Was Cimmerian (Old Persian) an Albanized Iranian language?

As I mentioned in another thread I think Cimmerian migration to Pontus and west Persia relates to haplogroup R1b-Z2103: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png

Oh then R1b in Mesopotamia, Levant too came with Cimmerians or they relate to Hittites? I thought R1b in Zagros has the ancient history togather with J2, G in ( 4000 BC).
 
In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.

Interesting! So you think Greeks/proto-Greeks were in Iran? When would this have been? Is there any scholarship on this?

So if Armenian is satem with Greek sound changes (is this true? For example, PIE "p" became "h" in Armenian but not Greek) this suggests early contact between proto-Greeks and proto-Armenians, right?
 
In the 2nd millennium BC, not only in Pontus but also in the south Caucasus or even in the south of Caspian sea a proto-Hellenic culture existed, it can said almost all ancient objects which been found in Marlik, Amlash, ... have Greek style, most of place names in this region, from Neka, Kandelus, Zanus, Chalus to Samamus, Espinas, Anzali, Astara, ... have Greek origin. Armenian is actually a Satem language with Greek sound changes.

Could some of those Greek names come from Alexander or the Seleucids?
 
Could some of those Greek names come from Alexander or the Seleucids?

Ofcourse, because Hellenic influences are certain upto Cyprus, western Turkey in 2nd millenium BC others are just possibilities.
 
tyuiopman said:
Interesting! So you think Greeks/proto-Greeks were in Iran? When would this have been? Is there any scholarship on this?

So if Armenian is satem with Greek sound changes (is this true? For example, PIE "p" became "h" in Armenian but not Greek) this suggests early contact between proto-Greeks and proto-Armenians, right?

You didn't get what I meant, I didn't mean there are the same sound changes in Greek and Armenian, as I have said several times in this forum, if we want to find the original land of a langauge, we should look at its phonology, proto-Greek voiceless aspirated stop consonants (pʰ, tʰ, kʰ) just exists in Armenian, it is enough reason to consider Armenia as the original land of proto-Greek.
 
Ofcourse, because Hellenic influences are certain upto Cyprus, western Turkey in 2nd millenium BC others are just possibilities.

I don't talk about Hellenic influences but the origin of Hellenic culture, all elements of Greek culture can be traced back to the 2nd and early 1st millennium BC in Armenia and the northwest of Iran.

Bas-relief of the proto-Greek temple of Musasir at the place of King Sargon II at Khorsabad:

Bas-relief-of-Musasir-Temple.jpg


nkar_5368.jpg
 
You didn't get what I meant, I didn't mean there are the same sound changes in Greek and Armenian, as I have said several times in this forum, if we want to find the original land of a langauge, we should look at its phonology, proto-Greek voiceless aspirated stop consonants (pʰ, tʰ, kʰ) just exists in Armenian, it is enough reason to consider Armenia as the original land of proto-Greek.

Ah, yes. That makes sense. I was thinking this myself. We know that a) the Trialeti-Vanadzor culture of southern Georgia/northern Armenia/NE Turkey were in contact with the Mycenaeans, and b) that the people who constructed the grave complexes at Nerkin Naver/Verin Naver just outside of Yerevan were also in contact with them. Both Trialeti-Vanadzor and the Nerkin/Verin Naver builders are believed to have been Indo-European (as far as I know, Nerkin/Verin Naver and Trialeti peoples could have been from the same cultures).

It's known that the early Greek (Mycenaean and maybe Minoan--they were pretty similar, I think) ancestry is from eastern Anatolia at least partially. There is also a theory that the Ahhiyawans were the Achaeans, and they were either in Cilicia or Western Turkey.
 
I don't talk about Hellenic influences but the origin of Hellenic culture, all elements of Greek culture can be traced back to the 2nd and early 1st millennium BC in Armenia and the northwest of Iran.

Bas-relief of the proto-Greek temple of Musasir at the place of King Sargon II at Khorsabad:

Bas-relief-of-Musasir-Temple.jpg


nkar_5368.jpg

I once read that Khaldi (the Urartian sun-god, who is generally assumed to have been Akkadian originally) was actually a form of Helios. Khal=Hel and di potentially being the Armenian word for "god" (compare with dios, divine, diety, etc). Khaldi's main temple was located at Musasir.

Urartu flourished from the 9th to 6th centuries BCE, so well after the Greeks were already established, but perhaps there is something to Helos and Khaldi being connected further back, centuries before.

An ancient Greek writer, I cannot remember who it was, wrote about the Akkadian Greeks who lived in Chaldea.
 
