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Thread: Saxons, or the People of the Knife (Seax)?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Scythians were only R1B and R1A :
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/ira...s-and-r1b-l23/
    The Saxons from England are having more K1 maternal DNA than today English, which seems to confirm that Scythians did settled in Lower Saxony and mixed with the local there.
    Scythians are European people, as Autosomal DNA, with some overlapping with our days Scandinavians:
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/ira...s-and-r1b-l23/
    the Scythians we have at hand here are all of them setlled in Ukraine, Moldova, so Eastern Europe; seemingly not the cradle of the culture which was, i think, closer to Altay - it confirmes what I thought; and on the PCA they are not close to N-Germanics Scandinvainas, but rather widely spred between S-E Europeans and Caucasus, with someones who show trends towards Slavs (logical!) west Steppic pops or even S-W postBronze pops or Europe -
    and their Y-haplos are R1b, OK, but not the P312(+) ones; they are M269, and we can only SUPPOSE they were or at least gave birth to L23, but we know the most of L23 in E-Europe did not "produce" a lot of L51, they gave rather Z2103 and followers there -
    NO, anDNA doesn't give us any evident link between Scythians and ancient Saxons, for I think, and the DNA you cites show a great mixture of Scythians with local pops in Europe.

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    It is possible that the name of Saka (Scythia) is in fact from proto-IE *sek "to cut", it means "section, part", synonym of Pars (Persia) and Part (Parthia) from proto-IE *par "to cut" which also means "section, part", they were actually different parts of Aryan lands. Names of Scythian weapons, such as sagaris (sakari), scimitar, eskana, ... could be from the same origin too.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Some samples of R1A Scythians, show them close to the current Nordish people of Europe (Germans,Austrians,Brits,Irish, Baltic people etc)"
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/...-scythian.html
    This is the Autosomal DNA closeness to the current Europe Nordish people:
    Lithuanian 0.645247
    Estonian 0.645233
    Latvian 0.645024
    Russian_Kostroma 0.644946
    Irish 0.644902
    Orcadian 0.644792
    Norwegian 0.644754
    Belorussian 0.644727
    Swedish 0.644667
    Polish 0.644664
    Austrian 0.644639
    Danish 0.644587
    English_Cornwall 0.644556
    Belgian 0.644552
    Scottish_Argyll 0.644548

    However, no one included Germans, or Lower Saxony people, or SE English people, to calculate a similarity to those, also.
    Cornwall people were considering themselves Insular Celtic ethnics.
    So, is quite clear that when some Scotts, Poles, English were claiming Scythian descent, this was not untrue.
    That's a lot of assumptions. They had a common origin in Steppe_EMBA, and, in the case of Balto-Slavs in particular, Steppe_MLBA peoples, so they shared a common ancestry well before the early Scythians appeared in the Iron Age. It's a case of similarity due to shared ancestry, not due to one descending from the other. Actually, the "classical" Scythians had East Asian ancestry, in the case of its probable origins (Eastern Central Eurasian steppe) quite a lot of East Asian ancestry, which can't be seen in Scots, Poles, English and other Central/Northwestern European peoples. Autosomally, their steppe ancestry was much more of the CWC-related type that mixed with remnants of Yamnaya-related peoples (Catacomb, Poltavka, Potapovka) to form the MLBA peoples of the steppe. So, it's evident that ancestral connections would exist, but only indirectly. Scythians of the later IA had a much more mixed genetic makeup (autosomally, in Mt-DNA particularly, but even in Y-DNA), especially those from east of the Don, and we don't see that in West Germanic people.

