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Thread: Y DNA of Muslims/Bosniaks from Sandžak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Dema, it’s a well known fact in Kosove that Idriz Seferi was Laraman (Crypto-catholic)

    His probably daughter or younger sister is my great grandfather wife, the one i use in Foleja avatar. I will ask for more specific details.
    He is like my uncle, i will probably test them once i have time to go in my home village. They should be my closer autosomal relatives.

    They were all declaring Muslims in that time, extremely nationalistic Albanian based. Its probably what united them against Chetniks, Bulgars, and later partizans and communists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    His probably daughter or younger sister is my great grandfather wife, the one i use in Foleja avatar. I will ask for more specific details.
    He is like my uncle, i will probably test them once i have time to go in my home village. They should be my closer autosomal relatives.

    They were all declaring Muslims in that time, extremely nationalistic Albanian based. Its probably what united them against Chetniks, Bulgars, and later partizans and communists.
    That’s what Laraman or Crypto-Catholic means, they declare to be Muslims to outsiders but in reality at home they practice Christianity (usually women kept the old traditions while men pretended to be Muslims). There were many such cases in Kosove, it wasn’t just them. Most however after the 1999’s war came out and declare to be Catholics now. Like some Gashi and Sopi in Llapushnik for example.

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    Y DNA of Muslims/Bosniaks from Sandžak

    The problem with the Albanian Beys at League of Prizren (Albanian elite of that time) was that they were loyal to Sultan, were fully Osmanized (probably Muslim faith helped here) so majority of them did not support Adyl Frashëri for the autonomy. This was a huge draw back for Albanian independence movement even though was clear that Ottoman Empire was to weak to last. The Albanian Beys waited till 1912 to accepted the Austrian offer after their feuds were lost to Serb and Greek Armies during the first Balkan War. Due to their lack of vision of their elites, Albanians lost half of their territory. To imply that Muslim faith preserved Albanian nationality is exaggerated.... we know now that Muslim faith has not made our walk toward Europe easy. If Albanian could keep their Catholic faith our story could have been different. Look at Croatia. Personally believe that Catholic faith is the one that Albanians should follow considering their history and considering that Constantine was from that area, but again remains a personal choice that every one should consider in free will, not as compensation nor under threat. My family comes from a region that followed Bektashi Oder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bektashi_Order, but I decided to choose Catholic religion as my personal choice.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    That’s what Laraman or Crypto-Catholic means, they declare to be Muslims to outsiders but in reality at home they practice Christianity (usually women kept the old traditions while men pretended to be Muslims). There were many such cases in Kosove, it wasn’t just them. Most however after the 1999’s war came out and declare to be Catholics now. Like some Gashi and Sopi in Llapushnik for example.

    Idriz Seferi was for sure not practicing Christianity at home while pretending to be Muslim, but i dont deny they were Christian before, even his father has Muslim name meaning his grandfather was Muslim.. Also they had much worse problems in that time then to play games.

    Regarding Gashi and Sopi from Llapushnik, i am glad, everyone is free to chose his own religion and way of life. Albanians are known to be religion and ethnic wise tolerant people.
    As you see in these modern days we even have LGBT organisations parading capital cities..



    I read that article about Idirz Seferi statue, i think its propaganda, no one even cares in Kosovo for things like that. People are hungry and they need jobs and quality state.
    Modern Kosovo Muslim Albanians are typical Europeans, there is no difference in anything.
    Young generations dont even know about these things, they dont know tribe they belong, they are not interested in anything of this we are debating here.
    They have entirely other problems.. This article is about Muslims and Catholics fighting over Idriz Seferi figure where regular population is being lied and further thrown into economic abyss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Idriz Seferi was for sure not practicing Christianity at home while pretending to be Muslim, but i dont deny they were Christian before, even his father has Muslim name meaning his grandfather was Muslim.. Also they had much worse problems in that time then to play games.
    Only you seem to be unaware, Dema. He was Laraman, hence why those rag head Wahhabis attempted to bring down his statue. It's not propaganda, that shit happened and was all over the media.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Only you seem to be unaware, Dema. He was Laraman, hence why those rag head Wahhabi's attempted to bring down his statue. It's not propaganda, that shit happened and was all over the media.

