E-Z5018 and Vatin culture

On YFULL I am E-S2979* ID: YF68335 USA and now there are 2 others temporary assigned E-S2979* one from Turkey and Another from Brazil

I am E-FT191655 is assigned by FT DNA I have 5 Big Y700 matches in there. They are not interested in YFULL

I have a small % of Magyar per FTDNA Autosomal and a Small % of Cypriot on 23&me that point to the E Haplo but otherwise I am 100% Scandinavian/Celt Autosomal. this leads me to believe my line branched North. I have shown some Illyrian and Tyrolian connections and I feel like my line may have went to Noricum and into North as I am most likely in an Anglo-Saxon movement to GB with the Family Name Goode in Southern England. I don't seem to fit any Balkan Demographics. Opinions Please

There are many open questions concerning E-V13, as you can read. The main problem with your lineage is, that its rather rare and all so far tested English people are recently related. And I mean very recently, because you people below E-BY6113 could fall well into the historical time frame of established surnames. That is a very young date, we're talking probably about the 1500-1700's timeframe.
On the one hand that's great, on the other this tells you little about where your paternal ancestors lived 1000 years earlier. I would guess that E-BY6125 lived in the North for long at first look, but new finds and samples might change that. However, it looks good for your lineage to have been North West of the Alps, to put it that way, well before the Roman provinces in Gallia came about, probably with the Iron Age transition, spreading among Celts and/or Germanics. But that's just my best guess based on what is there now, it could have been even earlier, or somewhat (not much) later. You'll probably see once more people test. Those at FTDNA which tested so far won't help a lot, because they are too close. They are nice for a surname project, but not for your ethnic lineage origin project. Because for that you need matches which are either more distant or from different countries. Like if suddenly 5 Bulgarians with a historical TMRCA for the Roman Age would pop up, this would be a game changer. But as things are by now, it doesn't look like that will happen. Earlier, probably, but Roman Age, rather not. Yet the case isn't closed yet, you have to pray and hope for luck, to get the right matches which might allow you to get more out of it.

This very useful tool gives you an impression of how things look like, roughly, with the currently available data:
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

But just keep in mind, every new ancient or modern DNA sample can make things turn around.
 
That is one of studies. There are 8 overall.
I never said they did as obviously I mentioned the Basarabi culture. But your double digit-IQ which is rampant in Albania and around the Balkans just impedes you.:LOL:
1. It's not your link. You don't understand anything it says.
2. I don't ridicule you, I pity you.
That is the number when all studies are put together.
STFU :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

I pity you for not providing a shred of proof to back up your made up nonsense and then making fun of people when youre wrong
 
Ancient DNA suggests that Thrace was populated by more Northern non-Thracian people prior to Thracian expansion so some of it may refer to that. But Iron Age Thracians were alot more Southern genetically than MBA and EIA Illyrians. Illyrians clustered with Northern Italians, not Albanians, especially once 25 % of Slavic admixture in Albanians is removed, Albanians cluster nowhere near the Illyrians.

Albanians are generally closer autosomally to MBA_Helladic Log_02 sample than Thracian_Iron_Age. Way more closer.

Also, I would be careful labeling 25% of Slavic, i think it depends, realistically it can be ~15%, I for instance have high Yamnaya, up to 38%, i thought it's because of Slavic admixture, but then again i have 0% SHG and other EHG-related components that Slavs have as an addition, and to some smaller degrees other Albanians and Balkanites.
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/


http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/ibl...aplotypes in a Romanian population sample.pdf


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1344622310000891


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16759179/


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0053731


You should already know of this, otherwise you shouldn't post about things you have no clue of.





Eye color mutations and other traits are subjected to selection process. Even Sardinians have plenty of light eyes, and by your logic they shouldnt have any.


Ancient DNA suggests that Thrace was populated by more Northern non-Thracian people prior to Thracian expansion so some of it may refer to that. But Iron Age Thracians were alot more Southern genetically than MBA and EIA Illyrians. Illyrians clustered with Northern Italians, not Albanians, especially once 25 % of Slavic admixture in Albanians is removed, Albanians cluster nowhere near the Illyrians.

It is possible more Southern Illyrians were more Southern due to V13 admixture.


Romanian R1a of that can be identified is all Slavic, few Turkic. I-M223 has nothing to with Thracians, one of its clades is Luwian/Anatolian related, its 2.47 %. Most R1b in Romanians is Western L51, much of it Roman. Very little of R-Z2103 in Romania, and most of it arrived from the South less than 1000 years ago.


Of that Romanian Peatra Niamt sample you cherry-picked where E-V13 is under 6%. It's totally our of context.
Of 56.
39.3 % is I-Y3120 , Slavic, non-Dacian
19.6 % is R1a Slavic, non-Dacian
7.1 % is R-U106 Germanic, non-Dacian
3.6 % is R-FG668, Roman cluster with Italians, non-Dacian
3.6 % is I1, Germanic, non-Dacian
1 is E-M81, non-Dacian
One is Roma H...


