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Thread: E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

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    E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

    It's becoming quite clear to me that due to the age, spread, diversity of Z5018 and archaeological evidence Vatin culture very likely has a connection to Z5018. Of course that almost certainly applies to some other related (E/NE) cultures as well.
    Vatin culture is very convenient because other than this being a proto-(Daco) Moesian culture, the Western variant of Vatin culture is considered to have taken part in formation of Illyrians (though originally it was very distinct from some other proto-Illyrian elements such as the likely J-L283 dominated Dinara culture)..

    So Western variety of Z5018 is very convenient for some more Western Balkan clades of Z5018 that do not have Central/Eastern Balkan connection (like so many do) such as E-Y145455 in W/N Kosovo Albanians, and E-Y145455>BY6375 found in Southern Albanians who share BY6375 with Swedish YF05464. Western Balkans has high diversity of E-Y145455. There are also some very good other indications for this connection but I won't elaborate on that much right now. E-L241 might have a connection here but it is alot more complicated as is talking about some other clades.

    The TMRCA of Z5018 is 3600 ybp and this TMRCA also generally fits very well with Vatin and some other related cultures.

    Vatin is very convenient also insofar as the origin of CTS1273 is concerned. Regardless from where the E-CTS1273 may come from, for Z5018 in all viable scenarios it does not impede a Vatin connection.

    As far as Ancient DNA is concerned that will be difficult, because cremation dominated in Vatin culture. A good fit might be the Western variant of Vatin where inhumation was far more common (as it was usually for Illyrian groups), in their older burials cremation too was bit more widespread.

    In any case I don't think anyone ever made this sort of prediction/connection but I do it now.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 01-05-19 at 14:21.

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    It seems to me that the theories of Gimbutas are once again valid and, all the descendants of V13, who probably had a homeland on the middle Danube, dispersed with the Indo-European invasions / migrations

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    Eliov13, do you know your terminal subclade?

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    yes,y16729

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    Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

    Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

    The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

    Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Albanians now have a 3rd cluster of E-Y145455, also from Southern Albania, that fits into Western Vatin remnants being pushed way to the South at the time of Bronze Age collapse as stated by some archaeologists. But also at FTDNA under Y145455 now we see a significant diversity under Y145455>Z17293:
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY183689 Irish, Central Bulgaria
    E-Y145455>Z17293>BY6238 Ukrainian from Carpathians, NE Romanian

    Additionally there is another NW Bulgarian Z17293+ with only 12 STR's but he is 4/12 to both clades so not close to either further indicating ​Z17293's more Eastern affiliation.

    The TMRCA of the two clades is still around 3700 ybp, so generally Y145455 remains as one of older Z5018 clades with significant dispersion in MBA. While Western clades might fit into Western Vatin, these Easterners would fit into some Eastern relatives of Vatin culture as they are still 3700 ybp apart despite both being Y145455+. So these news finds do seem to support my thesis here. And logically already Z5018 is very dispersive in MBA/LBA and has to be involved with major Balkan cultures. Interestingly one of these Vatin cousins where I suspect some Z5018 involvement is considered by some to be proto-Dorian.. And there might exist interesting genetic facts to back that up.

    Albanian E-Y6375 is predicted I see based on a very close match with one Greek BY6375+ from Santorini, usually such close matches with Albanians/Vlachs end up being Arvanite/Vlach though Santorini is a bit exotic for those (as is Smyrna though).
    Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.

    Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Smyrna has a quite large Albanian population that are mostly assimilated today as turks. A big chunk of them are refugees from the Nish sanxhak from 1877-1878.
    I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Can you recommend me some good works on the Vatin culture?
    Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
    https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
    https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I was referring to the study of Smyrna Greeks where various typical Albanian clades were found: R-Z2705, E-Y92017, E-Y173822.



    Well much of it is in Serbian because usually archaeologists deal with cultures from their countries. But some papers in English:
    https://www.academia.edu/2250330/WEL..._CENTURY_AFTER
    http://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x002debf3.pdf (some successors)
    https://www.academia.edu/8203728/THE...F_%C5%BDIDOVAR
    Ah right, didn't know about that study. Thanks for the papers, I will make sure to learn more about vatin.

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    cool topic and forum

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    I am E-Y145455, anything new on this topic ?

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    While it is true that Gava, Vatin and related cultures might have had E-V13 in large numbers starting from Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze it's also true they were intruders in those groups and were not initial creators of those cultures. They just imposed there.

