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Thread: Y DNA of Muslims/Bosniaks from Sandžak

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    Y DNA of Muslims/Bosniaks from Sandžak

    I found statistic for Sandžakian Bosniaks on "Bosniak dna project", sample is 255 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandžak

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    That proportion of R1a is very low for a Slavic population. Except for the decent amount of I2a1, I would venture that the haplogroup profile was much more consistent with, dare I say, Albanians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    That proportion of R1a is very low for a Slavic population. Except for the decent amount of I2a1, I would venture that the haplogroup profile was much more consistent with, dare I say, Albanians?
    They are predominantly of Albanian origin. Catholic Albanians (Malesors) from northern Albania migrated to Sandžak in 18th century and converted on Islam when they arrived because Ottomans gave then land and privilegies for conversion. They lost their language during 19th and first half of 20th century, they adopted Serbian language and today speak Zeta dialect of Serbian language. Other Sandžakian Muslims which are not of Albanian origin came in 18th century from Montenegro, they were Serbs/Serbian speakers and Orthodox before islamization. Some of them originated from Anatolian settlers, the smallest part.
    Sandžakian Muslims are bosniakized ih recent time.
    Ghegs Albanias including Malesors have very low R1a (2/3 of Sandžakians originated from Malesors), and Monrengrins or Serbs from Montenegro have lower R1a than other Serbs, because of that Sandžakians have so low R1a.
    100% of Sandžakian R1b is clade BY611. This clade is typical for Albanians.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    They are predominantly of Albanian origin. Catholic Albanians (Malesors) from northern Albania migrated to Sandžak in 18th century and converted on Islam when they arrived because Ottomans gave then land and privilegies for conversion. They lost their language during 19th and first half of 20th century, they adopted Serbian language and today speak Zeta dialect of Serbian language. Other Sandžakian Muslims which are not of Albanian origin came in 18th century from Montenegro, they were Serbs/Serbian speakers and Orthodox before islamization. Some of them originated from Anatolian settlers, the smallest part.
    Sandžakian Muslims are bosniakized ih recent time.
    Ghegs Albanias including Malesors have very low R1a (2/3 of Sandžakians originated from Malesors), and Monrengrins or Serbs from Montenegro have lower R1a than other Serbs, because of that Sandžakians have so low R1a.
    100% of Sandžakian R1b is clade BY611. This clade is typical for Albanians.
    R1b BY611 runs strong in Malsia


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    Its clear that they are mostly serbicized Albanians. I have a question tho, are these all Sanxhak living persons? I heard they are throwing Bosnjaks from Bosnia and Serbs inside?

    Zukorliq guy who is their project leader is my autosomal relative, and since his mother is not Albanian its clear this connection is by fathers side.

    Also he has ultra Albanian haplogroup R1b>BY611>Y33200



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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    they adopted Serbian language and today speak Zeta dialect of Serbian language


    They adopted Serbian language but somehow, most likely thru schools and community, their language is in fact more Bosnjak sounding.

    They have very Bosnjak Muslim dialect which is different from Serbian one. Bosnjak sleng is more sophisticated while Serbian one sounds more rural.


    Actually to me both Bosnjak and Serbian dialects and slengs sound more rural in compare to Croatian official one.

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    @ Dema

    Sandžakians speak Zeta-Raška dialect of Serbian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta-Raška_dialect
    This dialect came from central and eastern Montenegro.
    Malesors when they settled to Sandžak by time adopted language of islamized settlers from Montenegrin Brda who where Orthodox before islamization and came to Sandžak little before Malesors. Montenegrin Brđani took position of power in Ottoman system in Sandžak (agas, pashas, beys) and Malesors started to learn their language. Malesor majority adopted language of Brđani minority elite. This proces was most expressed in 19th century. Islamized Malesors of Sandžak entered in 20th century as bilingual. After WW2 they almost totally forgot Albanian language. Today only few older people in Sandžak still know Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its clear that they are mostly serbicized Albanians. I have a question tho, are these all Sanxhak living persons? I heard they are throwing Bosnjaks from Bosnia and Serbs inside?

    Zukorliq guy who is their project leader is my autosomal relative, and since his mother is not Albanian its clear this connection is by fathers side.

    Also he has ultra Albanian haplogroup R1b>BY611>Y33200



    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
    This statistic is refers only on Sandžakian Bosniaks, from both Serbian and Montenegrin part of Sandžak.
    On "Bosniak dna project" there is also statistics fom Bosniaks from Vrhbosna, Herzegovina, Central Bosnia, Podrinje and East Bosnia, Usora and Soli, Bosnian Posavina and Bosnian Krajina. Only for Sandžakians statistic is representative due to solid sample, for other regions samples are small; Vrhbosna 18, Herzegovina 31, Central Bosnia 23, Podrinje and East Bosnia 29, Usora and Soli 31, Bosnian Posavina 5, Bosnian Krajina 73.

    Sandžakians are serbified only linguistically. Politically they are bosniakized.

