean by this? An upcoming paper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What do you mean by this? An upcoming paper?
    That would be nice to know, indeed.

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