    There is a stronger contender for E-V13 packed culture during late EBA, and it will be revealed somewhere by the end of this year.

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    might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
    LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

    from another dna thread:
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
    Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
    Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
    Center Name: University of Fribourg
    Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
    Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
    LIB11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
    LIB3 NA
    POH11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
    POH13 NA
    POH27
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
    POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
    POH3 NA
    POH36
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
    POH40 NA
    POH41
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
    POH44 in progress


    p.s
    someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    might be of interest to e-L241 people ( which i see now in yfull is a downstream of e-z5018)
    LIB11 individual is a 5th centery pre-slavic individual from this place south moravia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

    from another dna thread:
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB39997
    Ancient DNA from pre-Slavic and Slavic individuals was extracted to compare human genetic diversity before and after a possible demographic event traditionally associated with Slavic ethnogenesis.
    Study Title: Genetic Diversity in Migration Period and Early Middle Ages
    Center Name: University of Fribourg
    Study Name: Pre-Slavic and Slavic Ancient DNA
    Each sample consists of 10 or 12 paired reads (20 or 24 fastq files), but I've used only one file per sample because all of them combined weight more than a half terabyte. Outcome is quite noisy as the reads weren't processed in any way besides mapping and genotyping. Treat everything here as preliminary.LIB is Breclav-Libiva (5th century), POH is Pohansko (early Middle Ages)
    LIB11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241/
    LIB2 https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z180/
    LIB3 NA
    POH11
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z283/
    POH13 NA
    POH27
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-P312/
    eventually https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3267/
    POH28 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z92/
    POH3 NA
    POH36
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
    POH40 NA
    POH41
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z16971/
    POH44 in progress


    p.s
    someone even uploaded him yesterday to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L241*/

    I don't think he will be in any known subclade, looks negative for all knowns. So far all results go in the direction of Channeled Ware, primarily Gva-Holigrady and Belegi II-Gava being the main spreaders of most E-V13 clades, including E-Z5018.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I don't think he will be in any known subclade, looks negative for all knowns. So far all results go in the direction of Channeled Ware, primarily G�va-Holigrady and Belegi� II-Gava being the main spreaders of most E-V13 clades, including E-Z5018.
    This is exactly what we are looking for .

    This forms a very sketch of the picture of the Middle and early Late Bronze Age in Transylvania, which seems to have been formed of small-scale, mostly low-hierarchi-cal groups within well-delimited areas who created and used different pottery styles. In many cases, those groups seem to have put a lot of effort into the decoration of their fineware, depicting and expressing certain aspects of their worldview. When viewed in that sense, the appearance of channelled ware means a radical re-structuring of the Bronze Age world and a washing away of parts of ear-lier belief systems. The question how this process began should be addressed in detail.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Transylvania
    A previously unknown and small unimportant group who grew up to power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    This is exactly what we are looking for .



    A previously unknown and small unimportant group who grew up to power.
    I knew that article and the distribution map shows very clearly the former core zone of E-V13 spread:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_333264464

    With splinters of Channeled Ware/Gava deep into Central-Eastern Germany and a contact zone in Poland with Lusatians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I knew that article and the distribution map shows very clearly the former core zone of E-V13 spread:
    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_333264464

    With splinters of Channeled Ware/Gava deep into Central-Eastern Germany and a contact zone in Poland with Lusatians.
    According to some archeologists the pre V century B.C Ancient Macedonians were strongly Lusatian influenced, right after V B.C they start to show strongly Hellenic tendencies.

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    Interesting read.

    The series is based on a new series of conferences that will take place every 2-3 years in the Balkans and the first publication of which was published in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] vol. These proceedings of the second conference in Belgrade in 2017 contain a foreword, prologue, introduction and 14 essays. These deal with the interaction in the M-SBZ of the SW Balkans, similarities and differences in the material culture of thebeliš II-Gava group in southern Pannonia and the March basin, body burials versus cremations in the SBZ between the S-Carpathian Basin and the W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the SBZ-EPZ, protective weapons of the SBZ, the settlement of Čepintsi in the SBZ context, settlements and burial grounds of the EPZ in Macedonia, the sea peoples and “Balkanism” in the SBZ archeology, cultural continuity during the SBZ-EPZ in the western March basin , Späthallstatt contacts between the SO Carpathian Basin and the W Balkans, belt jewelry for women of the 7th / 6th centuries Century in N-Albania, grave customs of EZ in N-Greece, “Monochrome goods” in N-Greece from the late Geometry to the Archaic as well as object biographies of two metal vessels from a grave in Vergina / Aigai.
    https://www.vml.de/d/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-86757-110-4

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    Cremation on a pyre was an Ancient Macedonian and Encheleian thing it looks.