    I know for Zukorlić's y dna. He is laughable when he glorified Bosniak history and speak stories about king Tvrtko, Bogomils, queen Katarina Kosača...
    Zukorlić admited that most of Sandžakians originated from Kuči and Kelmendi. He call Kelmendis Arnaut-Illyrian tribe, and Kuči Bosniak-Illyrian tribe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ Dema

    Sandžakians speak Zeta-Raška dialect of Serbian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta-Raška_dialect
    This dialect came from central and eastern Montenegro.
    Malesors when they settled to Sandžak by time adopted language of islamized settlers from Montenegrin Brda who where Orthodox before islamization and came to Sandžak little before Malesors. Montenegrin Brđani took position of power in Ottoman system in Sandžak (agas, pashas, beys) and Malesors started to learn their language. Malesor majority adopted language of Brđani minority elite. This proces was most expressed in 19th century. Islamized Malesors of Sandžak entered in 20th century as bilingual. After WW2 they almost totally forgot Albanian language. Today only few older people in Sandžak still know Albanian.
    Vast majority of assimilation happened in the last 50 years, especially during the communism period. Even Novi Pazar during WW2 was predominantly Albanian linguistically, let alone rural regions like Peshter. Where most people didn’t even speak a word of Serbian.
    Last edited by Leka; 04-05-19 at 06:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Vast majority of the assimilation happened in the last 50 years, especially during the communism period. Even Novi Pazar during WW2 was predominantly Albanian linguistically, let alone rural regions like Peshter. Where most people didn’t even speak a word of Serbian.

    I agree with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    This statistic is refers only on Sandžakian Bosniaks, from both Serbian and Montenegrin part of Sandžak.
    On "Bosniak dna project" there is also statistics fom Bosniaks from Vrhbosna, Herzegovina, Central Bosnia, Podrinje and East Bosnia, Usora and Soli, Bosnian Posavina and Bosnian Krajina. Only for Sandžakians statistic is representative due to solid sample, for other regions samples are small; Vrhbosna 18, Herzegovina 31, Central Bosnia 23, Podrinje and East Bosnia 29, Usora and Soli 31, Bosnian Posavina 5, Bosnian Krajina 73.

    Yes i see, well, their genetics is typical for Albanian group. They have a bit higher I2a1 but nothing out of ordinary.

    We all know by now that their genetics is contrast to real Bosnjak one. I see that Serbs are much more interested to claim them, then Bosnjaks are, who dont seem interested at all.

    Serbs now even say they are Muslim Serbs!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    They are predominantly of Albanian origin. Catholic Albanians (Malesors) from northern Albania migrated to Sandžak in 18th century and converted on Islam when they arrived because Ottomans gave then land and privilegies for conversion. They lost their language during 19th and first half of 20th century, they adopted Serbian language and today speak Zeta dialect of Serbian language. Other Sandžakian Muslims which are not of Albanian origin came in 18th century from Montenegro, they were Serbs/Serbian speakers and Orthodox before islamization. Some of them originated from Anatolian settlers, the smallest part.
    Sandžakian Muslims are bosniakized ih recent time.
    Ghegs Albanias including Malesors have very low R1a (2/3 of Sandžakians originated from Malesors), and Monrengrins or Serbs from Montenegro have lower R1a than other Serbs, because of that Sandžakians have so low R1a.
    100% of Sandžakian R1b is clade BY611. This clade is typical for Albanians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    @ Dema

