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Thread: Suliotet

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Here we are not talking what Suliotes were to Greeks but what they were to themselves.
    Proud Albanian Christian not low subdued Rayahs.

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    Souliotes called and continue to call themselves Souliotes. You speak of Greeks, but i and the whole of Europe knows of Albanian muslims who would even sell their mother for a few benefits, let alone the God they never had. Talk about differences with Arvanites. My people, the Arvanites, would rather die before selling their beliefs. That's why even us called you turkalbanians or even simply turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Have you gone through anything i have actually shared. Janina, during the Ottoman times was the capital of the Vilayet of Janina, which had traditionally an Albanian ruler as a result of the sold-out character associated with the Albanians. Even today they are the small little servant of Turks, let alone then. That doesn't mean anything though, because, the same way Thessaloniki was Jewish, as much Albanian was Janina, meaning this is a joke. Albanians have no history in Epirus, nor even central Albania for that matter. The only began their migrations south in the 14th-16th centuries AD. Last, again Katharevousa was the language of the educated people, not the language of a new nation idiot. Greek is the longest living surviving language of the world. Katharevousa was the language of the educated, and Demotiki was the common language. I already shared links before, did you read any of those?
    No, i don`t have time for the greek propaganda. Instead you read what those people said.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Have you gone through anything i have actually shared. Janina, during the Ottoman times was the capital of the Vilayet of Janina, which had traditionally an Albanian ruler as a result of the sold-out character associated with the Albanians. Even today they are the small little servant of Turks, let alone then. That doesn't mean anything though, because, the same way Thessaloniki was Jewish, as much Albanian was Janina, meaning this is a joke. Albanians have no history in Epirus, nor even central Albania for that matter. The only began their migrations south in the 14th-16th centuries AD. Last, again Katharevousa was the language of the educated people, not the language of a new nation idiot. Greek is the longest living surviving language of the world. Katharevousa was the language of the educated, and Demotiki was the common language. I already shared links before, did you read any of those?
    Again you are making ridiculous claims. Albanians are recorded in the area of Epirus since the 13th century, in 1210 Venetians had mentioned how the land opposite Corfu was inhabited by Albanians. As for central Albania, Albanians have been recorded in that area since the 11th century. Greek isn't the longest surviving language in the world, the Khoisan languages are probably the oldest or among the oldest. As for a language in Europe, Basque is older than Greek.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    It's a real shame how the Arvanite community has reached such high levels of self hate and denial. You should be proud that your ancestors were Albanians, rather than shaming them by making ridiculous claims.
    Who knows who is him? He just pretend to be an Arvanite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exercitus View Post
    Please Vlami Demetrios cut the Bull...., just for you, a special dedication in Albanian\Arberisht(Arvanitika) from the minute 5.29 till 9.12, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZkbgpyQG8&t=567s

    - Όλοι οι κάτοικοι των χωριών του κάμπου και των παραλιών του θεσπρωτικού χώρου , ως κάτω το Φανάρι και τη Σπλάντζα είτε Χριστιανοί είτε Μουσουλμάνοι, είτε άλλου δόγματος, κατά το πλείστον δίγλωσσοι, ως μητρική και κύρια γλώσσα τους αποδέχονταν την Αρβανίτικη. Αυτή δηλαδή που μάθαιναν στο σπίτι τους, από τη γιαγιά και τους γονείς τους. Έτσι όπως μιλιόταν στην εδώ μεριά, με το γλωσσικό ιδίωμα των Τσαμηδων Αρβανιτών.... Και βέβαια παράλληλα μιλούσαν και τη γλώσσα της παιδείας τους, τα Ελληνικά. Ωστόσο, - η γλώσσα του σπιτιού τους, της εργασίας, των παραδόσεων, των θρύλων , των τραγουδιών, των ιστοριών, των παροιμιών και των συνηθειών τους, ήταν η Αρβανίτικη...- That is the definition of being MONOLINGUAL in Albanian\Arvanitika !!

    -
    Μελέτησε τους Τσάμηδες Αρβανίτες ως προς τις συνήθειες , τα ήθη και έθιμα τους , τα τραγούδια και τους χορούς τους , τις παροιμίες και τα παραμύθια τους , τις δοξασίες, τις στολές και τα στολίσματά τους
    http://arvanitiki-grammatiki.gr/




    Ο Μάρκος Μπότσαρης καλεί τους Σουλιώτες αρχηγούς και στρατιώτες «οἶς ἐλάλησεν εἰς τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν, Ἀλβανιστί**», οι δε λόγοι του ήσαν πλήρεις ενθουσιασμού και πατριωτισμού.