    On this occasion, special attention is given to the Tomb of the Warriors (Tomb 1) in which 6 warriors were buried together with their complete military armor. The tomb (dimensions: 5.50 x 4.50 m) was built with a row of larger limestone blocks, and after the cremation burial it was filled with amorphous stones and earth, shaping a low mound-like structure. The pyre was set in the central part of the tomb, and around it, embedded and arranged in a specially brought lake sand, were the military attributes: 6 bronze helmets, 11 greaves, and 15 iron spears, with features suggesting some military subordination or simply warriors who have died in a battle being “the Leader and his comrades.”
    https://pebasite.wordpress.com/peba-...edonian-elite/
    Last edited by Hawk; 28-04-21 at 09:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    There is a stronger contender for E-V13 packed culture during late EBA, and it will be revealed somewhere by the end of this year.
    What do you mean by this? An upcoming paper?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    What do you mean by this? An upcoming paper?
    That would be nice to know, indeed.

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    I have prevailed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Belegiš II might be the key but for completely different reasons.


    It seems we already have Gáva-Holigrady aDNA finds, in Y-DNA and autosomally. These finds demonstratively disqualify vast majority of E-V13 clades from having spread with the Gáva-Holigrady. And that, bar these younger expansive groups, E-V13 has nothing to do whatsoever with any sort of Urnfield culture. It seems E-CTS9320 and E-FCG11451 were involved with Gava in a secondary role, and it seems indeed Belegiš II is one of the keys. This is where genetically extremely Northern Gava presumably made contact with some Geto-Thracian like Southerners who then proceeded to spread some Gava ways (including the Thracian language quite possibly) and that includes the culture where we have already three E-V13 finds.


    Due to this I believe we can now put the sign of equality between the Vatina, Verbicioara, Paraćin, Tei, Monteoru, Zimnicea-Plovdiv, Mediana, Brnjica, secondarily Girla Mare-Dubovac cultures and the SNP E-BY3880.


    Original home is Adriatic Neolithic element and subsequently proto-Cetina culture (whose remnants are E-Y37092).
    Quote Originally Posted by Huban View Post
    Those Hungarian Scythians, they all descend of Gava culture! Even though they were politically Scythian great many of them were still cremated simultaneously. Gava urns were found at both archeological sites of those Hungarian Scythians and Gava urns were not all that common at that time in the region! I had to dig deep for this information but these people are some locals who surely are genetic and cultural descendants of Gava people, and presence of so many cremations there has also been explained by the authors as the indigenous Urnfield element rather than real Scythians.




    One of these, DA197, is R1a-Z280>YP340 (xYP371,P278.2)
    Most are very Northern, and we can see they carry R-YP340 which might be the explanation for the Baltic links of the Thracian. From some details I know it almost appears as if Thracian is an old dialect of Baltic.
    Modern YP340 seem to have spread with the Slavs though. This is some extinct linage it seems.
    DA198 is G-PF3378. He is the one who is South-eastern autosomally, similar to Thraco-Cimmerian find, Getae.


    I suspect DA198 represents some (pre-Gava) Belegiš-like people, there at Belegiš II mingling occurred and even farther at Gornea-Kalakača which has links to Insula Banului which is where Pšeničevo culture (with 3 E-V13 finds) comes from.


    It doesn't look this Northern Urnfield autosomal profile left some significant genetic imprint on the Balkans, otherwise Geto-Thracians would have looked totally differently. But it seems this is where some E-V13 just took over their traditions and I strongly suspect the language.

    In addition to I20772 there is also I20771 labelled as Gava. And here in G25 among its closest autosomal matches are Hungarian "Scythians", i.e. Gava culture descendants along with Czech Hallstat and Kyjatice Urnfielders.. And no E-V13 there...