    Anyway, it doesn't matter.

    Well yes, i hear first time for this Laraman Idriz Seferi thing. I will personally explore this issue in future. But i would not trust news and media they are all in various religious or political clubs.

    Whoever tried to hurt his statue should have been immediately imprisoned by state. Who knows who payed them, things are not always as they seem. But i am aware of religious exploitation that is happening among Albanians and it should be punished by law. No one has right to exploit anyone and for sure not in religious way.

    Its minority of imbeciles, but sadly media give them space.

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    Looks like his statue was destroyed because Mucibaba villagers are angry to have another village hero in their village. Especially because their village hero does not have statue.
    And of course it pissed them off so much that they will now say anything against him. News just used all this to make it like it has anything with religion or anything.

    There is elder guy from Mucibaba village saying there is only one hero in this village and there cant be two heroes.
    When he is asked who is that hero, he says: Ymer Myqybaba who fought in 1944. He says Idriz Seferi has his own village and place lol, and entire village is in police and community revolting.
    https://youtu.be/d0gxaEqLRBI?t=85 This is typical for Albanians..

    BTW Idriz has his official statues in Gjilan and Kacanik, this is some amateur statue in Mucibaba, very low quality and bad looking. All this looks very suspicious.



    Also i would like to deny all these speculations that he was Catholic or anything. That is more Kosovo Catholic lobby wish then reality. He was Muslim Albanian and he fought for Albanians, that's it. I dont know where this story even come from, looks Catholic lobby payed for this story in news after Mucibaba villagers destroyed his statue that was not anyways put there officially by state but rather by some amateur individual artist.
    Entire Zhegra were very nationalistic based Muslims in that time.. At least Albanians.
    Last edited by Dema; 08-05-19 at 06:07.

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    Lol Dema, just leave it dude. You would like to deny it but you can’t because multiple sources confirm what I stated, even Serbian ethnographers who I am sure had nothing to do with the ‘catholic lobby’. Don’t give me childish excuses.
    Last edited by Leka; 06-05-19 at 17:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Lol Dema, just leave it dude. You would like to deny it but you can’t because multiple sources confirm what I stated, even Serbian ethnographers who I am sure had nothing to do with the ‘catholic lobby’. Don’t give me childish excuses.
    This Laramani thing is new for me, what does it means?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Lol Dema, just leave it dude. You would like to deny it but you can’t because multiple sources confirm what I stated, even Serbian ethnographers who I am sure had nothing to do with the ‘catholic lobby’. Don’t give me childish excuses.

    I simply gave my honest opinion. I would never deny it if i thought there is a grain of truth inside. At least without further investigation.

    Like these Mucibaba villagers know anything of that lol please? Someone has pumped their heads with these ideas, someone very intelligent and malicious, besides you heard the old fellow from Mucibaba he never mentioned religion, he is mentioning his own village hero he says Idriz has his own village. You know Albanians common xD

    Its clear that Serbian Orthodoix lobby created this lie in Yugoslavia and modern Catholic lobby is abusing it.
    Urosevic was anti-Albanian sentiment writer and also he was directed and sponsored by Serbia and censored by SANU. Dont forget SANU also sponsored Deretic.
    Urosevic can be trusted only that far where he writes which Albanian families arrived in 18 or 19 century, only because of reason so he can make all other Serbs in order to represent Kosovo like it was 100 % Serbian ethnicity prior to 17 century. Even many Serbs researching ethnography will tell you about Urosevic and that you need to be very careful when reading him.

    Ask my Catholic Kelmendi friend from Tamare who first took him into Zagreb Cathedral to pray inside since he was never in. No matter are you Muslim, Christian or Jew, you are most likely under J2-M205 influence.
    There is only one God and all these religions are preaching the same thing. They are all very Middle Eastern religions. Illyrians, Greeks and Romans had completely other religions, which i also love to explore for years now.