From what I understand, its roots are more Semitic, but I also understand that that is the minority position.
 
‘Deša’, ‘Djeth’ are not Albanian. If you want your tro-lling to seem more legit, at least use Albanian comparisons.
 
I don't talk about modern Albanian which is actually a mixture of different languages, including Persian, look at this book: https://www.worldcat.org/title/persizmat-ne-gjuhen-shqipe-dhe-studimi-i-tyre/oclc/705975187


They are not Albanian, old or new.

Modern Albanian is not a mixture of different languages. It has been influenced by many languages over the centuries just like any other Indo-European language out there, and that's what that book is about. The Persian influence which obviously we absorbed in the last 500 years during Ottoman empire, moron.
 
They are not Albanian, old or new.

Modern Albanian is not a mixture of different languages. It has been influenced by many languages over the centuries just like any other Indo-European language out there, and that's what that book is about. The Persian influence which obviously we absorbed in the last 500 years during Ottoman empire, moron.

What do you want to say?! That is what linguists say, not me, for example about Albanian deša, look here: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/re...me=/data/ie/piet&text_number=1654&root=config in Old Persian daushta also means "to love, to like", modern Persian dust "beloved, friend".
 
What linguists?!

Albanian alphabet, doesn’t use ‘Š’. Perhaps it means something in Serbian?

Linguists use š instead of "sh" because in some language sh is pronounced as aspirated-s, so it may be confused. Voiceless postalveolar fricative (sh) certainly exists in Albanian phonology, however it didn't exist in some other languages in this region, like Greek and Latin.
 
What linguists?!

Albanian alphabet, doesn’t use ‘Š’. Perhaps it means something in Serbian?

Cyrus means "Dashuri=Love" in albanian is like old Persian word "daushta=to love" so how come it be from Ottoman period? lol
 
Cyrus means "Dashuri=Love" in albanian is like old Persian word "daushta=to love" so how come it be from Ottoman period? lol

What prevents it? I don't follow your logic. Did modern Persian completely ditch the Old Persian word daushta = to love?
 
You didn't get what I meant, I didn't mean there are the same sound changes in Greek and Armenian, as I have said several times in this forum, if we want to find the original land of a langauge, we should look at its phonology, proto-Greek voiceless aspirated stop consonants (pʰ, tʰ, kʰ) just exists in Armenian, it is enough reason to consider Armenia as the original land of proto-Greek.

Why would you assume that? That only makes sense if Armenians necessarily stayed put, and only Greeks moved around, but there is no such evidence. Some common phonological aspects are not enough to assume common imediate origin, but in the case of Greek and Armenian the connections are far more than some shared sound changes in a few consonants, so the link probably does exist, however the only thing it proves is that Armenian and Greek descend from a common IE source in the early days of the language family, nothing else. It says nothing about where thta language was spoken.
 
Why would you assume that? That only makes sense if Armenians necessarily stayed put, and only Greeks moved around, but there is no such evidence. Some common phonological aspects are not enough to assume common imediate origin, but in the case of Greek and Armenian the connections are far more than some shared sound changes in a few consonants, so the link probably does exist, however the only thing it proves is that Armenian and Greek descend from a common IE source in the early days of the language family, nothing else. It says nothing about where thta language was spoken.

You're right, there is no solid evidence (such as a stele written in Armenian or something along those lines) but there is ceramic evidence of the so-called Transcaucasian ceramic ware moving westward into modern Turkey from the South Caucasus region around the Bronze Age Collapse...reaching at least as far into the Anatolian interior as Elazig, whereas the western (Balkanic) ceramic ware from this period didn't go further east than Kirshehir. The eastern settlements suggest a 50% increase in population from the Caucasus region (i.e. there was a significant migration of settlers from the Caucasus into Anatolia).

The issue with the western (Balkan) ceramic ware group being at least partially Armenian is that it doesn't take into account the apparent early linguistic contact/relationship between Armenian and Caucasian languages and Armenian and Hurro-Urartian languages.

There are still linguists that support the Balkan model, but I think there is a growing body of linguists that are supporting a Caucasus origin of the Armenians. For example, people like Eric Hamp, who suggests that Armenians and Greeks broke off from each other in Georgia, and that the Greeks moved west from there while Armenians stayed in the same relative region.

If a) the Alaca Hoyuk tombs were Indo-European but not Anatolian and b) if the Achaeans were the early Greeks, similar or the same as the Mycenaeans, and potentially the same as the Ahhiyawans, the Armenian model of Greek migration works well.

Alternately, if the Armenians did come from the Balkans, perhaps they came at some point much earlier than 1200 BCE.
 

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