    Sandžakians speak Zeta-Raška dialect of Serbian language https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeta-Raška_dialect
    This dialect came from central and eastern Montenegro.
    Malesors when they settled to Sandžak by time adopted language of islamized settlers from Montenegrin Brda who where Orthodox before islamization and came to Sandžak little before Malesors. Montenegrin Brđani took position of power in Ottoman system in Sandžak (agas, pashas, beys) and Malesors started to learn their language. Malesor majority adopted language of Brđani minority elite. This proces was most expressed in 19th century. Islamized Malesors of Sandžak entered in 20th century as bilingual. After WW2 they almost totally forgot Albanian language. Today only few older people in Sandžak still know Albanian.
    There are some inaccuracies in these two posts of yours.
    First is true that the inhabitants of Sandjak are predominantly of Albanian origin.
    Only part of them are Catholics from North Albania converted in Islam. The rest are Albanians native in that territory. In year 1700 Ottomans exiled an important number of people from Kelmendi in Pester but the majority of them returned in Kelmendi fighting in their way of returning against the Turks. Even the women partecipated side by side with their men in these battles, something very common among Albanian highlanders in North and South but the women of Kelmendi are famous for their participation alongside their men in their battles. A small group of Kelmendi people could not escape and they were forcefully imposed on Islamization. So, it is not accurate when you say that they arrived there for land an privileges from Ottomans.
    It is also not accurate when you say that they lost their language during the XIX century. They lost their language during the communist regime in only two generations. One of the tactics used by the Serbs against the Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia was their Islamization, something similar we saw in Greece against the Albanian Chams, who were forbidden to learn the Albanian language and were obliged to learn Arabic, the techniques are the same. In the former Yugoslavia, during the communist regime, the Serbs decided to change tactics and they thought to cut the branches of the tree first. In the impossibility of attacking directly Kosova, because there is a massive and well-composed Albanian population in Kosova, they have intensified their efforts in Sandjak and in what is today North Macedonia. They also used imams and other Muslim religious authorities in this war(they also brought imams from Bosnia and several Arab countries, friends of the ex-Yugoslavia and from ex-Soviet Union, for this purpose). It is a well-known fact that the elite of the Albanian Muslim clergy were spies of the UDB, Yugoslav secret service, there was also a public self-denunciation by the ex-head of this Albanian muslim community in North Macedonia Sulejman Rexhepi, himself a spy of UDB. The Serbs also used the Bosniaks in this mission, their loyal allies, against the Albanians. The result was the Islamization and Slavicization of the Albanians of Sandjak, and the migration during the 50s of the last century of a large part of the Albanians from the today North Macedonia in Turkey, they made impossible the life in their native land to these Albanians and here arrived the imams (some of them) who suggested to the Albanians the option of migration to Turkey as the only alternative. There was also a verbal agreement between Tito and the ambassador of Turkey in the former Yugoslavia for this translocation of Albanians in Turkey. The plan(an old plan) of the Serbs was to empty the former Yugoslavia from the Albanians and in the case of Sandjak, to turn them into Bosniaks. This is the truth. The last 50 years of the 20th century, culminating with the War in Kosova, are a testimony of my words.
    The new generations of the Sandjaks, aware of their Albanian origins, are angry with their parents for this transformation into Bosnians and want to return to their roots. Let's see what the future holds.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    There are some inaccuracies in these two posts of yours.
    First is true that the inhabitants of Sandjak are predominantly of Albanian origin.
    Only part of them are Catholics from North Albania converted in Islam. The rest are Albanians native in that territory. In year 1700 Ottomans exiled an important number of people from Kelmendi in Pester but the majority of them returned in Kelmendi fighting in their way of returning against the Turks. Even the women partecipated side by side with their men in these battles, something very common among Albanian highlanders in North and South but the women of Kelmendi are famous for their participation alongside their men in their battles. A small group of Kelmendi people could not escape and they were forcefully imposed on Islamization. So, it is not accurate when you say that they arrived there for land an privileges from Ottomans.
    It is also not accurate when you say that they lost their language during the XIX century. They lost their language during the communist regime in only two generations. One of the tactics used by the Serbs against the Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia was their Islamization, something similar we saw in Greece against the Albanian Chams, who were forbidden to learn the Albanian language and were obliged to learn Arabic, the techniques are the same. In the former Yugoslavia, during the communist regime, the Serbs decided to change tactics and they thought to cut the branches of the tree first. In the impossibility of attacking directly Kosova, because there is a massive and well-composed Albanian population in Kosova, they have intensified their efforts in Sandjak and in what is today North Macedonia. They also used imams and other Muslim religious authorities in this war(they also brought imams from Bosnia and several Arab countries, friends of the ex-Yugoslavia and from ex-Soviet Union, for this purpose). It is a well-known fact that the elite of the Albanian Muslim clergy were spies of the UDB, Yugoslav secret service, there was also a public self-denunciation by the ex-head of this Albanian muslim community in North Macedonia Sulejman Rexhepi, himself a spy of UDB. The Serbs also used the Bosniaks in this mission, their loyal allies, against the Albanians. The result was the Islamization and Slavicization of the Albanians of Sandjak, and the migration during the 50s of the last century of a large part of the Albanians from the today North Macedonia in Turkey, they made impossible the life in their native land to these Albanians and here arrived the imams (some of them) who suggested to the Albanians the option of migration to Turkey as the only alternative. There was also a verbal agreement between Tito and the ambassador of Turkey in the former Yugoslavia for this translocation of Albanians in Turkey. The plan(an old plan) of the Serbs was to empty the former Yugoslavia from the Albanians and in the case of Sandjak, to turn them into Bosniaks. This is the truth. The last 50 years of the 20th century, culminating with the War in Kosova, are a testimony of my words.
    The new generations of the Sandjaks, aware of their Albanian origins, are angry with their parents for this transformation into Bosnians and want to return to their roots. Let's see what the future holds.
    Why are you lying? Serbs expelled and killed Albanian imams and destroyed mosques.

    Albanian tribes flurished in Ottoman Empire and they were very proud to be Muslims and citizens of Ottoman Empire.
    Since expansion, they are actually known as Albanian Muslim warlike tribes. They spoken only Albanian language, wear traditional Albanian cloth and they were proud Muslim Ottoman Empire citizens.

    League of Prizren that was about to unite Albanian Vilayets were made out of 44 Ottoman Beys.
    Axis powers later created Greater Albania and they were allies with Muslim Albanians.
    Sanxhak lost language after the fall of Greater Albania and communist and "Anti-Fascist" also what i call Gypsy-alliance intrusion into Albanian lands.



    ------


    Ti kurre as nuke ke dal jasht nga shtepia dhe kurre kemba yte nuke te ka shkel as ne Kosove, e mos te flasim per Serbi Jugore, Sanxhak, e tjera vende. Kallxona atje posht per Greqi qe ju kan shti ne veturrejtje qe vet je Musliman edhe e perdor fjalorin e Grekve e Serbve se zguxon me ju ba zo. Zguxon as me pranu se je Musliman se Greku ti qin robet atje posht. Por nuke jemi krejt qe ju bimi Grekve dhe Serbve edhe Bulgarve nen gujzi sikur ti. Ri rahat posht se kur vimi nesh Muslimanet e Shqiptaret e vertete do ti shkelmi deri te Janine e perte. Nuke eshte cudi se Sanxhaklit zdojne te kene asgje me neve kur i shofin njerz te kompleksuar edhe te ulet sikur ti. Ma mire bahen Bosnjak apo Serb se me pas pune me ciftin tende.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    League of Prizren
    Military resistance

    Failing to win their claims on a diplomatic level, Albanians embarked on the route of military conflict with their Balkan neighbours.[57][7]
    The Prizren League had 30,000 armed members under its control, who launched a revolution against the Ottoman Empire after the debacle at the Congress of Berlin and the official dissolvement of the League ordered by the Ottomans who feared the League would seek total independence from the empire.[58] The first military operation of the league was the attack against Mehmed Ali Pasha, the Ottoman marshal who would oversee the transfer of Plav-Gucia area to Montenegro.[37][59] On 4 December 1879 members of the league participated in the Battle of Novšiće and defeated Montenegrin forces who tried to take control over Plav and Gusinje.[60][61][62] After the breakout of open war the League took over control from the Ottomans in the Kosovo towns of Vučitrn, Peć, Kosovska Mitrovica, Prizren, and Gjakova.[63] Guided by the autonomous movement, the League rejected Ottoman authority and sought complete secession from the Porte. The Ottoman Empire sought to suppress the League and they dispatched an army led by Ottoman commander Dervish Pasha, that by April 1881 had captured Prizren and crushed the resistance at Ulcinj.[64][65] The leaders of the league and their families were either killed or arrested and deported.[66][67]