    Why would you trust modern anti-Albanian Yugoslavia Serb writer rather then his own family? If his family confirms this like i would deny it, i simply gave my opinion. You say everyone knows that he was laraman, when seems like no one knew that except for Catholic lobby reading Orthodox Yugoslavia Serb books, and reporters. This all scene seems staged up in order to try to represent him as a Christian, very desperate move if you ask me.

    Dont forget that he is like uncle to me and his probably sister or daughter is my great grandmother.
    I even remember my great grandfather from times of Yugoslav Kosovo, he lived 97 or 98. We are oldest and establishing family in Zhegra.
    These people are core of what you can call Albanian nationalism, where all the greatest successes and failures of modern Albanian nationalism occurred.
    Saying things like that copied from Serbian book is not good, this reminds me of my case lol, i can assume that this is insult to his family. I think they would be mad if they would hear these stories.

    Looks what one family member said:

    Bardh Rrahmani 2 years ago (edited) As Idriz Seferi e as ni Sefer nuk osht katolik po nashti jeni ju muqibaba e ju q.ft nana. Para 200 vjetve Haxhi Can Seferi i pari u kon nKaradak nashti edhe nKosov qe ka shku nHaxhillak ku edhe ka vdek te Qabja e ka vorrin. Me Sefer nuk ka kerkun numer 1 jena.
    I told you i will ask personally about this just this is extremely unbelievable to me.
    In these times and in these wars, Serbs were buried with cross while Albanians naked in white sheet just as they were born. That's it.
    They were swarn (jan kan te betum), there was no faking bro.


    This remind me of Christian lobby trying to represent Constantine the Great like he was big Christian emperor or that he accepted Christianity which is simply not true and is more of a wishful thinking.
    Same as story that Saint Paul actually visited Albania and turned them into a Catholic-Christians lol, this only wishful thinking person can believe. I am sorry. But people really believe that and declare on tv.






    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This Laramani thing is new for me, what does it means?


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    For me too, i bet for Idriz Seferi family also.

    Its metaphor like cameleon, two faced, you know Albanian word "lara lara"?

    They are saying that he was fake Muslim only for interest while inside home he practiced Christianity...

    I cant believe all the stupidities pulled out of Serbian books, or pushed by mainstream paid media.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I simply gave my honest opinion. I would never deny it if i thought there is a grain of truth inside. At least without further investigation.

    Like these Mucibaba villagers know anything of that lol please? Someone has pumped their heads with these ideas, someone very intelligent and malicious, besides you heard the old fellow from Mucibaba he never mentioned religion, he is mentioning his own village hero he says Idriz has his own village. You know Albanians common xD

    Its clear that Serbian Orthodoix lobby created this lie in Yugoslavia and modern Catholic lobby is abusing it.
    Urosevic was anti-Albanian sentiment writer and also he was directed and sponsored by Serbia and censored by SANU. Dont forget SANU also sponsored Deretic.
    Urosevic can be trusted only that far where he writes which Albanian families arrived in 18 or 19 century, only because of reason so he can make all other Serbs in order to represent Kosovo like it was 100 % Serbian ethnicity prior to 17 century. Even many Serbs researching ethnography will tell you about Urosevic and that you need to be very careful when reading him.

    Ask my Catholic Kelmendi friend from Tamare who first took him into Zagreb Cathedral to pray inside since he was never in. No matter are you Muslim, Christian or Jew, you are most likely under J2-M205 influence.
    There is only one God and all these religions are preaching the same thing. They are all very Middle Eastern religions. Illyrians, Greeks and Romans had completely other religions, which i also love to explore for years now.


    Why would you trust modern anti-Albanian Yugoslavia Serb writer rather then his own family? If his family confirms this like i would deny it, i simply gave my opinion. You say everyone knows that he was laraman, when seems like no one knew that except for Catholic lobby reading Orthodox Yugoslavia Serb books, and reporters. This all scene seems staged up in order to try to represent him as a Christian, very desperate move if you ask me.

    Dont forget that he is like uncle to me and his probably sister or daughter is my great grandmother.
    I even remember my great grandfather from times of Yugoslav Kosovo, he lived 97 or 98. We are oldest and establishing family in Zhegra.
    These people are core of what you can call Albanian nationalism, where all the greatest successes and failures of modern Albanian nationalism occurred.
    Saying things like that copied from Serbian book is not good, this reminds me of my case lol, i can assume that this is insult to his family. I think they would be mad if they would hear these stories.

