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Thread: Was Cimmerian (Old Persian) an Albanized Iranian language?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    However, the persian and Medes were called "Arya." So it is a problem to directly connect persians to cimmerians. I think a answer to the same origin would be from the aryan's continuous migrations from the Altai, including scythian. The altai people at bronze age is same people as east european at that time.



    see the headgear. the left persian one is like scythian's and the right greek one has east scythian hair mode (american indian Mohawk hairstyle). Both swords have seima turbion style.



    see also darius's and scythian's helmet:



    right: a drawing by cand.sci.(history) d.v. pozdnyakov (iae sb ras) based on the reconstruction of the felt helmet by e.v. shumakova (iae sb ras). ak-alakha 1 burial mound 1
    https://scfh.ru/en/news/the-ukok-fem...yryk-culture-/

    see bird image [mean sky (= Zeus)] in the scythian helmet and mycenaean burial


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ai-petroglyph&
    looks like mycenaean, persian and late chinese bronze (zhou) people was closely related with scythian or its relative stocks who were ironically to be called "barbarian":




    figure . burial objects of the western zhou period:

    http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History...-religion.html




    The Scythian Kurgan Arzhan 2 (Tuva, Siberia), 7th century BC, Credit: Michael Hochmuth, German Archaeological Institute, Berlin.:

    https://phys.org/news/2017-04-scythi...ns-animal.html
    [B]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:



    Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:



    Persepolis:



    Behistun:



    Persian:



    Cimmerian (left):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    About your example, this sound change in Brazilian Portuguese seems to be really under influence of Japanese, according to wikipedia, it has always been standard in Brazil's Japanese community since it is also a feature of Japanese..
    That doesn't make sense historically and demographically. The change began in the late 19th century and early 20th century in Rio de Janeiro and spread from there to most parts of Brazil especially after the 1950s. The first Japanese immigrants only arrived in 1908, when that trend had already begun, and they concentrated in São Paulo, which in fact was a latecomer to the fricativization of "ti" and "di" in comparison with Rio de Janeiro and some other parts of Brazil, with many older people of São Paulo not fricativizing those consonants even today. Also, the Japanese diaspora in Brazil represents a mere 0.6% of the population and is heavily concentrated just in São Paulo and Paraná, with very tiny proportions in other states. They weren't that influential, and the change took place in many states that barely have any community of Japanese descent. No, they were independent developments, and linguists know why, because the vowel /i/ often changes then point of articulation of the preceding consonant, especially /t/ and /d/, triggering an eventual palatalization and, consequently, later developments such as fricativization. Similar processes happened in many unrelated languages throughout the time. Sound changes are not unique, they happen for a "physical" reason related to the apparatus of human speech, and that reason may occur multiple times in different languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:



    Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:



    Persepolis:



    Behistun:



    Persian:



    Cimmerian (left):

    Are they really identified by archaeologists or Cimmerians or is that just your interpreting these Persian figures as Cimmerians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    A battle scene between Cimmerians (Persians) and Scythians in the ancient wood paintings of Tatarli tumulus:



    Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:




    Persian:



    Brand new research found that both cimmerian and scythian have R1a- z645. They seems to have same origin. We have already known that they have east asian admixture. Now we have to wait and see persian aDNA.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...urasian-Steppe
    "We present new whole-genome sequences of 31 ancient Western and Eastern Steppe individuals including Scythians as well as samples pre- and postdating them, allowing us to set the Scythians in a temporal context (in the Western/Ponto-Caspian Steppe). We detect an increase of eastern (Altaian) affinity along with a decrease in Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) ancestry in the Early Iron Age Ponto- Caspian gene pool at the start of the Scythian dominance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post

    Cylinder of Chalcedony found in a Tomb of Cimmerian Bosphorus:


    I don't how to describe, but do you know how many bars of crown king wears?
    Basically, altai culture is same as mesomarica culture as you know. They have sunhead and (totem) animal culture, which yamna and afanasievo had also.

    see, looks like 12 feather (12 month?)