    Distance to: HUN_Gava_BA:I20771
    0.03157287 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20743
    0.03531882 Scythian_HUN: DA194 (Gava urns)
    0.03760216 SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK19A
    0.04119769 SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK30
    0.04247336 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK313
    0.04416746 Scythian_HUN: DA197 (R-YP340*, Gava urns)
    0.04427605 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5525
    0.04471150 SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK28A
    0.04490650 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany: DA112 (R1b)
    0.04524963 DEU_Tollense_BA:WEZ15
    0.04627580 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20746
    0.04675110 HUN_LBA:I1504 (BR2 , Kyjatice culture, Urnfield, J2a)
    0.04690319 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7214
    0.04791698 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7211
    0.04856142 Scythian_UKR:scy009
    0.04883339 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7213
    0.04925464 HUN_Vekerzug_IA:I20745
    0.04996774 DEU_Singen_EBA:MX288
    0.05017892 VK2020_EST_Saaremaa_EVA:VK509
    0.05024223 HUN_Mako_EBA:I1502
    0.05068164 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7286
    0.05084276 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale:I0111
    0.05122130 SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK22
    0.05162585 SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK21A
    0.05179586 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31


    One of whom, DA197, is also R1a-Z282, namely R-YP340*. So my call that Hungarian Scythians were direct descendants of Gava culture people based on archeological evidence was totally correct..


    Based on this we can say that most likely Gava carried no E-V13, initially. But also look at DA198 who is G-PF3378, and another one is a mix of DA198 and Northern ancestry. It seems these represent some indigenous Southern Belegiš etc element.


    We do have 3 E-V13 Pšeničevo culture finds, we do have "Thraco-Kimmerian" find which belongs to the Babadag culture, sister culture to Pšeničevo, and their ultimate root is Insula-Banului where a contact of Gava and local Incrusted culture peoples was made. Nevertheless it looks autosomally, they were mostly Southern based on Incrusted pottery descended finds, MJ12 and also those Moldovan Scythians are not far off.


    Incrusted culture people were of the Girla Mare culture, however this culture which wasn't IE speaking, was supposed to have arrived from the direction of the NW, Balaton lake, and there some of its supposed sister cultures were tested and they too looked Northern except they didn't look Steppe-like.


    As Girla-Mare were "late Boomers" strong in LBA, it could be that they assimilated some of the surrounding elements packed with E-V13. Which they did archeologically, they became closer in material culture due to cohabitation. Y-DNA wise Incrusted pottery migrants from the Balaton lake totally fit into I-Y13336 found in Pomaks, and related clades were found in Mokrin as well as in these W.Hungarian cultures.


    Here comes the question of the language. Were Gava culture people original Thracians? Who then in Belegiš-Insula Banului phase transferred the language to Danubian-Carpathian complex locals who then proceeded to spread it around with the Incrusted pottery. Because with these EIA cultures who were all related you could explain the entire Daco-Thracian EIA world. Not only Pšeničevo-Babadag, but also Basarabi and some others such as Saharna culture from Moldova which could be related to Moldovan "Scythians".


    Or maybe the Thracian group was the language of the Carpatho-Danubian complex, (Verbicioara, Paraćin, Tei, Monteoru, Zimnicea-Plovdiv, Mediana, Brnjica, Vatin should have been actually more Mokrin derived). If we go by archeological evidence, however some of these are actually those who invaded Troy. As I mentioned before, E-FGC44169, which did not diversify in LBA/EIA but earlier in its spread seems to mimic the Zimnicea-Plovdiv group and historical Phillisitines/Sea Peoples.


    Insula Banului-Pšeničevo etc. people could be explained with the likes of CTS9320 (there is even a Greek CTS9320* near Svilengrad, and even some Asia Minor clades). Interestingly these are associated with Thracians and they also spent time at Troy after the Zimnicea-Plovdiv people. And also these people hugely influenced the Mediana-Brnjica group who did also migrate to Albanian areas (especially Southern) where you find some extra diversity of these younger clades such as CTS9320 and FGC11450. But interestingly Albanian V13, despite their best level of testing in the Balkans, fail to achieve the phylogenetic structure past the Late Antiquity and they generally have Bulgarian, Carpathian, Greek EIA/LBA relatives closer to them than other Albanian V13, which does suggest a migratory event.