    Looks what one family member said:



    I told you i will ask personally about this just this is extremely unbelievable to me.
    In these times and in these wars, Serbs were buried with cross while Albanians naked in white sheet just as they were born. That's it.
    They were swarn (jan kan te betum), there was no faking bro.


    This remind me of Christian lobby trying to represent Constantine the Great like he was big Christian emperor or that he accepted Christianity which is simply not true and is more of a wishful thinking.
    Same as story that Saint Paul actually visited Albania and turned them into a Catholic-Christians lol, this only wishful thinking person can believe. I am sorry. But people really believe that and declare on tv.










    For me too, i bet for Idriz Seferi family also.

    Its metaphor like cameleon, two faced, you know Albanian word "lara lara"?

    They are saying that he was fake Muslim only for interest while inside home he practiced Christianity...

    I cant believe all the stupidities pulled out of Serbian books, or pushed by mainstream paid media.
    The Laramani phenomenon was also common in South of Albania but not by end of 19 century.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The Laramani phenomenon was also common in South of Albania but not by end of 19 century.


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    Yea well its not something i would give too much attention to.

    I think no one has right to speak about these things better then his family, its not like he lived 1000 years ago lol but rather only 90 years ago. I would accept whatever they say. If they confirm this i would ask for apology and admit i was wrong, i dont have problems with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Lol Dema, just leave it dude. You would like to deny it but you can’t because multiple sources confirm what I stated, even Serbian ethnographers who I am sure had nothing to do with the ‘catholic lobby’. Don’t give me childish excuses.


    Leki, i want to come back to this claim, so not only that my family as oldest one in Zhegra can vouch for this not to be true but i also found family member saying they have generations of Haxhi in Karadak. Also he mention Haxhi Can Sefer. So when i googled i come up with this facebook : https://www.facebook.com/Haxhi-CAN-S...0591676037059/

    Looks like guy is somewhat interested in anthropology, you can pm him : )


    Can you please explain what better sources can you have then oldest family in village vouching for them, and their own claims also... It suffices to look at their paternal line names and its clear they were like pure Muslims. Also with Haxhi rituals. Thinking they were Catholics in that time is at least to say rediciolous and wishful thinking.

    Idriz Sefer was late.... he has generations of Muslim in family, and as woman used to carry this "laraman" tradition i think no one would know better then my great grandfather whos wife was from Seferi....

    He was banging her and she was telling him all the secrets in the world... You can imagine.. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    I found statistic for Sandžakian Bosniaks on "Bosniak dna project", sample is 255 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandžak
    they are as all lower Balkan Slavs are. A mixture of Slavic and pre-Slavic populations in the analogies you would expect them. Mainly of local admixture with a minority % of genetic admixture from the incoming populations, and a cultural shift to the dominant group's culture, like in Fyrom, like in Bulgaria, like in Turkish coast, like pretty much everywhere.Why did they convert to Islam? probably cause the region was predominately catholic (like Kosovo Albanians were, like the northern half of Albania) and Ottomans had zero tolerance for Catholics, who were looked upon as easily influenced by the catholic powers populations.
    If you compare the population of Sandzak with nearby(emphasis on the near by) Slavic populations you will see that the bare the same profile which tells us that in this case too it was too a cultural shift and on a broader spectrum the Muslim of Sandzak had the same pattern of profile as other Slavic populations that border non slavic population, aka a genetic profile in between the profile of their nation and the bordering non Slavic population profile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    they are as all lower Balkan Slavs are. A mixture of Slavic and pre-Slavic populations in the analogies you would expect them. Mainly of local admixture with a minority % of genetic admixture from the incoming populations, and a cultural shift to the dominant group's culture, like in Fyrom, like in Bulgaria, like in Turkish coast, like pretty much everywhere.Why did they convert to Islam? probably cause the region was predominately catholic (like Kosovo Albanians were, like the northern half of Albania) and Ottomans had zero tolerance for Catholics, who were looked upon as easily influenced by the catholic powers populations.
    If you compare the population of Sandzak with nearby(emphasis on the near by) Slavic populations you will see that the bare the same profile which tells us that in this case too it was too a cultural shift and on a broader spectrum the Muslim of Sandzak had the same pattern of profile as other Slavic populations that border non slavic population, aka a genetic profile in between the profile of their nation and the bordering non Slavic population profile.
    Yes, except everything that you said is wrong and laughable..