    Now a friendly advice do not dare to put in discussion anymore the Albanianity of Suliotes, if you want not get any further shamed by your ignorance !!

    If you like so much the "Greek-Albanian Dictionary" of Marko Bocari, than you should quote it all, and not emphasize only the Greek Loans in the the Suliot Albanian(Tsamiki\Camerishte) sub-dialect, wich even the today Cam\Tsamides muslims have - the greek loans are equaly distributed in the Cam\Tsamides Orthodox and Muslims, due to the direct contact with the greek-speaking comunity in Epirus - . Read it again and say me, how much of the Albanian\Arvanitika words do you understand ??

    https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/47...ew_mode=scroll


    Don't play the smartass with me idiot. I already offered above to share the whole dictionary. But the subjects have been changing with each post. And by the way, what have i lied about. Isn't the vastness of Greek loan words real? Did i made this up? We never called ourselves Tsams but Arvanites, the same goes for the Souliotes. And again, when have i said that Arvanitika is not an medieval Albanian dialect. Have you even read the discussion hayvan? The thing you don't seem to understand in my points, is that the Arvanites and the Souliotes as well, are today part of the Greek population and will never call themselves Albanians nor fight against Greece, such as you do daily pissing on their actual achievements. I am the Arvanite here, not you. You are just a gypsie running behind me asking for some coins as a beggar. That's the analogy of your situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Souliotes called and continue to call themselves Souliotes. You speak of Greeks, but i and the whole of Europe knows of Albanian muslims who would even sell their mother for a few benefits, let alone the God they never had. Talk about differences with Arvanites. My people, the Arvanites, would rather die before selling their beliefs. That's why even us called you turkalbanians or even simply turks.
    You mean my people

    IMG_3253.jpg

    You have still to find out if they are yours.
    Our you are just a Greek that these Glorious people took under their wing for protection or house service.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Again you are making ridiculous claims. Albanians are recorded in the area of Epirus since the 13th century, in 1210 Venetians had mentioned how the land opposite Corfu was inhabited by Albanians. As for central Albania, Albanians have been recorded in that area since the 11th century. Greek isn't the longest surviving language in the world, the Khoisan languages are probably the oldest or among the oldest. As for a language in Europe, Basque is older than Greek.
    LOL. What's ridiculous about my claims. Albanians did indeed began massive migrations south during the 14th century, which is 1300-1400. There were only a few nomadiv Albanian families from the 11th century. Do you even think it changes anything? The whole point is you are not indigenous in Epirus, nor central Albania for that matter. You think 150-200 years makes a difference, and again these 14th century map refers to mass migrations, not a few families attested opposite the island of Corfu.

    As for the language, Khoisan is not written. The same way we can claim that the Zulu language is the oldest surviving language. If there is no proof, then it is a void statement. Languages change all the time. Medieval English is not understandable today by modern English people, not that it is different, but it is so foreign that people don't understand it. The same can happen in 500 years from now, and we might be speaking about a new language family. The same hasn't happened with Greek which has an actual provable history of 3700 years. The hypothesis about the proto-Greek go even earlier at 3000 BCE, and again, guess where it was formed. In Epirus of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You idiot, stop playing the stupid card. You simply wrote nonsense, and i simply correct you. You wrote they only used the Greek alphabet, and i wrote you that they were totally Hellenized and spoke Greek as their main language. What don't you understand? Did i say they were Greeks? What does the word "Hellenized" supposed to mean in this sentence? I simply mentioned the Daorsi to show you that Greek colonies and Hellenizied Illyrians were much more common than you think. Greek influence was everywhere in the Mediterranean. The Thracians were also completely Hellenized by the Roman era.

    Second. How i know i am Arvanite? What a stupid question is this? Do you even have a brain? I know because my family is an Arvanite family, always has been. And i don't have to prove anything to you. Lol, why would i care about so-called Albanian (crypto-Greek) DNA. I might as well look for actual Greek haplogroups when i make the test. You speak of matches with Albanians, yet i know Albanians who have matches with Greeks who haven't even heard of Arvanites yet they share DNA. By the way, i am referring to autosomal DNA, which is all i am interested in. Greek presence in Albania has been off the charts, even more than Thrace. There is a reason it was called Illyria Graeca.
    Clearly you need a brain ECHO! Regardless your views in the topic keep the conversation civilized. Keep the facts straight. Greeks had minimal influence over Illyrians. Illyrians were tribal people, and as such were hard to embrace the foreigner. The evidence of that is overwhelming. Greek language penetration in Albanians is minimal, keeping in mind that Hellenic culture of its time was powerful. Also archeology reveals minimal penetration of Greek architecture of its time. In places where Greeks tried to create colonies there is more Roman footprints than Greek. Keeping in mind the rough character of Illyrians would be too much to believe they left the Greeks to run wild in their territories. I have hard time to believe you are Arvanite. If you were you at least would admit there is no Greek nationality at present in Greece. Genetically Greece today is a genetic brothel. All kind of hominids on Earth left a footprint. Not in Albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You mean my people