Overall of people who could be of Dacian origin in that sample E-V13 makes up 33 %. On that sample Slavic, Germanic ancestry is 70 %.


Original Thracian linguistic carriers seem to have been R-Z280, but their clade found in Gava culture doesn't seem to exist in the Balkans anymore.





Then why don't you stop posting nonsense?





E-V13 has nothing to do with any BA related migrations from Anatolia.


E-L618 was in Neolithic Dalmatia long before Illyrians existed let alone migrated to Balkans. In Southern Albania E-L618 line was found.


E-V13 was in the Balkans 7000 years ago, 6000 years ago, 5000 years ago, 4000 years ago, 3000 years ago...


If E-V13 is generally Illyrian then they are just Berber (or Etruscan) speaking locals who were forced to learn to speak the Illyrian language by the J-L283/R-Z2103. They are as Illyrian as most Anatolian J2a are Turkic, as most Balkan E-V13 are Slavic etc.


And no Thracians didn't lose all, Bessian language is attested as alive in 5th century AD, long after any Illyrian language is attested, part of the reason Albanian is being considered descended of Bessian by Schramm.


Vast total majority of Illyrians were romanized as attested by onomastic and archeological evidence.

I would expect that Illyrian proper to be very similar to Log02 sample.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
I would expect that Illyrian proper to be very similar to Log02 sample.
Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
What was the y dna line for that log02 sample?

Also i have no doubt that they are using south albanians exclusively for the "autosomnal" results, there is absolutely zero chance north albanians have 15% south slavic unless they are checking some exotic kosovo albanians - i imagine a few would have elevated south slavic autosomnal

I dont trust autosomnal results either way because if we look at y dna figures even south albanians have around 15% total south slavic lines but with autosomnal it uses female dna too which south slavs brought less of during the south slavic invasions into balkans/central europe. This means autosomnal south slavic should be on average around 10% even in south albanians, 5% in north
 
What was the y dna line for that log02 sample?

Also i have no doubt that they are using south albanians exclusively for the "autosomnal" results, there is absolutely zero chance north albanians have 15% south slavic unless they are checking some exotic kosovo albanians - i imagine a few would have elevated south slavic autosomnal

I dont trust autosomnal results either way because if we look at y dna figures even south albanians have around 15% total south slavic lines but with autosomnal it uses female dna too which south slavs brought less of during the south slavic invasions into balkans/central europe. This means autosomnal south slavic should be on average around 10% even in south albanians, 5% in north

Log02 has no y-dna.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
On YFull my mother's paternal line through her brother is E-BY183690. So this is my maternal grandfather's haplogroup from Edessa which is capital of region Pella. On live version we create a new subscale with a man from Bulgaria. E-FT61105, with 22 snps that defines this new subscale and it is one of the two new created subscales under E-BY183690. How close will be our last common ancestror is something that i am waiting for the new update of YFull but i would like to know an estimation if someone knows. Also there is one more sample from the same region (Pella) under renamed on live version E-Z17293 (E-Y145455a on classic version). Our last common ancestror is 3700 years ago. Is this subclade have been created in this region(E-BY183690)? And what about before. Is this mesolithic that came with indoeuropeans or have something to do with Middle East.
 
On YFull my mother's paternal line through her brother is E-BY183690. So this is my maternal grandfather's haplogroup from Edessa which is capital of region Pella. On live version we create a new subscale with a man from Bulgaria. E-FT61105, with 22 snps that defines this new subscale and it is one of the two new created subscales under E-BY183690. How close will be our last common ancestror is something that i am waiting for the new update of YFull but i would like to know an estimation if someone knows. Also there is one more sample from the same region (Pella) under renamed on live version E-Z17293 (E-Y145455a on classic version). Our last common ancestror is 3700 years ago. Is this subclade have been created in this region? And what about before. Is this mesolithic that came with indoeuropeans or have something to do with Middle East.

We have discussed before, it's the movement of Danube people within inner Balkans mostly during Late Bronze Age, this movement shaped and heavily influenced Greece as well.

What was their ethnic affiliation is that it's unknown for now. There is an article in historyfiles.co.uk which connects the movement to the newer Greek tribes overruning the Achaeans. But it's up to discussion.

So, don't consider it as canonical. It's all assumptions/hypothesis of course. We are open to various interpretations, but various different people lean on the Late Bronze Age spread from within Carpathian/Danube Valley, and the archeological records are associated with what i said above. Cremation on a pyre/tumuli, iron working, Naue II swords, round shields, solar symbols along with the water bird symbol was spread in Balkans during this time.
 