    In August 1878, the Congress of Berlin ordered a commission to trace a border between the Ottoman Empire and Montenegro.[68] The congress also directed Greece and the Ottoman Empire to negotiate a solution to their border dispute.[69][70] The Albanians' successful resistance to the treaty forced the Great Powers to return Gusinje and Plav to the Ottoman Empire and grant Montenegro the mostly Albanian-populated coastal town of Ulcinj.[60][71] There the Albanians refused to surrender. Finally, the Great Powers blockaded Ulcinj by sea and pressured the Ottoman authorities to bring the Albanians under control.[72][73] Albanian diplomatic and military efforts were successful in wresting control of Epirus, however some lands were still ceded to Greece by 1881.[74][75] The Great Powers decided in 1881 to cede Greece Thessaly and the district of Arta.[76][77]


    " We wholeheartedly wish to live in peace with all our neighbours, Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria... We do not want and do not ask anything of them, but we are all determined to protect that which is ours.
    — Excerpt from the League of Prizren's platform, 1878, [19]


    " Just as we are not and do not want to be Turks, so we shall oppose with all our might anyone who would like to turn us into Slavs or Austrians or Greeks, we want to be Albanians. ”

    — Excerpt from the League of Prizren memorandum to the British delegation at the Berlin Congress, 1878, [27]

    Te kam shkerdhyer ropt e shpise ty, serbit dhe grekut bashke more plehre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    ,,,,
    Nothing you said here is arguing against anything i said but rather confirms it.

    I specifically said they lost language after communist and "anti-fascist" mainly made of Serb, Bulgarian and Montenegrin forces overtaken Albanian lands after WWII.
    Until then they were proud Albanian Muslims, and before that they were Ottoman Empire Albanian Muslims.
    League of Prizren you are mentioning is made in Kosovo Vilayet of Ottoman Empire, so my Vilayet idk why are you still speaking about part of Albanian lands you never set foot in and you know nothing about?
    You are guided by Greek and Serbian internet texts its ridiculous to even listen to your stupidities.

    At the same time in the South Albania was happening same thing:

    Greece[edit]

    Main articles: Chameria and Cham Albanians
    The irredentist claim in Greece are Chameria, parts of Epirus, the historical Vilayet of Janina.[3][need quotation to verify][4][5][need quotation to verify][6][need quotation to verify][7][need quotation to verify]
    The coastal region of Thesprotia in northwestern Greece referred to by Albanians as Çamëria is sometimes included in Greater Albania.[15] According to the 1928 census held by the Greek state, there were around 20,000 Muslim Cams in Thesprotia prefecture. They were forced to seek refuge in Albania at the end of World War II after a large part of them collaborated and committed a number of crimes together with the Nazis during the 1941–1944 period.[97] In the first post-war census (1951), only 123 Muslim Çams were left in the area. Descendants of the exiled Muslim Chams (they claim that they are now up to 170,000 now living in Albania) claim that up to 35,000 Muslim Çams were living in southern Epirus before World War II. Many of them are currently trying to pursue legal ways to claim compensation for the properties seized by Greece. For Greece the issue "does not exist".[98]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Albania#Greece


    Why are you not typing about this???

    Ishte me rendesi me ni pergjigjijen e krijusit te keti threadi se ishte pozita interesante, por meqe e shpetove Serbin me nderhyrje edhe i ktheve Sanxhaklit kunder neve tash qiju ne bethe e shkruaj pradha sa dush deri nester se ski kurrefare vlere.




    Laberia can you explain to me how one of my heroes from Kelmendi tribe manages to expand to Kosovo and his name is Aziz? Mashallah its our Muslim Kelmendi tribal!

    Listen to this song and try to explain this to me?

    Last edited by Dema; 04-05-19 at 22:55.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    One of the tactics used by the Serbs against the Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia was their Islamization,
    Rofl, if anything was build it was build Orthodox churches, while all Albanian Imams were killed and exiled and mosques were destroyed.
    Just as mosques were destroyed in Greece and Serbia and Montenegro and Bulgaria also. I believe that Athenes dont have one single mosque left?




    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    something similar we saw in Greece against the Albanian Chams, who were forbidden to learn the Albanian language and were obliged to learn Arabic, the techniques are the same. In the former Yugoslavia, during the communist regime, the Serbs decided to change tactics and they thought to cut the branches of the tree first. In the impossibility of attacking directly Kosova, because there is a massive and well-composed Albanian population in Kosova, they have intensified their efforts in Sandjak and in what is today North Macedonia. They also used imams and other Muslim religious authorities in this war(they also brought imams from Bosnia and several Arab countries, friends of the ex-Yugoslavia and from ex-Soviet Union, for this purpose). It is a well-known fact that the elite of the Albanian Muslim clergy were spies of the UDB, Yugoslav secret service, there was also a public self-denunciation by the ex-head of this Albanian muslim community in North Macedonia Sulejman Rexhepi, himself a spy of UDB.
    Why are you lying Laberia, its redicilous to see your signature "Republic of Chameria" when look what happened to Chams:

    Greece[edit]

    Main articles: Chameria and Cham Albanians
    The irredentist claim in Greece are Chameria, parts of Epirus, the historical Vilayet of Janina.[3][need quotation to verify][4][5][need quotation to verify][6][need quotation to verify][7][need quotation to verify]
    The coastal region of Thesprotia in northwestern Greece referred to by Albanians as Çamëria is sometimes included in Greater Albania.[15] According to the 1928 census held by the Greek state, there were around 20,000 Muslim Cams in Thesprotia prefecture. They were forced to seek refuge in Albania at the end of World War II after a large part of them collaborated and committed a number of crimes together with the Nazis during the 1941–1944 period.[97] In the first post-war census (1951), only 123 Muslim Çams were left in the area. Descendants of the exiled Muslim Chams (they claim that they are now up to 170,000 now living in Albania) claim that up to 35,000 Muslim Çams were living in southern Epirus before World War II. Many of them are currently trying to pursue legal ways to claim compensation for the properties seized by Greece. For Greece the issue "does not exist".[98]

    Just as Greeks are pretending this never happens Laberia does the same protecting his Greek masters!!!!!