    Besides, Scythians were not mostly R1b-P312. They had a large variety of haplogroups, but R1a-M417 clearly prevailed in the earlier samples from the origins of their culture. But it's not even that which matters. What specific subclades of R1b-P312 or R1a-M417 are we talking about? These are haplogroups that are traced back to the BA, but we already know that early Indo-Iranians and other IE-speaking groups in Europe had shared ancestry in BA steppe-derived peoples. This kind of hypothesis can only be confirmed if you look at the specific/recent clades of P312 and M417 that the Scythians had and the descendants of Saxons have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Some samples of R1A Scythians, show them close to the current Nordish people of Europe (Germans,Austrians,Brits,Irish, Baltic people etc)"
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/...-scythian.html
    This is the Autosomal DNA closeness to the current Europe Nordish people:
    Lithuanian 0.645247
    Estonian 0.645233
    Latvian 0.645024
    Russian_Kostroma 0.644946
    Irish 0.644902
    Orcadian 0.644792
    Norwegian 0.644754
    Belorussian 0.644727
    Swedish 0.644667
    Polish 0.644664
    Austrian 0.644639
    Danish 0.644587
    English_Cornwall 0.644556
    Belgian 0.644552
    Scottish_Argyll 0.644548

    However, no one included Germans, or Lower Saxony people, or SE English people, to calculate a similarity to those, also.
    Cornwall people were considering themselves Insular Celtic ethnics.
    So, is quite clear that when some Scotts, Poles, English were claiming Scythian descent, this was not untrue.
    You should read the comments for that post you linked from Eurogenes blog, Many commenters bring up some very good points and they are worth it to read as they highlight various discrepancies within ancient texts and our general knowledge of this period and the people that are recorded to have lived in this period.

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    Well , slightly off topic:
    England had the strongest horse culture from Europe.
    Including horse races.
    This is what I've found about this subject:
    https://englishhistoryauthors.blogsp...orses.html?m=1
    So it seems that it might not have been the Saxons that brought the horse culture in England.
    But Saxons were also using horses, after a prolonged stay in England.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 14-05-19 at 22:07.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Okay, but the Avars, Huns, Alans, Vandals, Goths, Tencteri, Usipetes, etc all used horses to great effect and some of these groups fought almost exclusively on horseback. Having a horse culture does not instantly mean one is descended from Scythians. Like all things cultural and innovative, the many uses of the horse spread to various people through trade and contact.

    We can keep discussing the Saxons, but similar sounding demonyms between Saxon and whatever terms Scythians used for themselves is just not convincing enough. The evidence of the Saxons being (North Sea) Germanic people is quite strong. Germanic people were spreading out from Scandinavia when they encountered Scythian nomads (example being Greuthungi, Tervingi Goths living in the same area as Scytho-Sarmatians.)

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    I have not said that the Saxons were not Germanic people, that resided in North Germany.
    I just said in the first post of the thread that Seax is a knife that was used only by the Saxons and that it had a very close name to the name of the Saxons.
    I also supposed that Saxon/Sachsen name might be linked with some Scythians that settled between the Germanic people from North Germany and that they had some cultural influence at those Germanic people,from North Germany.
    The link posted here is very convicing in showing that both Saxons and Vikings had at least prolonged contact with the Scythians.
    The idea that a group of West Germanic people,in our case the Saxons, is descending exactly from only Germanic people is not supported by linguistics and is not supported by genetics , either.
    The name Saxons was given to the Germanic tribes speaking the Saxon dialect of German language, which was very close if not identical to Old English language.

    In the link is shown very clear using linguistic arguments that the views of Saxons and Vikings about the Scythians were positive.
    "We have an English word skittish, from late middle English, perhaps from the rare verb skit "move lightly and rapidly". Another related word is the Old Norse verb skjota "to shoot, launch, move quickly". Also there is a Scottish Gaelic word sgiot (scatter, disperse) which could be related.

    In Serbian skit means wanderer,
    skita means wanders, skitati means to wander, skitnja, skitanje means wandering, roaming. Skiti - nomads. This is not a Slavic wide word. It is only found in Serbo Croatian."

    The Scythians were not Persian people, since they were called by the Persians "Saka".
    And this is well known from history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    In the link is shown very clear using linguistic arguments that the views of Saxons and Vikings about the Scythians were positive.
    "We have an English word skittish, from late middle English, perhaps from the rare verb skit "move lightly and rapidly". Another related word is the Old Norse verb skjota "to shoot, launch, move quickly". Also there is a Scottish Gaelic word sgiot (scatter, disperse) which could be related.

    In Serbian skit means wanderer,
    skita means wanders, skitati means to wander, skitnja, skitanje means wandering, roaming. Skiti - nomads. This is not a Slavic wide word. It is only found in Serbo Croatian."