    IMG_3253.jpg

    You have still to find out if they are yours.
    Our you are just a Greek that these Glorious people took under their wing for protection or house service.



    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    You actually show my people, somewhere in that blue is my village and the villages of my neighbors. And you do know that what you are showing in blue is actually the Peloponnese administrative region, doesn't really have to do anything with the presence of Arvanites. Why isn't Attica and Epirus as blue as the region of Peloponnese. I thought these where all crypto-Arvanites regions. You are just jokers people. Just accept, you originate from Peloponnesus my fellow Greekling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    LOL. What's ridiculous about my claims. Albanians did indeed began massive migrations south during the 14th century, which is 1300-1400. There were only a few nomadiv Albanian families from the 11th century. Do you even think it changes anything? The whole point is you are not indigenous in Epirus, nor central Albania for that matter. You think 150-200 years makes a difference, and again these 14th century map refers to mass migrations, not a few families attested opposite the island of Corfu.

    As for the language, Khoisan is not written. The same way we can claim that the Zulu language is the oldest surviving language. If there is no proof, then it is a void statement. Languages change all the time. Medieval English is not understandable today by modern English people, not that it is different, but it is so foreign that people don't understand it. The same can happen in 500 years from now, and we might be speaking about a new language family. The same hasn't happened with Greek which has an actual provable history of 3700 years. The hypothesis about the proto-Greek go even earlier at 3000 BCE, and again, guess where it was formed. In Epirus of course.
    Sure there was an increased influx of Albanians into Epirus during the 14th century, but the fact that Venetians claimed that the whole of the land opposite Epirus was inhabited by Albanians goes to show that they formed the majority or were in very large numbers since the 1200s. Can you provide evidence that Albanians aren't native to central Albania? There are records since the 11th century that mention Albanians in central Albania, the oldest Albanian state was formed around central and northern Albania in 1190.

    Nope, Khoisan has probably had the least foreign influence than the vast majority of present day languages and it is well established through genetics that the Khoisan are one of the oldest populations on Earth. The point is that Greek clearly isn't the oldest language, to claim such a thing is plain stupid. The Greek language is a later PIE one and so is younger than many languages, some of which still survive such as the Basque language. The Greek language has gone through a lot of changes btw and isn't the same as classical Greek. Can you provide evidence that Greek formed in Epirus other than a map created by an unknown source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Clearly you need a brain ECHO! Regardless your views in the topic keep the conversation civilized. Keep the facts straight. Greeks had minimal influence over Illyrians. Illyrians were tribal people, and as such were hard to embrace the foreigner. The evidence of that is overwhelming. Greek language penetration in Albanians is minimal, keeping in mind that Hellenic culture of its time was powerful. Also archeology reveals minimal penetration of Greek architecture of its time. In places where Greeks tried to create colonies there is more Roman footprints than Greek. Keeping in mind the rough character of Illyrians would be too much to believe they left the Greeks to run wild in their territories. I have hard time to believe you are Arvanite. If you were you at least would admit there is no Greek nationality at present in Greece. Genetically Greece today is a genetic brothel. All kind of hominids on Earth left a footprint. Not in Albania.
    You need to study the whole thread, and you obviously need a brain, because i didn't write that Greeks completely Hellenized the Illyrians. I write that Greek infiltration even as north as Dalmatia was very present. Daorsi is one of the most famous Dalmatian Illyrian tribes, and they spoke Greek as their first language, yet you think this is a small thing. This goes on to show you that the interaction was much higher than what the map shows. Illyrians were tribal people, so where the Greeks originally, but they evolved. The same happened with the Illyrians in different stages. And the absorption was mostly Latin and Greek.