    You are Muslim Laberia, you were exiled by Orthodox Greeks, your forefathers were treated worse then animals. All your mosques were destroyed and all you Albanian imams were killed or exiled.
    They raped and killed you and exiled you back in Albania, and you dont dare to even admit that you are Muslim anymore. You are self-hating remain of whats left of once proud Janina Albaniam Muslim Vilayet killed and exiled into Albania so you dont even dare anymore to admit who you are but they even made you talk against your forefathers. You are typical weakling and you exactly know what are you enabled to speak and how far can you go. To be more precise that far how much your Greek and Serb masters allow you.

    Read about Greek and Serbian/Montenegrin/Bulgarian crimes about Muslim Albanians after fall of Great Albania that was ally to Axis Powers.

    You are typical Gabel, you know that right? You know that Communists with Enver Hoxha used to sell Albanian woman to their allies in China and Russia ? In return for woman they were receiving bicycles without seats from China??




    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    The Serbs also used the Bosniaks in this mission, their loyal allies, against the Albanians. The result was the Islamization and Slavicization of the Albanians of Sandjak

    Why are you lying Laberia when Islam is last thing that is separating Sanxhak population from Serbs. If they were Orthodox they would be completely serbicized until now and you would never be even able to tell the difference.





    Laberia fighted and argued entire forum when over 50 people telling him for 3 days that I2a1 is Slavic in origin but he was fighting everyone because there is more I2a1 in Tosk then in Ghegs.

    Also when offered free DNA test Laberia refused because he is extremely insecure.




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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    The Serbs also used the Bosniaks in this mission, their loyal allies, against the Albanians. The result was the Islamization and Slavicization of the Albanians of Sandjak
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    They also used imams and other Muslim religious authorities in this war(they also brought imams from Bosnia and several Arab countries, friends of the ex-Yugoslavia and from ex-Soviet Union, for this purpose). It is a well-known fact that the elite of the Albanian Muslim clergy were spies of the UDB, Yugoslav secret service, there was also a public self-denunciation by the ex-head of this Albanian muslim community in North Macedonia Sulejman Rexhepi, himself a spy of UDB. The Serbs also used the Bosniaks in this mission, their loyal allies, against the Albanians. The result was the Islamization and Slavicization of the Albanians of Sandjak, and the migration during the 50s of the last century of a large part of the Albanians from the today North Macedonia in Turkey, they made impossible the life in their native land to these Albanians and here arrived the imams (some of them) who suggested to the Albanians the option of migration to Turkey as the only alternative.

    This is what typical Serb or Greek would say.

    If Muslim Albanians would lose their Albanian identity because of Islam then Kosovar Albanians would not be purest Albanians DNA wise, also known as most nationalistic Albanians from all Albanian lands.
    Kosovars are over 95 % Muslim and their Albanian identity was never questionable but rather as i said we are known for nationalism and ethnic pride. Probably more then any other group within Albanian lands.




    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    The new generations of the Sandjaks, aware of their Albanian origins, are angry with their parents for this transformation into Bosnians and want to return to their roots. Let's see what the future holds
    Teach us more Laberia that does not speak Bosnjak language neither was never in Sanxhak neither Kosovo but learns history from Serbian and Greek internet websites and Albanian communist party.

    Why are you ignoring Greek Massacre and exile of Muslim Albanian Chams but you are pushing your ugly nose into things that are far away from you and you know nothing about?

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    League of Prizren
    Military resistance


    " We wholeheartedly wish to live in peace with all our neighbours, Serbia, Montenegro, Greece and Bulgaria... We do not want and do not ask anything of them, but we are all determined to protect that which is ou
    rs.
    — Excerpt from the League of Prizren's platform, 1878, [19]


    " Just as we are not and do not want to be Turks, so we shall oppose with all our might anyone who would like to turn us into Slavs or Austrians or Greeks, we want to be Albanians. ”
    , [27]

    Laberia this is true, but you posted only two cherry picked phrases from the link and map i first posted. Lets post from beginning and not cherry pick.
    These phrazes say that they want to be Albanians and thay want to unite their Albanian territories but was it ever questionable that they were Muslims? Especially Ottoman Albanian Muslims, 44 Ottoman Albanian Beys. You know that right?