    The Scythians were not Persian people, since they were called by the Persians "Saka".
    And this is well known from history.
    Scythian is not how the Scythians themselves named themselves, but in any case I'd be wary of the "linguistic arguments" based solely on sound similarity and nothing else. The example given can be plausibly and perfectly from Proto-Germanic and have nothing to do with Scythians. The skit vs. shoot alternation is not unusual for English, which inherited words from the same Proto-Germanic root via Old English (where /sk/ became /sh/ since early) and Old Norse (where /sk/ was still /sk/), so that you have for instance shirt vs. skirt, shatter vs. scatter. The rare to skit might have come from Old Norse skjóta, equivalent to Old English-derived to shoot, and both of them have a clear Proto-Germanic root *skeutanã- and an attested PIE root *(s)kewd-, "to shoot, to throw". From shoot, throw to move quickly and lightly or wandering the semantic shift looks very plausible. Serbo-Croatian might well have inherited from Gothic/East Germanic languages, since we know they were in the Balkans and near the Slavic homeland, and they had the verb *skiutan, pretty similar to skita/skitati/skitanje. When the Serbo-Croatians' ancestral Slavs migrated to the Balkans, the Scythians had basically vanished and been absorbed by new ethnicities, mainly Turkic ones, but also Eastern Germanics, Sarmatians and Alans. It's unlikely, I think, that the verb would come from a reference to them, unless it refered generically and imprecisely to Scythians as "people who come from the east via the steppes" just like Middle Eastern and South Asian people kept referring to Franks to refer to Europeans as a whole even after the Crusades.

    Anyway, there is no doubt some Germanic tribes and Scythian had contacts between themselves. I just doubt that the Scythians had any major role in the ethnogenesis of the particular Germanic ethnicities like the Saxons, who were among the northwesternmost Germanic peoples, further away from Scythians than other Germanic groups.

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    The link from one of my posts here shows, from a Greek historian, that Scythians had a blade adoring ritual.
    The Saxons , or Sak-sen, can be "the sons of the blade" .
    So the Saxons/Saksen might be actually Germanic tribes from North Germany, that took some blade rituals from some Scythian tribes.
    They might have carried the Seaks as a religious symbol, related to their supreme god, Odin.
    Since Saxons religion might have been a modified Odinism, they were having as a symbol for Odin or Thor, the blade.
    It explains with ease why Middlesex and Essex etc had a flag with a blade on it and why later,England, had adopted a flag with a Cross on it, after they become Christians.
    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/191...annica/Scythia

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    The link from one of my posts here shows, from a Greek historian, that Scythians had a blade adoring ritual.
    The Saxons , or Sak-sen, can be "the sons of the blade" .
    So the Saxons/Saksen might be actually Germanic tribes from North Germany, that took some blade rituals from some Scythian tribes.
    They might have carried the Seaks as a religious symbol, related to their supreme god, Odin.
    Since Saxons religion might have been a modified Odinism, they were having as a symbol for Odin or Thor, the blade.
    It explains with ease why Middlesex and Essex etc had a flag with a blade on it and why later,England, had adopted a flag with a Cross on it, after they become Christians.
    https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/191...annica/Scythia
    I would very much doubt that etymology, when there is this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saxon

    The seax was a tool and in certain instances a weapon. Sure it may have had some aspects of religious symbolism whether that is tied to Wodan we can't be sure, however there was a Saxon deity called "Seaxnēat" which is usually taken to mean "helper of the Saxons". Our knowledge of Anglo-Saxon paganism is fairly poor and limited in its scope, with Continental Germanic paganism being even more fragmentary and limited. Scandinavian paganism is the better attested of Germanic mythologies and it likely developed unique aspects and traits that make it quite a bit different from the neighbouring Germanic mythologies such as Anglo-Saxon or Continental Germanic.

