Was Cimmerian (Old Persian) an Albanized Iranian language?

I have talked about Cimmerians in some other threads, as I said I am a historian and I don't care what nationalists say, there is absolutely no evidence which shows Persians lived in Iran before the arrival of Cimmerians in the 8th century BC, it is clear who established Parsua kingdom in the northwest of Iran, destroyed Ellipi kingdom and conquered Anshan (Persia), ...
I strongly believe that sound changes didn't happen in languages without any reason, there are some important reasons for these changes, like phonology of native languages, it is possible that for example "d" is changed to "t" in two different languages in two different places but when we talk about a group of different sound changes, especially in different places of articulation, it is difficult to believe there is no relation between them.

Are there any onomastic surveys of the West Iranian core area? Who lived in the northerncentral plateau and Balochistan before the Iranics came?
 
That doesn't prove that Cimmerian is Old Persian, especially when we know that Persian is just one language among many other Southwestern Iranic languages, and that they're clearly related to Northeastern Iranic languages of Central Asia. You're just assuming that the Cimmerians had a linguistic impact, while all the Iranic movements into South-Central Asia and the Iranian Plateau didn't. It's absolutely clear that Persian was not spoken near literate civilizations in Iran before the Early Iron Age (that's all we can say for sure, it may in fact have been spoken in parts of the Iranian Plateau that didn't have close and frequent contacts with the societies who left us written records), but I think you're making a leap of faith by assuming that that necessarily means it was brought by Cimmerians.

Do you believe Persians and Medes lived in Iran before 800 BC? If they lived in the west of Iran then there should be certainly some info about them in Mesopotamian and Elamite sources, and if they lived in the center or east of Iran then there should be some info about them in Avesta or Rigveda, we read about the lands so far west as Rhaga (south of modern Tehran) in Avesta and traces of Indo-Aryan culture can be found so far west as Mittani (modern Syria), it sounds impossible that western Iranian people also lived in this region but without any contact with eastern and western people.

Well, you may believe that, but there are documented evidences of unrelated languages, even belonging to different language families in territories completely apart from each other, having experienced the same phonological trends, and in my opinion that's even more likely to not involve any common origin or mutual influence when the change affected different places of articulation, because then that indicates that those languages, independently or not, began a phonological trend that ended up causing consequences to several different consonants and/or vowels. There is no evidence at all that similar sound changes, triggered by the same geneneral processes, imply a common descent.

For instance, Brazilian Portuguese and Canadian French dialects independently evolved palatalization followed by fricativization of /t/ and /d/ before the vowel /i/, and that in fact also happened in Japanese. That doesn't mean that they had to have been in close contact (and since the change in Canada and Brazil happened much more recently we actually know for a fact that they weren't), it just means that a similar trend in the articulation of sounds ended up leading to similar final effects: /ts/ and /dz/ in Canada, /tsh/ and /dzh/ in Brazil.

About your example, this sound change in Brazilian Portuguese seems to be really under influence of Japanese, according to wikipedia, it has always been standard in Brazil's Japanese community since it is also a feature of Japanese.

The fact is that for example we see *ǵ>dz>dh & *ḱ>ts>th in Albanian and Western Iranian but *ǵ>dz>z & *ḱ>ts>s in Eastern Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages, it doesn't mean that these languages are the same but it is certainly possible that they originated in the same region, I see no reason that we want to focus on some rare exceptions.
 
Ygorcs said:
It's a mistake to believe that all "satem-like" changes are the same and necessarily happened at the same time. If we go by that token, and we didn't knew anything about Old Italic languages, we'd think that Romance languages were a "satemized" (Iranianized, Albanianized?) language family, but in fact we just know that palatalization of vowels, especially before front vowels, is very common, so that change may happen independently in place and time. [k] > [kj] > [ts], [tsh], [th], in Romance languages is pretty "satem-like", but we know that it happened mostly in the last 1500 years, and has nothing to do with similar developments much earlier in other IE branches.


Please mention some examples, in which Romance language [k] has been changed to [th]? It is certainly possible that [k] is changed to [ch] or [x] in different languages or it is changed to [th] or other sounds in just a few words, but when it is said that [k] has been changed to [th] in almost all words in two languages, it is difficult to believe there is no relation between them.
 