I will read all the past discussions for better understanding. Thanks for the response.
 
I will read all the past discussions for better understanding. Thanks for the response.

What about your maternal side, is their recorded ancestry Greek?
 
What was the y dna line for that log02 sample?

Also i have no doubt that they are using south albanians exclusively for the "autosomnal" results, there is absolutely zero chance north albanians have 15% south slavic unless they are checking some exotic kosovo albanians - i imagine a few would have elevated south slavic autosomnal

I dont trust autosomnal results either way because if we look at y dna figures even south albanians have around 15% total south slavic lines but with autosomnal it uses female dna too which south slavs brought less of during the south slavic invasions into balkans/central europe. This means autosomnal south slavic should be on average around 10% even in south albanians, 5% in north


Log02 is in thessally Greece ...............there is no "llyrian" with this marker

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706
 
You're tripping Torzio.

Log2 is as big of on outlier as you get. Within the study and compared to previous "Greek" samples.
Definitively showed affinity with further north populations iirc.

Who are you to say "there is no "llyrian" with this marker".
Guess since he was found in Thessaly, he had a Greek Passport from the 20th century. :rolleyes:
 
If Riverman is right on his assumption, and he links the E-V13 with the blacksmiths and metal-workers of Carpathian Mountains then it's really hard to pinpoint to which ancient population it originated from.

I made a quick read on a paper that reads this profession was high on demand during that time, they could have been invited everywhere by local elites to work for them. But if Daco-Thracians were primary carriers then so be it. I would have bet my money that R1a was the main Y-DNA among Daco-Thracians based on their clothes similarity with Scythians and other Iranic people especially the trademark Phrygian cap, description on their appearance and customs. But aDNA doesn't cease to amaze us.

The only way to find out exactly is of course aDNA. And not only lonely wolfs but people on groups which indicate clearly their affiliations.
 
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Its like when I say "Celtic" or in some instances even "Slavic". It doesn't have to mean the majority was E-V13, but carriers of this haplogroup participated in this movements and especially Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt culture surely got involved in the spread of E-V13 from its original source region around the Carpathians. The timing is really ideal for most Western subclades for their departure from the Balkan route a huge portion of E-V13 was taking in the LBA-EIA transition. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon pretty directly influenced the later Hallstatt sphere. E-V13 spread, especially in the regions North of the Danube, the most with Iron making technology.

I am E-V13 and my line moves North and ends in GB. I am listed on YFULL as E-S2979* I am an American and am Predominantly Scandinavian and Celtic Autosomal. I think there are branches like mine that do not fit the overwhelming Balkan Lines. I am not even remotely an expert in this area and am simply trying to figure out my path like everyone else. Any help or advice is appreciated
 
You're tripping Torzio.

Log2 is as big of on outlier as you get. Within the study and compared to previous "Greek" samples.
Definitively showed affinity with further north populations iirc.

Who are you to say "there is no "llyrian" with this marker".
Guess since he was found in Thessaly, he had a Greek Passport from the 20th century. :rolleyes:


Explain to me how it is Illyrian ? as it states Thessalian Greek in all papers


run
[h=3]Project: PRJEB37782[/h]The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing, characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six early to middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mtDNA genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turn-over. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ~50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed towards shaping present-day Greek genomes. Available data: Sample Kou01 (ERS4427108; SAMEA6677576) data: - ERX5011015; ERR5206938: wgs - ERX5011016; ERR5206939: wgs with 5bp trimming on each side - ERX5011017; ERR5206940: nuclear capture Sample Kou03 (ERS4427109; SAMEA6677577) data: - ERX5011018; ERR5206941: wgs - ERX5011019; ERR5206942: wgs with 5bp trimming on each side Sample Log02 (ERS4427110; SAMEA6677578) data: - ERX5011020; ERR5206943: wgs - ERX5011021; ERR5206944: wgs with 5bp trimming on each side - ERX5011022; ERR5206945: nuclear capture Sample Log04 (ERS4427111; SAMEA6677579) data: - ERX5011023; ERR5206946: wgs - ERX5011024; ERR5206947: wgs with 5bp trimming on each side

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB37782


and check for yourself

Looks like an Aegean islander .........anywhere from Samothrace to Crete
 
Are you guys checking out Eurogenes for Log02 and this is why you state north balkans

Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.02346465 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
0.02348404 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.02366432 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.02473075 HUN_BA:I7040
0.02564430 HUN_BA:I7043
0.02668820 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.02867054 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5017
0.03055520 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4885
0.03058513 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538
0.03082012 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3594
0.03132954 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2364
0.03241867 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5520
0.03403351 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5529
0.03472535 BGR_EBA:I2176
0.03477039 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03511965 TUR_Barcin_C:I1584
0.03545194 Bell_Beaker_CHE:I5759
0.03549620 Bell_Beaker_HUN:I7044
0.03570224 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I3529
0.03583462 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I5015
0.03592325 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3590
0.03683640 Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478
0.03756647 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7275
0.03779669 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:I2788
0.03787862 BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d
 