    League of Prizren

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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    The four Ottoman vilayets clearly divided (The Vilayet of İşkodra, Yannina, Monastir and Kosovo as proposed by the League of Prizren for full autonomy).
    Formation 10 June 1878
    Founder 44 Albanian beys
    Extinction April 1881
    The League of Prizren (Albanian: Besëlidhja e Prizrenit), officially the League for the Defense of the Rights of the Albanian Nation (Albanian: Lidhja për mbrojtjen e të drejtave te kombit Shqiptar), was an Albanianpolitical organization officially founded on June 10, 1878 in the old town of Prizren, in the Kosova Vilayet of the Ottoman Empire.
    The treaties of San Stefano and Berlin, both assigned areas that were also inhabited by Albanians to other states. The inability of the Porte to protect the interests of a region that was 70 percent Muslim and largely loyal forced the Albanian leaders not only to organize their defense, but also to consider creation of an autonomous administration, like those Serbia and the other Danubian Principalities had enjoyed before their independence.[1]
    The league was established at the meeting of 47 Ottoman beys. An initial position of the league was presented in the document known as Kararname. With this document Albanian leaders emphasized their intention to preserve and maintain the territorial integrity of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans by supporting the porte, and "to struggle in arms to defend the wholeness of the territories of Albania". Although it said nothing about the reforms, schools, autonomy or about the union of the Albanian population within one vilayet, under influence of Abdyl Frashëri, this initial position has changed radically and resulted in demands of autonomy of Albanians and open war against the Ottoman Empire.




    Background[edit]

    The 1877–78 Russo-Turkish War dealt a decisive blow to Ottoman power in the Balkan Peninsula, leaving the empire with only a precarious hold on Albania and eastern Balkans. The Albanians' fear that the lands they inhabited would be partitioned among Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece fueled the rise of resistance.[2][3] The first postwar treaty, the abortive Treaty of San Stefano signed on 3 March 1878, assigned areas claimed by the League of Prizren to Serbia, Montenegro, and Bulgaria.[3] Austria-Hungary and the United Kingdom blocked the arrangement because it awarded Russia a predominant position in the Balkans and thereby upset the European balance of power.[4][5] A peace conference to settle the dispute was held later in the year in Berlin.[6][7]



    A ethnographic map of the Balkan peninsula of 1861.


    The overall situation influenced Albanians to organize themselves as the Local Counsels for National Salvation with aim to protect the Albanian populated lands.[8][9] By the end of 1877 the issue of defending territorial integrity became difficult. On 13 December 1877, Serbs declared war on Ottoman Empire, as did Montenegro.[10] Both were supported by the Russian Army and spread their attacks on the northern parts of Albania. Albanians were unable to defend several regions and cities in the northeast and northwest of Albania.[11] Upon occupation of these lands, the Ottoman administrators (of mainly Albanian origin) fled the freed territories and/or were expelled. During the Russo-Turkish war, the incoming Serb army expelled most of the Muslim Albanian population from the Toplica and Niš regions into Kosovo triggering the emergence of what became the League of Prizren (1878–1881) as a response to the Great Eastern Crisis.[12][13][14]
    Influenced by these events the Local Councils for National Salvation merged into a single coordination body. Albanians, on December 12, 1877 established in Istanbul the Central Committee for the Defense of Rights of the Albanian Nation.[15][16][9] The Treaty of San Stefano triggered profound anxiety among the Albanians and Bosniaks, and it spurred their leaders to organize a defense of the lands they inhabited.[6][17] In the spring of 1877, influential Albanians in Constantinople—including Abdyl Frashëri, the Albanian national movement's leading figure during its early years—organized a committee to direct the Albanians' resistance.[16] In May the group called for a general meeting of representatives from all the areas where Albanian communities existed during that time.[16][18] The Committee's members were Ali Ibra, Zija Prishtina, Sami Frashëri, Jani Vreto, Pashko Vasa, Baca Kurti Gjokaj and Abdyl Frashëri.














    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Te kam shkerdhyer ropt e shpise ty, serbit dhe grekut bashke more plehre.


    HaHa, mos e ba Zot me ty mu perzi se tash ja nisi ti postoj ato filmat e 1997 ku krejt rebelat keni dal jasht edhe sicili i dyti shifet se eshte Ashkali apo Gabel, tybestikvar me ty mu perzi.

    Mos rrej se zguxon Grekve me ju ba zo e Serb as ske pa kurre me sy. More laper i internetit.
    Last edited by Dema; 05-05-19 at 01:32.

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    Battle for Novi Pazar

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    Battle for Novi Pazar
    Part of World War II in Yugoslavia
    Date November — December 1941
    Location Novi Pazar, Yugoslavia (modern-day Serbia)
    Result Axis victory
    Belligerents
    Nazi Germany Chetniks
    Communist Party of Yugoslavia
    Commanders and leaders



    • Sveta Trifunović
    Units involved
    • Studenica—Deževo detachment



    • Kopaonik detachment (two companies)
    Strength
    3,150 Unknown
    Casualties and losses
    144 Albanians and 136 Muslims 287 Serbs
    Civilian victims of terror: 115 Serbs and 61 Muslims



    The Battle for Novi Pazar was a battle fought between November and December 1941 during World War II, between the Chetniks and Muslim-Albanian forces under Axis command in the city of Novi Pazar, Sandžak in the German occupied Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Despite launching three assaults, the Chetniks failed to capture Novi Pazar.
    During World War II, the territory of Sandžak was the subject of territorial disputes between Germany, Italy, as well as the local Muslim and Albanian populations. Due to the multiple insurgent, ethnic and religious groups in the region, persecution and genocide of Serbs, Jews and Romani peoplecharacterised the conflict in Yugoslavia.