    Roman footprints are on top of Greek ones. This is a very usual lie told in Albania. They name every Greek presence Roman, when it was actually Greek, because they don't want to admit the Greek presence. How many Albanians know today that Lissus, Durres, Apollonia, Aulon, and so many other were actually Greek cities. Not Greek cities, and then Romanized, but actually Greek cities. Romans never Romanized a single Greek., except some in southern Epirus because they had fought them previously. The rough character of the Illyrians wasn't really a thing, Illyrians looked to trade and Greeks were their best partners. Some became Hellenized, other became billingual, while other simply simply retained their Illyrian identity and traded with them, until the Romans and then the Slavs wiped them out as people.
    Why would an Arvanite admit such a lie as no Greek nationality. If anything genetic studies have already proven that Greek people are very indigenous and with a small dilution of Bronze Age DNA. Go study the papers. If anything you don't even know the first thing about Albanian DNA. If we are a brothel then you are in parallel with us, because that's what the studies show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Sure there was an increased influx of Albanians into Epirus during the 14th century, but the fact that Venetians claimed that the whole of the land opposite Epirus was inhabited by Albanians goes to show that they formed the majority or were in very large numbers since the 1200s. Can you provide evidence that Albanians aren't native to central Albania? There are records since the 11th century that mention Albanians in central Albania, the oldest Albanian state was formed around central and northern Albania in 1190.

    Nope, Khoisan has probably had the least foreign influence than the vast majority of present day languages and it is well established through genetics that the Khoisan are one of the oldest populations on Earth. The point is that Greek clearly isn't the oldest language, to claim such a thing is plain stupid. The Greek language is a later PIE one and so is younger than many languages, some of which still survive such as the Basque language. The Greek language has gone through a lot of changes btw and isn't the same as classical Greek. Can you provide evidence that Greek formed in Epirus other than a map created by an unknown source?
    The Venetian document simply claimed that the region opposite the island of Corfu, on the coastal area had Albanians. Obviously that's the first mention in Epirus, but since we don't have any actual numbers and we are informed that Albanians came in mass only in the 14th century, it suggests they weren't that much to begin with. Sure there were Albanian States beginning at the end of the 11th century, but even this, namely the Principality of Arbanon in 1190-1255, was in the Kroja region of northern Albania. As for evidence in regards to central Albania. There hasn't been a single mention of Albanians in central Albania before the Middle Ages. The only clue we have is the city of Albanopolis, inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which seems to be related with Albanians from very early, but nothing southern than that.


    Khoisan people belong to Y-DNA haplogroup A, that's the only reason they hold a title as one of the most ancient people on Earth, and they could very well be. But you are missing the point. My argument is that Greek is the world's oldest recorded living language, and it is. I didn't claim Greek is not Indo-European, nor that Khoisan might not have even an older spoken language. Maybe i didn't explain myself as well.
    As for the proto-Greek language, it is pretty much accepted in linguistics that proto-Greek was formed in the region of the Pindus mountain range. Not just Epirus, but parts of Thessaly and western Macedon as well. This specific map is based on Vladimir I. Georgiev, a famous Bulgarian linguist now diseased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You need to study the whole thread, and you obviously need a brain, because i didn't write that Greeks completely Hellenized the Illyrians. I write that Greek infiltration even as north as Dalmatia was very present. Daorsi is one of the most famous Dalmatian Illyrian tribes, and they spoke Greek as their first language, yet you think this is a small thing. This goes on to show you that the interaction was much higher than what the map shows. Illyrians were tribal people, so where the Greeks originally, but they evolved. The same happened with the Illyrians in different stages. And the absorption was mostly Latin and Greek.


    Roman footprints are on top of Greek ones. This is a very usual lie told in Albania. They name every Greek presence Roman, when it was actually Greek, because they don't want to admit the Greek presence. How many Albanians know today that Lissus, Durres, Apollonia, Aulon, and so many other were actually Greek cities. Not Greek cities, and then Romanized, but actually Greek cities. Romans never Romanized a single Greek., except some in southern Epirus because they had fought them previously. The rough character of the Illyrians wasn't really a thing, Illyrians looked to trade and Greeks were their best partners. Some became Hellenized, other became billingual, while other simply simply retained their Illyrian identity and traded with them, until the Romans and then the Slavs wiped them out as people.
    Why would an Arvanite admit such a lie as no Greek nationality. If anything genetic studies have already proven that Greek people are very indigenous and with a small dilution of Bronze Age DNA. Go study the papers. If anything you don't even know the first thing about Albanian DNA. If we are a brothel then you are in parallel with us, because that's what the studies show.
    Listen dude, i have noticed that you like to play with maps from crapipedia( think for a moment that tomorrow Wikipedia just stop, 99% of the Greek members on the forums will disappear).
    What you have posted you is an illustration of an theory called Jirecek line. This theory talks about the influence of the Greek language this does not means that people who lived in both sides of the line were simply latins and Greeks. But as i said it`s only a theory:

    Jireček Line

    The Jireček Line is a conceptual boundary through the ancient Balkans that divides the influence of the Latin (in the north) and Greek (in the south) languages in the Roman Empire from Antiquity until the 4th century. It goes from near the city of Laçi in modern Albania to Serdica (now Sofia, in Bulgaria) and then follows the Balkan Mountains to Odessus (Varna) on the Black Sea. However, the proposed line is a theoretical tool only, and Latinized groups live south of the line, such as the Aromanians, Meglenites, Cutzovlachs (Greek: Βλαχοι), and Moscopolitans. Even so, it is a useful — although approximate — instrument for determining which influence a certain area was predominantly exposed to. The placement of the line is based on archaeological findings: most of the inscriptions found to the north of it are written in Latin, and most of the inscriptions found to the south of it are in Greek.
    This line is important in establishing the area where the Romanian and Vlach people formed (see origin of the Romanians).
    It was originally used by Czech historian Konstantin Jireček in 1911 in a history of the Slavic people.
    More recent scholars have revised it somewhat: Kaimio (1979) places Dalmatia and Moesia Superior in the Latin area and Moesia Inferior in the Greek sphere. MacLeod (1982) suggests that there may not have been "an official language policy for each and every aspect of life" but that "individual Roman officials [made] common sense ad hoc decisions". He also points out that while the area was under Roman rule, "even in Greek areas... Latin was the dominant language in inscriptions recording public works, on milestones, and in the army".
    But personally i prefer FACTS, not theories:

    Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum



    The praetorian prefecture of Illyricum (375-379)


    Praetorian Prefectures of the Roman Empire (375-379)

    Where are the Greeks here? Even Crete was part of Illyricum. And When Constantine the Great divided his Empire, Crete continued to be part of the Western Empire. How do you explain this? Because this is not an theory but a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    You need to study the whole thread, and you obviously need a brain, because i didn't write that Greeks completely Hellenized the Illyrians. I write that Greek infiltration even as north as Dalmatia was very present. Daorsi is one of the most famous Dalmatian Illyrian tribes, and they spoke Greek as their first language, yet you think this is a small thing. This goes on to show you that the interaction was much higher than what the map shows. Illyrians were tribal people, so where the Greeks originally, but they evolved. The same happened with the Illyrians in different stages. And the absorption was mostly Latin and Greek.


    Roman footprints are on top of Greek ones. This is a very usual lie told in Albania. They name every Greek presence Roman, when it was actually Greek, because they don't want to admit the Greek presence. How many Albanians know today that Lissus, Durres, Apollonia, Aulon, and so many other were actually Greek cities. Not Greek cities, and then Romanized, but actually Greek cities. Romans never Romanized a single Greek., except some in southern Epirus because they had fought them previously. The rough character of the Illyrians wasn't really a thing, Illyrians looked to trade and Greeks were their best partners. Some became Hellenized, other became billingual, while other simply simply retained their Illyrian identity and traded with them, until the Romans and then the Slavs wiped them out as people.
    Why would an Arvanite admit such a lie as no Greek nationality. If anything genetic studies have already proven that Greek people are very indigenous and with a small dilution of Bronze Age DNA. Go study the papers. If anything you don't even know the first thing about Albanian DNA. If we are a brothel then you are in parallel with us, because that's what the studies show.
    Yes we know that there were Greek colonies in places you mentioned. The best way to judge the impact is the archeology. Greek pottery and columns, and theaters are distinct from the Romans . Its not hard to tell one from the other. And Greek impact is minimal. Illyrians fought 250 years against Romans. It was not easy to conquer them. Certainly Greeks were not match for them since Illyrians had more manpower. So Greek genetic influence in Albania is insignificant. No genetic footprints from Turks which is strange, also minimal from Romans. Romans have a bigger genetic influence in Greece. The average Greek has 15% of its genes from Romans and a considerable amounts from Turkey. So you have been disoriented by Greek propaganda which is ballooned in any aspect . Since you are Arvanite you should be able to emotionally separate yourself from that propaganda and see the facts. Even if in best scenario Greeks were as the Greeks propaganda says, as an Arvanite you have no moral right to take pride of their achievements since they were not your ancestors genetically speaking. Arvanites arrived in Greece in 10 century AD. So my advice to you is read the western publications, to get a real picture of history of the area. Until then we can talk a fact based conversation. If GREEK INFLUENCE IN Albania WERE AS YOU ARE SAYING Albania would have the archeology Sicily and South Italy has which is overwhelming