    china bronze (12):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Are they really identified by archaeologists or Cimmerians or is that just your interpreting these Persian figures as Cimmerians?
    Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Brand new research found that both cimmerian and scythian have R1a- z645. They seems to have same origin. We have already known that they have east asian admixture. Now we have to wait and see persian aDNA.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...urasian-Steppe
    "We present new whole-genome sequences of 31 ancient Western and Eastern Steppe individuals including Scythians as well as samples pre- and postdating them, allowing us to set the Scythians in a temporal context (in the Western/Ponto-Caspian Steppe). We detect an increase of eastern (Altaian) affinity along with a decrease in Eastern Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) ancestry in the Early Iron Age Ponto- Caspian gene pool at the start of the Scythian dominance."
    Of course both Cimmerian (Persian) and Scythian cultures have Iranian origin and Iranian is a subbranch of Indo-Iranian, sound changes in Indo-Iranian show influences from Altaic languages, it seems to be very possible that Indo-Iranian culture originated in the north of Central Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?
    You're not making much sense with seemingly rhetorical questions...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You're not making much sense with seemingly rhetorical questions...
    Those are actually very important questions, I strongly believe Persians (Cimmerians) firstly lived in Turkey, not Iran, we see very Persian names of Hystaspes (Vishtaspa) and Vindaspa among Neo-Hittite kings from the 10th century BC, the first known Persian king with the title of khshatra "shah, king" is actually the Cimmerian king Sandakhshatra who ruled in modern Turkey.




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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Persians origins came from modern Tajikistan/uzbekistan and went to Persia in 1000BC ...............
    The Persians, and their closest relatives were the Medes, and both came from the Saka peoples in the central Asian steppe. The Medes and Persians first entered Iran from the Uzbekistan around 1000 BC. They settled the central Iranian plateau, mixing with the Scythian and Kassite migrants who preceded them, as well as with the Elamitic natives. The Persians moved to present-day Fars around 700 BC. The Medes settled in the northwest and today are called the Kurds.
    We don't know who the Kassites were though. Officially, they are a language isolate, but some link them with the Hurrio-Urartians. Alternately, there is some speculation that they were some sort of Indo-Iranians, but this just speculation right now. They seem to have originally come from the Zagros Mountains. Also, most scholars don't link the Kurds with the Medes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Who were Persians?! Those who lived in the southwest of Iran or those who lived in the north of Turkey? Bosporan and Pontus kingdoms were Cimmerian or Persian? Zela in the north of Turkey was the holiest Cimmerian or Persian city?
    Weren't Bosporan and Pontus Hellenic? Scythians and Cimmerians were definitely in the region though by ~700 BCE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Weren't Bosporan and Pontus Hellenic? Scythians and Cimmerians were definitely in the region though by ~700 BCE.
    Which period? Of course traces of Hellenic culture existed in the whole Near East during the Hellenistic period.
    Neo-Hittite kings with Persian names show that Cimmerians had influence in this region from the 9th century BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Which period? Of course traces of Hellenic culture existed in the whole Near East during the Hellenistic period.
    Neo-Hittite kings with Persian names show that Cimmerians had influence in this region from the 9th century BC.
    It's not traces of Hellenic culture--the Greeks were pretty visible. The Greeks were in Pontus from around 1000 BCE. Yes, the Cimmerians (if they were Iranians even) and also Scythians were in the region, and there was later Iranian influence in the region, and some of the royalty were mixed (like Mithradates, with a clearly Hellenic-Iranic mixed name). The Greeks were in Bosporus by the 700 BCE. Again, there were Iranians and Cimmerians there too. But to downplay the Hellenic presence as "traces" is not right. There are "traces" of both Hellenic (and Iranic peoples) there now...2500 years ago they were not traces.

    Pontus might also have had a Georgian and Armenian presence, prior to the Greeks and Iranians, especially if Hayasa (circa 1500 BCE) was an Armenian state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    It's not traces of Hellenic culture--the Greeks were pretty visible. The Greeks were in Pontus from around 1000 BCE. Yes, the Cimmerians (if they were Iranians even) and also Scythians were in the region, and there was later Iranian influence in the region, and some of the royalty were mixed (like Mithradates, with a clearly Hellenic-Iranic mixed name). The Greeks were in Bosporus by the 700 BCE. Again, there were Iranians and Cimmerians there too. But to downplay the Hellenic presence as "traces" is not right. There are "traces" of both Hellenic (and Iranic peoples) there now...2500 years ago they were not traces.