Do you believe Persians and Medes lived in Iran before 800 BC? If they lived in the west of Iran then there should be certainly some info about them in Mesopotamian and Elamite sources, and if they lived in the center or east of Iran then there should be some info about them in Avesta or Rigveda, we read about the lands so far west as Rhaga (south of modern Tehran) in Avesta and traces of Indo-Aryan culture can be found so far west as Mittani (modern Syria), it sounds impossible that western Iranian people also lived in this region but without any contact with eastern and western people.



About your example, this sound change in Brazilian Portuguese seems to be really under influence of Japanese, according to wikipedia, it has always been standard in Brazil's Japanese community since it is also a feature of Japanese.

The fact is that for example we see *ǵ>dz>dh & *ḱ>ts>th in Albanian and Western Iranian but *ǵ>dz>z & *ḱ>ts>s in Eastern Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages, it doesn't mean that these languages are the same but it is certainly possible that they originated in the same region, I see no reason that we want to focus on some rare exceptions.

However, the persian and Medes were called "Arya." So it is a problem to directly connect persians to cimmerians. I think a answer to the same origin would be from the aryan's continuous migrations from the Altai, including scythian. The altai people at bronze age is same people as east european at that time.

Unfortunately, the Assyrian eastern campaigns temporarily ceased in the 12th–10th centuries BC due to an internal crisis. Accordingly, the sources lack any information on the ethnic situation in Iran during this period (D’yakonov 1956: 137-138; Dandamaev and Lukonin 1980). Assyria fought campaigns against Media only from 834 to 788 BC. References to a country of Parsua, of a kingdom of Manna in Iranian Azerbaijan, and of a union of ‘the strong Medes’ appear in the 9th century BC. Herodotus (1.101) enumerated six Median tribes, three among them having an Iranian etymology: arizantoi (‘the tribe of Aryas’), stroukhates, paretakīnoi. The latter were localized in the east—in Isfahan and in Central Asia. ‘Arya’ was the self-designation of different Indo-Iranian peoples (Indo-Aryans, Western Iranians-Medes and Persians). Darius I says in the inscription of Naqsh-i-Rustem that he is a “a Persian, a son of a Persian, an Arya, from the family of Aryas”. ‘Arya’ was also how the Eastern Iranians called themselves: it is often met in Scythian names and in Ossetic (Abaev 1949 I: 156).

see the headgear. the left persian one is like scythian's and the right greek one has east scythian hair mode (american indian Mohawk hairstyle). Both swords have seima turbion style.

Greek-Persian_duel.jpg


see also darius's and scythian's helmet:

Darius_detail_on_the_Darius_vase.jpg

e186096cb6ac0b0c768ccabf8fee9284.jpg

right: a drawing by cand.sci.(history) d.v. pozdnyakov (iae sb ras) based on the reconstruction of the felt helmet by e.v. shumakova (iae sb ras). ak-alakha 1 burial mound 1
https://scfh.ru/en/news/the-ukok-fe...-data-on-the-bearers-of-the-pazyryk-culture-/

see bird image [mean sky (= Zeus)] in the scythian helmet and mycenaean burial

i.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&
 
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Are there any onomastic surveys of the West Iranian core area? Who lived in the northerncentral plateau and Balochistan before the Iranics came?

In Sumerian and Akkadian sources, there are two major lands in the east of Elam, it is very possible that the names of Parsi (Persian) and Balochi relate to them, the first one is Marhasi (Parhasi/Barhasi) and another one is Melukhkha (Belukhkha), the second one seems to be the same as Mleccha in Sanskrit with the meaning of "barbarian, foreigner", it is believed that they were a Dravidian people. Marhasi/Parhasi culture seems to be related to Elamite culture, we have some info about their kings and religion, they were certainly not Iranian.
 
However, the persian and Medes were called "Arya." So it is a problem to directly connect persians to cimmerians. I think a answer to the same origin would be from the aryan's continuous migrations from the Altai, including scythian. The altai people at bronze age is same people as east european at that time.



see the headgear. the left persian one is like scythian's and the right greek one has east scythian hair mode (american indian Mohawk hairstyle). Both swords have seima turbion style.