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    Demetrios (arb: Dhimitri\Mitro) You are just a extremist ignorant, nothing more, i do not intend to waste my time with people like you, who suffer from low self-esteem and complex of inferiority. I do not give a damn how you feel, i do not give a damn about your own identity (wich is totaly a arbitrary and discretional issue !!), the ethnic origin and the mother tongue are the criteria that establish your identity, if you don't agree with that and prefer instead to be called descendant of Aristotle, Alexander the Grat, Perikles etc that's your damn problem !!Do not confuse Historical Facts with your identitary's issue, leave Historiography apart from the psichological disturbs and frustrations of a bunch of radical folk . Just to point out some Bull.... that you affirmed ;
    1) "Albanian entered in central Albania when Arvanites (Medieval Orthodox Albanians!!) leaved"- , do you understand how Fu.... stupid is that ?! You are just descendant of Orthodox Albanians who emigrated in Greece during the XIV century, THAT'S ALL, DEAL IT !!
    2) "Arvanites were bilingual", No way... even after the second World War in the region of Attica, Beotia etc there were Monolingual Albanophone Elders !!
    3) To correct you, Suliotes are not Arvanites (Historically speaking), because they are from Western Epirus and that makes them Cam\Tsamides orthodoxs, they called their language SHQIP ( Albanian language in Albanian, not ARBERISHT, wich is the medieval name of the Albanian language !!) ok
    Now keep calm and learn a little bit Arvanitika !!

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    Wow, you stunned me. I guess 4 years of a Roman administrative division under the name of Illyricum was enough to wipe out the whole of Greek dominance over the Balkans. Maybe Carthaginians also viewed themselves as part of Italia and Spaniards as part of the Gals. You are a genius mate. Not really, in case you are indeed that dumb to believe i am being serious with you. The good thing with the above two maps is that other people also view them and then they immediately grasp how much desperate you might be to use this as evidence for some fairy-tale of yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The Venetian document simply claimed that the region opposite the island of Corfu, on the coastal area had Albanians. Obviously that's the first mention in Epirus, but since we don't have any actual numbers and we are informed that Albanians came in mass only in the 14th century, it suggests they weren't that much to begin with. Sure there were Albanian States beginning at the end of the 11th century, but even this, namely the Principality of Arbanon in 1190-1255, was in the Kroja region of northern Albania. As for evidence in regards to central Albania. There hasn't been a single mention of Albanians in central Albania before the Middle Ages. The only clue we have is the city of Albanopolis, inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which seems to be related with Albanians from very early, but nothing southern than that.


    Khoisan people belong to Y-DNA haplogroup A, that's the only reason they hold a title as one of the most ancient people on Earth, and they could very well be. But you are missing the point. My argument is that Greek is the world's oldest recorded living language, and it is. I didn't claim Greek is not Indo-European, nor that Khoisan might not have even an older spoken language. Maybe i didn't explain myself as well.
    As for the proto-Greek language, it is pretty much accepted in linguistics that proto-Greek was formed in the region of the Pindus mountain range. Not just Epirus, but parts of Thessaly and western Macedon as well. This specific map is based on Vladimir I. Georgiev, a famous Bulgarian linguist now diseased.
    But before the Venetian document we have Tabula Rogeriana of the Arab Muhammad al-Idrisi Muslim geographer, cartographer and Egyptologist:
    1154
    Muhammad al-Idrisi:
    The Book of Roger

    These mountains are called Lessû (Lezha) and at the top of them there is a town of the same name. They stretch northwards up to Kastoria and there is also a chain of them across from Drast (Durrës) through which the road leading to that town and elsewhere passes. There, the mountain range is called al-Tamûra (Tomor). Three rivers which flow towards Lablûna (Vlora) and Durrës take their sources there. The first river, that of Vlora, is called the Shuzza (Vjosa), the second is called the Dâblî (Devoll) and the third is called Istrîna (Drin).
    And here is the map of the region:


    Source: Extract from: H. Bresc & A. Nef (ed.): Idrîsî, la première géographie de l'Occident, Paris 1999, p. 401-403; and E. Cerulli, F. Gabrieli, G. Levi della Vida, L. Petech, G. Tucci (ed.): Al-Idrisi, Opus Geographicum, Fasc. V, Naples & Rome 1975, p. 792-793. Translated by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 21-22.