    They dont have even 3 % of R1a, to what results you compared them??? Show me Slavic country or place in the world that has 10x more R1b then R1a as they do. Also 30 % of Albanian Ev13 lol. Show these results to any Slavic moderators and they will laugh at you trying to represent them as Slavs. Btw they were Albanian only 70 years ago, so their origin is not mistery. Many of them still speak Albanian in their homes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes, except everything that you said is wrong and laughable..

    They dont have even 3 % of R1a, to what results you compared them??? Show me Slavic country or place in the world that has 10x more R1b then R1a as they do. Also 30 % of Albanian Ev13 lol. Show these results to any Slavic moderators and they will laugh at you trying to represent them as Slavs. Btw they were Albanian only 70 years ago, so their origin is not mistery. Many of them still speak Albanian in their homes.

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    That is a very general way of looking at it. There are Slavic bottlenecks and founder effects even in native haplogroups. Unless there is a full genome test on them we can't know. Of course, in all likelihood they belong to Albanian clades under those native haplos(considering the history of the region). They also have nearly 13 percent I2a which is CTS10228 cleary a Slavic marker. Of course we don't know if they have Albanian founder effects among the slavic lines either. Without a full genome test its just well educated guesswork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    That is a very general way of looking at it. There are Slavic bottlenecks and founder effects even in native haplogroups. Unless there is a full genome test on them we can't know. Of course, in all likelihood they belong to Albanian clades under those native haplos(considering the history of the region). They also have nearly 13 percent I2a which is CTS10228 cleary a Slavic marker. Of course we don't know if they have Albanian founder effects among the slavic lines either. Without a full genome test its just well educated guesswork.
    This is true, but i know most of their clades, its mostly classic Albanian clades with close matches at Albanians. Also many of classic Albanian tribal haplotypes.

    Its true that their I2a1 is Slavic in origin. So that is their largest Slavic influence.
    Regarding their R1a, if some of it is Dibra cluster which would not surprise me, i would also calculate it into Albanian haplogroup.

    They have minor Slavic influence, way less then any other Slavic country in the world almost at same level as Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This is true, but i know most of their clades, its mostly classic Albanian clades with close matches at Albanians. Also many of classic Albanian tribal haplotypes.

    Its true that their I2a1 is Slavic in origin. So that is their largest Slavic influence.
    Regarding their R1a, if some of it is Dibra cluster which would not surprise me, i would also calculate it into Albanian haplogroup.

    They have minor Slavic influence, way less then any other Slavic country in the world almost at same level as Albanians.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    Assuming Dibra cluster is specific to East Albania, I highly doubt it would show up in Sanxhak. I was of the understanding that most of the Albanian clans that settled there were from Malesia Madhe region.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Assuming Dibra cluster is specific to East Albania, I highly doubt it would show up in Sanxhak. I was of the understanding that most of the Albanian clans that settled there were from Malesia Madhe region.
    Every region in Montenegro was always populated and tribes moved in circles and different directions.

    Same like with the theories that many North Albanian tribes moved to Kosovo. That is true, but a bit earlier many Kosovo tribes moved to North and South Albania.

    So who moved where depends on the period you ask. Everyone moved at a point in time and there's no area entirely populated (or even mostly) by people from another area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Every region in Montenegro was always populated and tribes moved in circles and different directions.

    Same like with the theories that many North Albanian tribes moved to Kosovo. That is true, but a bit earlier many Kosovo tribes moved to North and South Albania.

    So who moved where depends on the period you ask. Everyone moved at a point in time and there's no area entirely populated (or even mostly) by people from another area.
    Thats true. I suppose if it does show up it would have to be a early split like others in the cluster. Time will tell.

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