    Early November attack on Novi Pazar[edit]

    According to the agreed plan, two companies of the Kopaonik Partisan detachment under command of Sveta Trifunović took control over the road between Novi Pazar and Kosovska Mitrovica to prevent armed Albanian forces to use this road to reach the town. One Chetnik detachment joined them and burned some Muslim houses. Tomorrow, Muslim forces from Novi Pazar attacked Serb houses in Trnava and began to burn them. Partisans attacked them and forced them to retreat to Novi Pazar. Because of the split between Chetniks and Partisans Chetniks left their positions at joint Chetnik—Partisan front at Kraljevo in the night between 3 and 4 November. This had direct consequence to Chetnik-Partisan cooperation at Novi Pazar where Partisan forces left their positions to fill the gap at Kraljevo.[10]
    Chetniks attacked the town on 4 November at 4 a.m. They managed to advance toward the town until 7 a.m. when the rear flanks of one Chetnik unit were attacked by Muslim forces under command of Biko Drešović, Džemail Koničanin and Mullah Jakup. This caused dismay of this Chetnik unit which retreated from already captured positions. Muslim forces regrouped and pushed back the Chetnik forces who advanced on another part of front (Petrova Crkva — Đurđevi Stupovi — Parničko brdo — Vidovo). The Chetnik casualties were 83 killed and 48 wounded, while defending forces had 60 killed and 23 wounded.[11]
    The defenders' success in the battle was celebrated in Novi Pazar, people waved Albanian flags and shouted glorifying Greater Albania. Armed bands killed dozens of Serbs in Novi Pazar in only a couple of hours. Drešović's men carried cut off heads stuck on the bayonets of their rifles and threw them on the garbage. To prevent further killings Mulla Jakub proposed to imprison all Serbs older than 18 years. Ahmetović accepted this proposal with intention to use imprisoned Serbs as hostages in the future negotiations with Chetniks.[12]



    Force

    Germans followed their strategy to protect only points of vital importance during the uprising in Serbia. To protect the lead mine they moved their forces from Novi Pazar to Kosovska Mitrovica on 4 October. Germans armed units of Albanian Gendarmerie was left to protect the town.[8] In period between 5 October and 7 December 1941 (when German forces returned to Novi Pazar) all Serbs in the town were forbidden to leave the town according to the order of Hadžiahmetović, in order to prevent them to join Chetniks or to inform them about the forces in the town.
    On 7 October the first group of Albanian forces commanded by Shaban Polluzha came to Novi Pazar. Hadžiahmetović emphasized that this group turned Serb populated Ibarski Kolašin into dust and ash. In October 1941 the total number of Albanian forces that came to Novi Pazar was around 500. Around 100 Muslim forces from Tutin and Sjenica with forces of Biko Drešević also came to defend Novi Pazar
    Late November and early December attacks on Novi Pazar[edit]

    Chetniks attacked Novi Pazar on 21 November 1941. Vojislav Lukačević, one of the closest associates of Draža Mihailović, participated in this attack. During this attack Chetniks burned all Muslim villages from Požega to Vučinići. Chetniks failed to capture Novi Pazar and retreated suffering casualties of 42 killed men, while defenders had 26 killed. Both sides had around 45 wounded. On 5 December the last Chetnik attempt to capture Novi Pazar failed. Based on the false information that communists captured some parts of Novi Pazar, German forces returned to the town on 7 December 1941.[14]
    The epilogue of struggle between Chetniks and Muslim and Albanian forces in the region of Novi Pazar was 447 killed people (287 Serbs, 136 Muslims and 144 Albanians). The victims of terror of the conflicting parties were 115 Serbs and 61 Muslims.





    Greece[edit]

    Main articles: Chameria and Cham Albanians
    The irredentist claim in Greece are Chameria, parts of Epirus, the historical Vilayet of Janina.[3][need quotation to verify][4][5][need quotation to verify][6][need quotation to verify][7][need quotation to verify]
    The coastal region of Thesprotia in northwestern Greece referred to by Albanians as Çamëria is sometimes included in Greater Albania.[15] According to the 1928 census held by the Greek state, there were around 20,000 Muslim Cams in Thesprotia prefecture. They were forced to seek refuge in Albania at the end of World War II after a large part of them collaborated and committed a number of crimes together with the Nazis during the 1941–1944 period.[97] In the first post-war census (1951), only 123 Muslim Çams were left in the area. Descendants of the exiled Muslim Chams (they claim that they are now up to 170,000 now living in Albania) claim that up to 35,000 Muslim Çams were living in southern Epirus before World War II. Many of them are currently trying to pursue legal ways to claim compensation for the properties seized by Greece. For Greece the issue "does not exist".[98]



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    Praising axis war crimes. Classy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Praising axis war crimes. Classy.
    Who praised Axis war crimes? I praised winning side pulling out Albanian flags and shouting Greater Albania. Also defend themselves 3 times from Chetnik assault.
    If you read better Chetniks Partisans and Communists were attacking, Axis were defending with local population.
    This is people we are debating here.

    Under excuse of anti-fascism same crimes as fascist ones were applied.

    Albanian lands were first taken under the excuse of fighting against falling Ottoman Empire when in fact there were no Ottomans but it was conspiracy in order to grab Albanian lands.

    Then after fall of Nazi Germany, history repeated and under excuse of "anti-fascism" and fighting Nazis again large proportion of Albanian lands were grabbed and people were expelled, killed or forced to assimilate.

    In Epirus Chameria there was 20 000 Albanian Muslims before WW2 and after WW2 there was only 100 left.