    The map is up-side down but you can read down in the middle written in red Lablûna and gimara, which mean Laberia and Himara, 50 years before the Venetian document. And let`s not forget that the first Albanian mentioned at the begining of second millenium is an Muzaka:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzaka_family
    Muzaka family

    The Muzaka were an Albanian noble family that ruled over the region of Myzeqe (central Albania) in the Late Middle Ages. The Muzaka are also referred to by some authors as a tribe or a clan.[4][1] The earliest historical document that mention Muzaka family is written in 1090 by the Byzantine historian Anna Komnene.
    Muzaka were Tosk Albanians.
    About Vladimir I. Georgiev, proto-greeks in Epir and other BS like this, let me remember that Vladimir I. Georgiev is not a credible source. For example he has this strange theory that Greeks didn`t borrowed the alphabet from the Phonecians and that Bulgarians are descendants of Thracians and they are just greeks para pente, 5 minutes late for being Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Wow, you stunned me. I guess 4 years of a Roman administrative division under the name of Illyricum was enough to wipe out the whole of Greek dominance over the Balkans. Maybe Carthaginians also viewed themselves as part of Italia and Spaniards as part of the Gals. You are a genius mate. Not really, in case you are indeed that dumb to believe i am being serious with you. The good thing with the above two maps is that other people also view them and then they immediately grasp how much desperate you might be to use this as evidence for some fairy-tale of yours.
    And here you have Diocese of Illyricum:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    The Venetian document simply claimed that the region opposite the island of Corfu, on the coastal area had Albanians. Obviously that's the first mention in Epirus, but since we don't have any actual numbers and we are informed that Albanians came in mass only in the 14th century, it suggests they weren't that much to begin with. Sure there were Albanian States beginning at the end of the 11th century, but even this, namely the Principality of Arbanon in 1190-1255, was in the Kroja region of northern Albania. As for evidence in regards to central Albania. There hasn't been a single mention of Albanians in central Albania before the Middle Ages. The only clue we have is the city of Albanopolis, inhabited by the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi which seems to be related with Albanians from very early, but nothing southern than that.


    Khoisan people belong to Y-DNA haplogroup A, that's the only reason they hold a title as one of the most ancient people on Earth, and they could very well be. But you are missing the point. My argument is that Greek is the world's oldest recorded living language, and it is. I didn't claim Greek is not Indo-European, nor that Khoisan might not have even an older spoken language. Maybe i didn't explain myself as well.
    As for the proto-Greek language, it is pretty much accepted in linguistics that proto-Greek was formed in the region of the Pindus mountain range. Not just Epirus, but parts of Thessaly and western Macedon as well. This specific map is based on Vladimir I. Georgiev, a famous Bulgarian linguist now diseased.
    Arbanon didn't only include Kruja but also regions around Elbasan. Albanians were recorded in the area around Durres in 1043 as well. The Khoisan aren't only claimed to be the oldest population based on Y-DNA A but also because of autosomal DNA. They are a pretty basal and aren't even closely related to other African groups, they show an earlier split from the other populations. Fact is that Greek isn't the oldest living language, who cares if it is the oldest recorded or written living language lol, even that is debatable

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Yes we know that there were Greek colonies in places you mentioned. The best way to judge the impact is the archeology. Greek pottery and columns, and theaters are distinct from the Romans . Its not hard to tell one from the other. And Greek impact is minimal. Illyrians fought 250 years against Romans. It was not easy to conquer them. Certainly Greeks were not match for them since Illyrians had more manpower. So Greek genetic influence in Albania is insignificant. No genetic footprints from Turks which is strange, also minimal from Romans. Romans have a bigger genetic influence in Greece. The average Greek has 15% of its genes from Romans and a considerable amounts from Turkey. So you have been disoriented by Greek propaganda which is ballooned in any aspect . Since you are Arvanite you should be able to emotionally separate yourself from that propaganda and see the facts. Even if in best scenario Greeks were as the Greeks propaganda says, as an Arvanite you have no moral right to take pride of their achievements since they were not your ancestors genetically speaking. Arvanites arrived in Greece in 10 century AD. So my advice to you is read the western publications, to get a real picture of history of the area. Until then we can talk a fact based conversation. If GREEK INFLUENCE IN Albania WERE AS YOU ARE SAYING Albania would have the archeology Sicily and South Italy has which is overwhelming
    So, theaters being distinct from the original classical Greeks is a way to distinguish Greeks from Romans. Do you know that the same thing happened everywhere? The same is true for the very theaters in Greece. You seem to lose the point. Romans ruled all these areas, and they adored theaters a certain way and planned a city a certain way, that doesn't mean Romans came and replaced the Greeks living in those areas.
    The famous theater of Athens is also a Roman stylized theater, so is the ones in Argos, etc..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqz1zxGDTA

    Also, Greeks were not trying to conquer the Illyrians. They certainly didn't win the Roman in a fight, but they managed to Hellenize them and even the Roman Emperors and elites used to speak Greek between them, even though they were Romans.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFohTu9n8_Q

    And the question is not for the influence of Greeks in Albania, but of the influence of the Greeks in Dalmatia and Pannonia. Albania was already named Illyria Graeca by the time of the Romans, so it was fully Hellenized.