    Pontus might also have had a Georgian and Armenian presence, prior to the Greeks and Iranians, especially if Hayasa (circa 1500 BCE) was an Armenian state.
    In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    As I mentioned in another thread I think Cimmerian migration to Pontus and west Persia relates to haplogroup R1b-Z2103: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    Oh then R1b in Mesopotamia, Levant too came with Cimmerians or they relate to Hittites? I thought R1b in Zagros has the ancient history togather with J2, G in ( 4000 BC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.
    Interesting! So you think Greeks/proto-Greeks were in Iran? When would this have been? Is there any scholarship on this?

    So if Armenian is satem with Greek sound changes (is this true? For example, PIE "p" became "h" in Armenian but not Greek) this suggests early contact between proto-Greeks and proto-Armenians, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.
    Could some of those Greek names come from Alexander or the Seleucids?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman View Post
    Could some of those Greek names come from Alexander or the Seleucids?
    Ofcourse, because Hellenic influences are certain upto Cyprus, western Turkey in 2nd millenium BC others are just possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyuiopman
    Interesting! So you think Greeks/proto-Greeks were in Iran? When would this have been? Is there any scholarship on this?

    So if Armenian is satem with Greek sound changes (is this true? For example, PIE "p" became "h" in Armenian but not Greek) this suggests early contact between proto-Greeks and proto-Armenians, right?
    You didn't get what I meant, I didn't mean there are the same sound changes in Greek and Armenian, as I have said several times in this forum, if we want to find the original land of a langauge, we should look at its phonology, proto-Greek voiceless aspirated stop consonants (pʰ, tʰ, kʰ) just exists in Armenian, it is enough reason to consider Armenia as the original land of proto-Greek.

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    Ofcourse, because Hellenic influences are certain upto Cyprus, western Turkey in 2nd millenium BC others are just possibilities.
    I don't talk about Hellenic influences but the origin of Hellenic culture, all elements of Greek culture can be traced back to the 2nd and early 1st millennium BC in Armenia and the northwest of Iran.

    Bas-relief of the proto-Greek temple of Musasir at the place of King Sargon II at Khorsabad:




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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    You didn't get what I meant, I didn't mean there are the same sound changes in Greek and Armenian, as I have said several times in this forum, if we want to find the original land of a langauge, we should look at its phonology, proto-Greek voiceless aspirated stop consonants (pʰ, tʰ, kʰ) just exists in Armenian, it is enough reason to consider Armenia as the original land of proto-Greek.
    Ah, yes. That makes sense. I was thinking this myself. We know that a) the Trialeti-Vanadzor culture of southern Georgia/northern Armenia/NE Turkey were in contact with the Mycenaeans, and b) that the people who constructed the grave complexes at Nerkin Naver/Verin Naver just outside of Yerevan were also in contact with them. Both Trialeti-Vanadzor and the Nerkin/Verin Naver builders are believed to have been Indo-European (as far as I know, Nerkin/Verin Naver and Trialeti peoples could have been from the same cultures).

    It's known that the early Greek (Mycenaean and maybe Minoan--they were pretty similar, I think) ancestry is from eastern Anatolia at least partially. There is also a theory that the Ahhiyawans were the Achaeans, and they were either in Cilicia or Western Turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    I don't talk about Hellenic influences but the origin of Hellenic culture, all elements of Greek culture can be traced back to the 2nd and early 1st millennium BC in Armenia and the northwest of Iran.

    Bas-relief of the proto-Greek temple of Musasir at the place of King Sargon II at Khorsabad:



    I once read that Khaldi (the Urartian sun-god, who is generally assumed to have been Akkadian originally) was actually a form of Helios. Khal=Hel and di potentially being the Armenian word for "god" (compare with dios, divine, diety, etc). Khaldi's main temple was located at Musasir.

    Urartu flourished from the 9th to 6th centuries BCE, so well after the Greeks were already established, but perhaps there is something to Helos and Khaldi being connected further back, centuries before.

    An ancient Greek writer, I cannot remember who it was, wrote about the Akkadian Greeks who lived in Chaldea.

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    From what I understand, its roots are more Semitic, but I also understand that that is the minority position.

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    ‘Deša’, ‘Djeth’ are not Albanian. If you want your tro-lling to seem more legit, at least use Albanian comparisons.

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