Target: Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 1.4608% / 0.01460805 | R5P
39.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
25.0 Minoan_EBA
20.2 Helladic_EBA
8.0 Cycladic_EBA
7.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi


The Steppe in Log04 appears to be very Steppe_EBA, while the Steppe in Log02 is more similar to Yamnaya Bulgaria.
https://i.imgur.com/5ZEd3a6.png


Target: Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 1.3745% / 0.01374462 | R5P
25.0 Corded_Ware_CHE
21.6 Cycladic_EBA
20.8 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
17.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
15.0 Helladic_EBA


Target: Helladic_MBA:Log02
Distance: 1.4472% / 0.01447164
45.0 BGR_C
28.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.8 BGR_Middle_C
8.8 BGR_Late_C
4.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya



MBA:Log02 to the source pops. The result:

Target: ITA_Etruscan
Distance: 1.4732% / 0.01473164 | R3P
49.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
31.2 Helladic_MBA:Log02
19.4 ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA


Helladic_MBA from Logkas persisted in Epirus until the LBA, then the proto-Etruscans might well be derived from Epirote Pelasgians who picked up Urnfield influence on their way to Italy. Dionysius of Halicarnassus wrote about Argive Pelasgians first migrating to Thessaly and subsequently to Epirus, where they stayed for a prolonged period (and presumably admixed).


Are you linking Pelagians with Etruscans ?
 
Yes. But this has nothing to do with Eurogenes. You can run any calculator you want on it, the DNA speaks for itself.
Did you read the paper by any chance?
7eX1nVj.png

As to what you said " Log02 is in thessally Greece ...............there is no "llyrian" with this marker"
1.Log02 is not a marker. Its what they named a sample.
2.Aegean MBA is not a marker. Its what they named a group of samples.
3.There was clear pure male line steppe introgression in the MBA into these Aegean populations. And here is why Log02 was different, an outlier from all the other samples, even the other outlier Log04.
2T9Mrcr.png

And yes, as you quoted yourself:
Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.02346465 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
0.02348404 HRV_EBA:I3499
0.02366432 HRV_MBA:I4331
0.02473075 HUN_BA:I7040
0.02564430 HUN_BA:I7043
0.02668820 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.02867054 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5017
0.03055520 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4885
0.03058513 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538
0.03082012 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3594
0.03132954 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I2364
0.03241867 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5520
0.03403351 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5529
0.03472535 BGR_EBA:I2176
0.03477039 HRV_MBA:I4332
0.03511965 TUR_Barcin_C:I1584
0.03545194 Bell_Beaker_CHE:I5759
0.03549620 Bell_Beaker_HUN:I7044
0.03570224 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I3529
0.03583462 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA:I5015
0.03592325 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3590
0.03683640 Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478
0.03756647 Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7275
0.03779669 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:I2788
0.03787862 BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d

So yeah, given a patrilineal genetic introgression introgression from a northern vis a vis heterogeneous population to create Log02, one can indeed say that this could be an Illyrian marker.

And before people get butthurt for me using Illyrian marker, check yourself. Its fine to use Aegean MBA for Thessaly, but not fine to use Illyrian for populations stretching from HRV MBA to BG MBA? Double standards.
 
I did not utter a word about Etruscans? Is that bait?

Re-reading the paper, I get the sense, that unless Log02 and 04 are complete outliers, the Genetic continuity from EBA to MBA in Northern Greece is not homogeneous at all.

1-s2.0-S0092867421003706-gr1.jpg




"Log02 does not harbor similarly long ROH, suggesting that the underlying cause may not generally characterize the Helladic-Logkas-MBA (Document S1)."

"Moreover, in the mtDNA, we found no significant (STAR Methods) population structure (AMOVA p value = 0.293) between EBA and MBA Aegeans from the North of Greece (Pella, Paliambela, Xero***ado Koiladas, and Elati-Logkas) (Figure 1; Document S1). Together, these patterns on the X chromosome and mtDNA could be explained by male-biased gene flow from Steppe-like ancestry into the Aegean. Similarly, Goldberg et al. (2017) and Olalde et al. (2019) suggested that the immigration of Pontic-Caspian Steppe populations during the Late Neolithic/EBA in Europe may have involved a much larger number of males than females."


Now the paper had very few samples to draw conclusions.
But taken together with other papers, and seeing the meta, we already know quite a bit.
Geographic heterogeneity, genetic in flows yada yada.
The question is whether Log02,04 are outliers, or good representatives for Northern Greece.
And another fun question is, could this inflows be "the Dorians"... How does the timeline fit.
 

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