    There is no matter of appropriating Greek history and feeling pride. I truly believe and see that Arvanites as well as Albanians are all part of the same cluster as Greeks. Genetic studies have already proved that. You simply have to study them. And by the way i am referring to western publications. The similarity is certainly there. Now, was it a result of Palaeo-Balkan Albanians sometime diverging north, or it was a result of Palaeo-Balkan Greeks sometime diverging south, more study is needed, but both are the same people. And no, Arvanites are not to blame being just 200,000 descendants in a total of 11,000,000.

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    ILLYRICUM, Roman province
    David Rumsey Historical Map Collection

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    there is no matter of appropriating Greek history and feeling pride. I truly believe and see that Arvanites as well as Albanians are all part of the same cluster as Greeks. Genetic studies have already proved that. You simply have to study them. And by the way i am referring to western publications. The similarity is certainly there. Now, was it a result of Palaeo-Balkan Albanians sometime diverging north, or it was a result of Palaeo-Balkan Greeks sometime diverging south, more study is needed, but both are the same people. And no, Arvanites are not to blame being just 200,000 descendants in a total of 11,000,000.
    Albanians and Greeks aren't part of the same cluster, they are genetically very similar but not part of the same cluster. It is clear that Albanians have a different genetic make up to Greeks which is why they cluster differently, Albanians show higher levels of steppe and WHG admixture than Greeks do. Arvanites today may cluster closer to Greeks but this is certainly just from the fact that they have mixed extensively with Greeks, but it doesn't change the fact that they have Albanian origin.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Albanians and Greeks aren't part of the same cluster, they are genetically very similar but not part of the same cluster. It is clear that Albanians have a different genetic make up to Greeks which is why they cluster differently, Albanians show higher levels of steppe and WHG admixture than Greeks do. Arvanites today may cluster closer to Greeks but this is certainly just from the fact that they have mixed extensively with Greeks, but it doesn't change the fact that they have Albanian origin.
    Before the middle ages albanians and greeks would cluster even further apart than now.
    A big chunk of the DNA albanians and greeks have in common is due to albanian genes which penetrated greece in the middle ages. Before that penetration there would have been even less genes in common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    Clearly you need a brain ECHO! Regardless your views in the topic keep the conversation civilized. Keep the facts straight. Greeks had minimal influence over Illyrians. Illyrians were tribal people, and as such were hard to embrace the foreigner. The evidence of that is overwhelming. Greek language penetration in Albanians is minimal, keeping in mind that Hellenic culture of its time was powerful. Also archeology reveals minimal penetration of Greek architecture of its time. In places where Greeks tried to create colonies there is more Roman footprints than Greek. Keeping in mind the rough character of Illyrians would be too much to believe they left the Greeks to run wild in their territories. I have hard time to believe you are Arvanite. If you were you at least would admit there is no Greek nationality at present in Greece. Genetically Greece today is a genetic brothel. All kind of hominids on Earth left a footprint. Not in Albania.
    Read Simon Simeonsis about Albania of 13 century.
    It will help you have a better Idea,
    in fact all the dates brings back Maniaki general and his army, or start with Makiakis revolt,
    coincidence?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrios View Post
    Wow, you stunned me. I guess 4 years of a Roman administrative division under the name of Illyricum was enough to wipe out the whole of Greek dominance over the Balkans. Maybe Carthaginians also viewed themselves as part of Italia and Spaniards as part of the Gals. You are a genius mate. Not really, in case you are indeed that dumb to believe i am being serious with you. The good thing with the above two maps is that other people also view them and then they immediately grasp how much desperate you might be to use this as evidence for some fairy-tale of yours.
    Stop thinking the greeks were the Romans, cause they weren't.

    "Greek Dominance over the balkans". There is no such greek dominance. This is trying to portray the qualities that the Roman Empire had and superimpose it retroactively on to the greeks, when the nature of the greek presence in the balkans was entirely different and a different historical phenomenon. Even the greek "colonies" on the coast of Illyria were entirely insignificant from a population perspective.

    Key words:
    "never more than just trading centres along the coast"
    "no evidence that the interior was ever settled by a rural Greek population"

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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