Greek-Persian_duel.jpg


see also darius's and scythian's helmet:

Darius_detail_on_the_Darius_vase.jpg

e186096cb6ac0b0c768ccabf8fee9284.jpg

right: a drawing by cand.sci.(history) d.v. pozdnyakov (iae sb ras) based on the reconstruction of the felt helmet by e.v. shumakova (iae sb ras). ak-alakha 1 burial mound 1
https://scfh.ru/en/news/the-ukok-fe...-data-on-the-bearers-of-the-pazyryk-culture-/

see bird image [mean sky (= Zeus)] in the scythian helmet and mycenaean burial

i.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16669-ZEUS-and-altai-petroglyph&

looks like mycenaean, persian and late chinese bronze (zhou) people was closely related with scythian or its relative stocks who were ironically to be called "barbarian":




figure . burial objects of the western zhou period:
zhou_chariot3_horses.jpg

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Zhou/zhou-religion.html




The Scythian Kurgan Arzhan 2 (Tuva, Siberia), 7th century BC, Credit: Michael Hochmuth, German Archaeological Institute, Berlin.:
scythianhors.jpg

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-scythian-horse-unveiled-lessons-animal.html
 
A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:

uy2_tatarli1.jpg


Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:

M075178-01_Cylinder-of-Chalcedony-found-in-a-Tomb-of-Cimmerian-Bosphorus.jpg


Persepolis:

d0kp_persepolis.jpg


Behistun:

1024px-Behistun_inscription_reliefs.jpg


Persian:

24An_achaemenian_soldier.jpg


Cimmerian (left):

j5eo_tatarli2.jpg
 
About your example, this sound change in Brazilian Portuguese seems to be really under influence of Japanese, according to wikipedia, it has always been standard in Brazil's Japanese community since it is also a feature of Japanese..

That doesn't make sense historically and demographically. The change began in the late 19th century and early 20th century in Rio de Janeiro and spread from there to most parts of Brazil especially after the 1950s. The first Japanese immigrants only arrived in 1908, when that trend had already begun, and they concentrated in São Paulo, which in fact was a latecomer to the fricativization of "ti" and "di" in comparison with Rio de Janeiro and some other parts of Brazil, with many older people of São Paulo not fricativizing those consonants even today. Also, the Japanese diaspora in Brazil represents a mere 0.6% of the population and is heavily concentrated just in São Paulo and Paraná, with very tiny proportions in other states. They weren't that influential, and the change took place in many states that barely have any community of Japanese descent. No, they were independent developments, and linguists know why, because the vowel /i/ often changes then point of articulation of the preceding consonant, especially /t/ and /d/, triggering an eventual palatalization and, consequently, later developments such as fricativization. Similar processes happened in many unrelated languages throughout the time. Sound changes are not unique, they happen for a "physical" reason related to the apparatus of human speech, and that reason may occur multiple times in different languages.
 
A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:

uy2_tatarli1.jpg


Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:

M075178-01_Cylinder-of-Chalcedony-found-in-a-Tomb-of-Cimmerian-Bosphorus.jpg


Persepolis:

d0kp_persepolis.jpg


Behistun:

1024px-Behistun_inscription_reliefs.jpg


Persian:

24An_achaemenian_soldier.jpg


Cimmerian (left):

j5eo_tatarli2.jpg

Are they really identified by archaeologists or Cimmerians or is that just your interpreting these Persian figures as Cimmerians?
 
A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:



Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:

M075178-01_Cylinder-of-Chalcedony-found-in-a-Tomb-of-Cimmerian-Bosphorus.jpg



Persian:

24An_achaemenian_soldier.jpg

Brand new research found that both cimmerian and scythian have R1a- z645. They seems to have same origin. We have already known that they have east asian admixture. Now we have to wait and see persian aDNA.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...etic-Landscape-of-the-Western-Eurasian-Steppe
"We present new whole-genome sequences of 31 ancient Western and Eastern Steppe individuals including Scythians as well as samples pre- and postdating them, allowing us to set the Scythians in a temporal context (in the Western/Ponto-Caspian Steppe). We detect an increase of eastern (Altaian) affinity along with a decrease in Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) ancestry in the Early Iron Age Ponto- Caspian gene pool at the start of the Scythian dominance."
 
Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:

M075178-01_Cylinder-of-Chalcedony-found-in-a-Tomb-of-Cimmerian-Bosphorus.jpg
I don't how to describe, but do you know how many bars of crown king wears?
Basically, altai culture is same as mesomarica culture as you know. They have sunhead and (totem) animal culture, which yamna and afanasievo had also.

see, looks like 12 feather (12 month?)
Aztec-god-Tlaloc.jpg


china bronze (12):
StandingFormJinsha.jpg
 
Are they really identified by archaeologists or Cimmerians or is that just your interpreting these Persian figures as Cimmerians?

Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?
 