    Now who is criminal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Who praised Axis war crimes? I praised winning side pulling out Albanian flags and shouting Greater Albania. Also defend themselves 3 times from Chetnik assault.
    If you read better Chetniks Partisans and Communists were attacking, Axis were defending with local population.
    This is people we are debating here.
    Under excuse of anti-fascism same crimes as fascist ones were applied.
    Albanian lands were first taken under the excuse of fighting against falling Ottoman Empire when in fact there were no Ottomans but it was conspiracy in order to grab Albanian lands.
    Then after fall of Nazi Germany, history repeated and under excuse of "anti-fascism" and fighting Nazis again large proportion of Albanian lands were grabbed and people were expelled, killed or forced to assimilate.
    In Epirus Chameria there was 20 000 Albanian Muslims before WW2 and after WW2 there was only 100 left.
    Now who is criminal?
    But you have zero connections with all these people. You are a proud Phoenician gladiator. What the hell have to do someone like you with Aqif Blyta and Shaban Polluzha? They were real Albanian Heroes meanwhile you are an Ottoman leftover. In Albania, Kosova and other Balkan countries there are communities of cigans, gypsies, ashkali, etc, brought here by Ottomans. They identify themselves with the host nation in every country. But you are attacking your host country with your words here.
    You are attacking Albanians as a nation and all the Albanian members here, it's the second thread. I don't know why the moderators still allow you to bark in this forum. How they would have reacted if an marocchino attacked their nation? Because it's exactly this the situation here.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    One of the tactics used by the Serbs against the Albanians in ex-Yugoslavia was their Islamization, something similar we saw in Greece against the Albanian Chams, who were forbidden to learn the Albanian language and were obliged to learn Arabic, the techniques are the same. In the former Yugoslavia, during the communist regime, the Serbs decided to change tactics and they thought to cut the branches of the tree first. In the impossibility of attacking directly Kosova, because there is a massive and well-composed Albanian population in Kosova, they have intensified their efforts in Sandjak and in what is today North Macedonia. They also used imams and other Muslim religious authorities in this war(they also brought imams from Bosnia and several Arab countries, friends of the ex-Yugoslavia and from ex-Soviet Union, for this purpose). It is a well-known fact that the elite of the Albanian Muslim clergy were spies of the UDB, Yugoslav secret service

    Laberia, why are you lying here that Serbs used Islamization tactic when they were always killing Albanian Imams and Muslims and destroying mosques.

    Also why you say that there was similar thing used against Chams, so what do you mean, did Greeks also Islamize Albanians and build them mosques as Serbs did in North? Or they killed and expelled them and destroyed their mosques. Why you lied Laberia and you never mentioned this?:


    Greece[edit]

    Main articles: Chameria and Cham Albanians
    The irredentist claim in Greece are Chameria, parts of Epirus, the historical Vilayet of Janina.[3][need quotation to verify][4][5][need quotation to verify][6][need quotation to verify][7][need quotation to verify]
    The coastal region of Thesprotia in northwestern Greece referred to by Albanians as Çamëria is sometimes included in Greater Albania.[15] According to the 1928 census held by the Greek state, there were around 20,000 Muslim Cams in Thesprotia prefecture. They were forced to seek refuge in Albania at the end of World War II after a large part of them collaborated and committed a number of crimes together with the Nazis during the 1941–1944 period.[97] In the first post-war census (1951), only 123 Muslim Çams were left in the area. Descendants of the exiled Muslim Chams (they claim that they are now up to 170,000 now living in Albania) claim that up to 35,000 Muslim Çams were living in southern Epirus before World War II. Many of them are currently trying to pursue legal ways to claim compensation for the properties seized by Greece. For Greece the issue "does not exist".[98]

    For Laberia this issue "does not exist"


    ????


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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    But you have zero connections with all these people. You are a proud Phoenician gladiator. What the hell have to do someone like you with Aqif Blyta and Shaban Polluzha? They were real Albanian Heroes meanwhile you are an Ottoman leftover.
    Haha i knew already yesterday that you dont have anything to say, you escaped when you were caught in lies and you were just disliking the posts since you didnt dare to type anything. Now you come here but you dont have anything to say but you engage into senseless provocations now, just where you are the best. At provoking, lying and twisting.

    BTW, i have more connection to them then you do. First we are both real Albanians and you are only God knows what. Then we are both from Kosovo Vilayet while you are from Janina Vilayet. Then we are both Muslims just as Sanxhaks are while you are complexed fake Muslim even tho your father, grandfather and his father were real Muslims too xD Even name Shaban Polluzha is Muslim.
    Why would i be Ottoman leftover lol? Thats what Serbs and Greeks used to say for Muslim Albanians. I am Muslim Albanian from Kosovo Vilayet that was later Greater Albania and today Kosovo Republic. Same as Shaban Polluzha, etc.. Idriz Seferi used to chill in our oda because it was among first odas in Anamorava. He was pround Albanian Muslim. Yes i am autochthonous for Mediterranean Sea for 4000 years. We have Phoenician 1700 BCE Sidon ancient DNA. Even this alphabet you are using is based on Phoenician one.

    You waste your time 024 online lying about Albanians and trying to represent them as they are in your wishful imagination which is actually a nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    In Albania, Kosova and other Balkan countries there are communities of cigans, gypsies, ashkali, etc, brought here by Ottomans. They identify themselves with the host nation in every country. But you are attacking your host country with your words here.
    I know there is plenty of Gabels and Ashkali in Albania...
    Maybe you are one of them, since you never gave any info on you and refused to show photo, even take free dna test....
    I am Croatian citizen so i dont know about which host country are you talking about? Kosovo Vilayet xD ?


    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You are attacking Albanians as a nation and all the Albanian members here, it's the second thread. I don't know why the moderators still allow you to bark in this forum. How they would have reacted if an marocchino attacked their nation? Because it's exactly this the situation here.
    lol few unsecure internet kids who are still experimenting in life can barely be called "all Albanian members". please spare me of your drama.

    Each time i see you lying i will correct you with sufficient proves just as i always do. You were lying here that same methods were used in Cham while reality was completely different. They were exiled because of their religion and not supported to accept Islam neither got mosques build but rather mosques destroyed and population expelled.

    I am ignoring you from now on if you dont have anything smart to say. And i know, you dont, as you never do.

  25. #25
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Dema, it’s a well known fact in Kosove that Idriz Seferi was Laraman (Crypto-catholic)

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