    Considering the links of Thracian with the Baltic these R-Z280 finds would seem to suggest Thracians were a younger group. In which case the Carpatho-Danubian complex was either some other IE of even of the Anatolian group, or non-IE. Incrusted pottery migrants from Balaton lake were possibly Etruscan. Earlier R-Z93 find from Bulgaria should not be taken seriously for proto-Thracians, they were most likely Iranic speakers, a dead-end group who migrated in MBA. Z93 SNP is firmly tied to Indo-Aryan group and Thracian doesn't fit there, except some influences here and there. There was a LBA Noua Iranic influence in the area.


    Generally you see the Northern autosomal affinity in these Urnfield groups, Czech Hallstat DA112 R1b sample is also up there as is the J2a Kyjatice Culture sample. So already we have some of these and no E-V13..


    Finally regarding the distant origins of E-V13, and my Cetina->Schneckenberg thesis, we have a recent sample from Bosnia which might indicate that there were such migrations
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC43622/


    He split the Eastern Balkan/Carpathian Y5587. Though here this SNP is Homologous at the FTDNA he has few more. So It could be that E-V13 in EBA spread with Y5587. What should be noted that these MBA Carpatho-Danubian cultures such as Tei, Monteoru, Verbicioara formed on the basis of Schneckenberg supstrate.
    However I might add that of all Carpatho-Danubian vultures Vatina was more Maros/Mokrin derived where E-V13 was not found, so I think we should focus more on Paraćin, Verbicioara and others.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    rafc wrote something in anthrogenica.

    FTDNA has added a new level beneath CTS5856, BY4877, which groups all branches except Z16663. I did a quick check and this grouping seems correct.
    With that there are no more CTS5856*, but there are two BY4877*, Italian according to FTDNA.
    Do you think they are Cetina?

    What if new basal E-V13 clades keeps popping out in and around Germany? How would you explain that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    rafc wrote something in anthrogenica.



    Do you think they are Cetina?

    What if new basal E-V13 clades keeps popping out in and around Germany? How would you explain that?
    Yes, I actually waited for these two Italian BY4877* to form their own branch, but they never did! Because I found it weird that two separate BY4877* clades would be found there. Yes I believe this totally fits into Cetina. I know one of these samples is Sicilian. The other I don't know. And obviously this could imply that Z16663 is more Cetina related though it has also some strong Carpathian diversity. Because of its presence in Pontic Greeks and Armenians I think they too are more Carpatho-Danubian LBA Collapse related hg.

    Regarding German samples, one has to be careful especially when they are around Limes Germanicus, most of them are. But Eastern German E-V13 in majority seem to have some Carpathian connections so they do not seem like Romans. Between these there is a big hole. And also even E-BY6550 clade, seems to occur in Calabria in one sample based on his STR's. Though he is distant from the others, it might imply Cetina-like connection.

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    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes, I actually waited for these two Italian BY4877* to form their own branch, but they never did! Because I found it weird that two separate BY4877* clades would be found there. Yes I believe this totally fits into Cetina. I know one of these samples is Sicilian. The other I don't know. And obviously this could imply that Z16663 is more Cetina related though it has also some strong Carpathian diversity. Because of its presence in Pontic Greeks and Armenians I think they too are more Carpatho-Danubian LBA Collapse related hg.

    Regarding German samples, one has to be careful especially when they are around Limes Germanicus, most of them are. But Eastern German E-V13 in majority seem to have some Carpathian connections so they do not seem like Romans. Between these there is a big hole. And also even E-BY6550 clade, seems to occur in Calabria in one sample based on his STR's. Though he is distant from the others, it might imply Cetina-like connection.
    Seeing the phylogenetic tree of splits i could visualize Riverman's theory to be honest. I even for a reason don't exclude Hügelgräberkultur. Some East Alpine/West Carpathian mountain dwellers learning some metal working skills.

    But then again Cetina makes sense as well.

    Or, if i am not wrong rafc proposed also Montero Culture from EBA Romania.

    All in all, it's a tricky one. I can see that Dardanians, Encheleians, Taulantii actually stem from a single tribe called Peresadyes whom Hammond believes is close to the name of Odrysian prince Berisades. According to lead Macedonian archeologist Pasko Kuzman Encheleians used cremation on a pyre. I don't have any information about Taulantii.

    Epirotans burial customs included 40-45% cremation and the rest inhumation. There was definitely something going on.

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    First time i see Dardanian helmet, it belonged to King Monunious who hailed from Peresadyes tribe, same as Bardyllis.




    Looks similar to the so called Thracian Hellenistic helmet.



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