Brand new research found that both cimmerian and scythian have R1a- z645. They seems to have same origin. We have already known that they have east asian admixture. Now we have to wait and see persian aDNA.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...etic-Landscape-of-the-Western-Eurasian-Steppe
"We present new whole-genome sequences of 31 ancient Western and Eastern Steppe individuals including Scythians as well as samples pre- and postdating them, allowing us to set the Scythians in a temporal context (in the Western/Ponto-Caspian Steppe). We detect an increase of eastern (Altaian) affinity along with a decrease in Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) ancestry in the Early Iron Age Ponto- Caspian gene pool at the start of the Scythian dominance."

Of course both Cimmerian (Persian) and Scythian cultures have Iranian origin and Iranian is a subbranch of Indo-Iranian, sound changes in Indo-Iranian show influences from Altaic languages, it seems to be very possible that Indo-Iranian culture originated in the north of Central Asia.
 
Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?

You're not making much sense with seemingly rhetorical questions...
 
You're not making much sense with seemingly rhetorical questions...

Those are actually very important questions, I strongly believe Persians (Cimmerians) firstly lived in Turkey, not Iran, we see very Persian names of Hystaspes (Vishtaspa) and Vindaspa among Neo-Hittite kings from the 10th century BC, the first known Persian king with the title of khshatra "shah, king" is actually the Cimmerian king Sandakhshatra who ruled in modern Turkey.

cimmerians.jpg


Map_of_Assyria.png
 
Persians origins came from modern Tajikistan/uzbekistan and went to Persia in 1000BC ...............
The Persians, and their closest relatives were the Medes, and both came from the Saka peoples in the central Asian steppe. The Medes and Persians first entered Iran from the Uzbekistan around 1000 BC. They settled the central Iranian plateau, mixing with the Scythian and Kassite migrants who preceded them, as well as with the Elamitic natives. The Persians moved to present-day Fars around 700 BC. The Medes settled in the northwest and today are called the Kurds.

We don't know who the Kassites were though. Officially, they are a language isolate, but some link them with the Hurrio-Urartians. Alternately, there is some speculation that they were some sort of Indo-Iranians, but this just speculation right now. They seem to have originally come from the Zagros Mountains. Also, most scholars don't link the Kurds with the Medes.
 
Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?

Weren't Bosporan and Pontus Hellenic? Scythians and Cimmerians were definitely in the region though by ~700 BCE.
 
Weren't Bosporan and Pontus Hellenic? Scythians and Cimmerians were definitely in the region though by ~700 BCE.

Which period? Of course traces of Hellenic culture existed in the whole Near East during the Hellenistic period.
Neo-Hittite kings with Persian names show that Cimmerians had influence in this region from the 9th century BC.
 
Which period? Of course traces of Hellenic culture existed in the whole Near East during the Hellenistic period.
Neo-Hittite kings with Persian names show that Cimmerians had influence in this region from the 9th century BC.

It's not traces of Hellenic culture--the Greeks were pretty visible. The Greeks were in Pontus from around 1000 BCE. Yes, the Cimmerians (if they were Iranians even) and also Scythians were in the region, and there was later Iranian influence in the region, and some of the royalty were mixed (like Mithradates, with a clearly Hellenic-Iranic mixed name). The Greeks were in Bosporus by the 700 BCE. Again, there were Iranians and Cimmerians there too. But to downplay the Hellenic presence as "traces" is not right. There are "traces" of both Hellenic (and Iranic peoples) there now...2500 years ago they were not traces.

Pontus might also have had a Georgian and Armenian presence, prior to the Greeks and Iranians, especially if Hayasa (circa 1500 BCE) was an Armenian state.
 
It's not traces of Hellenic culture--the Greeks were pretty visible. The Greeks were in Pontus from around 1000 BCE. Yes, the Cimmerians (if they were Iranians even) and also Scythians were in the region, and there was later Iranian influence in the region, and some of the royalty were mixed (like Mithradates, with a clearly Hellenic-Iranic mixed name). The Greeks were in Bosporus by the 700 BCE. Again, there were Iranians and Cimmerians there too. But to downplay the Hellenic presence as "traces" is not right. There are "traces" of both Hellenic (and Iranic peoples) there now...2500 years ago they were not traces.

Pontus might also have had a Georgian and Armenian presence, prior to the Greeks and Iranians, especially if Hayasa (circa 1500 BCE) was an Armenian state.

In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.
 

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