E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

[Aspurg]

It's becoming quite clear to me that due to the age, spread, diversity of Z5018 and archaeological evidence Vatin culture very likely has a connection to Z5018. Of course that almost certainly applies to some other related (E/NE) cultures as well.
Vatin culture is very convenient because other than this being a proto-(Daco) Moesian culture, the Western variant of Vatin culture is considered to have taken part in formation of Illyrians (though originally it was very distinct from some other proto-Illyrian elements such as the likely J-L283 dominated Dinara culture)..

So Western variety of Z5018 is very convenient for some more Western Balkan clades of Z5018 that do not have Central/Eastern Balkan connection (like so many do) such as E-Y145455 in W/N Kosovo Albanians, and E-Y145455>BY6375 found in Southern Albanians who share BY6375 with Swedish YF05464. Western Balkans has high diversity of E-Y145455. There are also some very good other indications for this connection but I won't elaborate on that much right now. E-L241 might have a connection here but it is alot more complicated as is talking about some other clades.

The TMRCA of Z5018 is 3600 ybp and this TMRCA also generally fits very well with Vatin and some other related cultures.

Vatin is very convenient also insofar as the origin of CTS1273 is concerned. Regardless from where the E-CTS1273 may come from, for Z5018 in all viable scenarios it does not impede a Vatin connection.

As far as Ancient DNA is concerned that will be difficult, because cremation dominated in Vatin culture. A good fit might be the Western variant of Vatin where inhumation was far more common (as it was usually for Illyrian groups), in their older burials cremation too was bit more widespread.

In any case I don't think anyone ever made this sort of prediction/connection but I do it now.

[ELIOV13]

It seems to me that the theories of Gimbutas are once again valid and, all the descendants of V13, who probably had a homeland on the middle Danube, dispersed with the Indo-European invasions / migrations

[digital_noise]

Eliov13, do you know your terminal subclade?

[ELIOV13]

yes,y16729

[Aspurg]

Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

[Johane Derite]

Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?

[Aspurg]

Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.

Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?

Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

[Johane Derite]

I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.



Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

Ah right, didn't know about that study. Thanks for the papers, I will make sure to learn more about vatin.

[HarryRussell]

cool topic and forum

[Stratioti]

I am E-Y145455, anything new on this topic ?

[Progon]

While it is true that Gava, Vatin and related cultures might have had E-V13 in large numbers starting from Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze it's also true they were intruders in those groups and were not initial creators of those cultures. They just imposed there.

There is a stronger contender for E-V13 packed culture during late EBA, and it will be revealed somewhere by the end of this year.

[kingjohn]

might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

from another dna thread:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
Center Name: University of Fribourg
Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
LIB11 https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
LIB3 NA
POH11 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
POH13 NA
POH27 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
POH3 NA
POH36 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
POH40 NA
POH41 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
POH44 in progress


p.s
someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/

[Riverman]

might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

from another dna thread:
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
Center Name: University of Fribourg
Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
LIB11 https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
LIB3 NA
POH11 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
POH13 NA
POH27 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
POH3 NA
POH36 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
POH40 NA
POH41 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
POH44 in progress


p.s
someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/

I don't think he will be in any known subclade, looks negative for all knowns. So far all results go in the direction of Channeled Ware, primarily Gáva-Holigrady and Belegiš II-Gava being the main spreaders of most E-V13 clades, including E-Z5018.