    St. George's cross (the one seen in the flag of England) has its origins in a crusade which Henry II of England and Philip II of France took part in, it doesn't have much to do with the flags of Middlesex or Essex.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    OK, but if we to ask the people from Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein they never had traditions to wear a Seax with them.
    So, those ancient Saxons that came to South of England with their Seaxneat where not having the normal Odin and Freya, that all Germanic people had, as pre-Christian religion.
    This Seaxneat was wielding a sword and is resembling very well the supreme deity of the Scythians.
    So I still keep the opinion that some Scythians tribes came in Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein, terrorized or brain washed the people there and took some people from Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein, with which they migrated to South of England.
    Why Essex, Middlesex had Seaxes on their flags?
    Ancient Saxons seems to have significant K1 maternal lines, so they were not actually 100% Europeans.

    I am also Germanic, because all Romanians are descending from East Germanic tribes and Dacians and I do not believe the lies that Seaxneath was "Germanic god" of the "Germanic Saxons".
    Seaxneath is Scythian god and Germanic people religion with Odin and Freya was quite complex and was a religion about wisdom.
    Odin is having a staff with him and travels.
    As for the people telling that Vikings were going to raid in British Isles to "die in battle to go in Valhalla" that is nonsense.
    Maybe Scythians had such a religion.
    So I am sorry, but I think traditionalistic English and Americans should renounce to their Scythian non-sense, with Seaxneath and excessive use of weapons and adoration for wars.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Another thing, from the ancient European languages, the language spoken by migrating Saxons to England was most close to current Iranic languages.
    But Scythians were not fully IndoEuropean people, but South Siberian/Central Asian partially and mostly, Nordish DNA people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another thing, from the ancient European languages, the language spoken by migrating Saxons to England was most close to current Iranic languages.
    But Scythians were not fully IndoEuropean people, but South Siberian/Central Asian partially and mostly, Nordish DNA people.
    Where did you find all these bald affirmations concerning the specific ancient anglo-saxon dialect send to England? as opposed to other Germanic dialects or IE dialects of N-E Europe?
    According to your method of determining religion membership or closeness, why not examine all the coats of arms of Europe feuda families and try to divine new religions memberships based on symboles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another thing, from the ancient European languages, the language spoken by migrating Saxons to England was most close to current Iranic languages.
    But Scythians were not fully IndoEuropean people, but South Siberian/Central Asian partially and mostly, Nordish DNA people.
    You know that almost all English historical sources mention a an early Scythian migration to England (in fact they were called as one of the first people who settled in this land), such as "Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation" by Bede, the father of English History, "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle", compiled on the orders of King Alfred the Great, "Historia Brittonum", by Nennius, "History of the Kings of Britain", by Geoffrey of Monmouth, ...
    Modern English historian Sharon Turner talk about numerous Old English words which have Iranian origin, of course by comparing to Persian.
    The interesting thing is that we see some possible sound changes of Scythian language in Old English loanwords from this language, for example cognate of the English verb fly in Persian is pridan, a possible sound change in Scythian is p>b and we see Old English bridd with the meaning of "bird".

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    OK, but if we to ask the people from Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein they never had traditions to wear a Seax with them.
    So, those ancient Saxons that came to South of England with their Seaxneat where not having the normal Odin and Freya, that all Germanic people had, as pre-Christian religion.
    This Seaxneat was wielding a sword and is resembling very well the supreme deity of the Scythians.
    So I still keep the opinion that some Scythians tribes came in Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein, terrorized or brain washed the people there and took some people from Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein, with which they migrated to South of England.
    Why Essex, Middlesex had Seaxes on their flags?
    Ancient Saxons seems to have significant K1 maternal lines, so they were not actually 100% Europeans.
    Umm, many Germanic tribes made use of the seax and it is not restricted to the Saxons, we know the Alemanni, Franks, Longobards, etc used this tool. You're going to ask modern people living in Lower Saxony if they used seaxs? I'm betting none of them have because they are living in the modern era.

    We have know visual attestations of what Seaxneat was believed to have looked like and we have next to nothing on this deity. Please present your source for him holding a sword and resembling the supreme deity of the Scythians (who according to Herodotus was a goddess, not a god).

    The flags you reference were designed in more modern times in England and the cutlasses on the flags were likely in remembrance of the Saxons for whom the counties are named. From what I can see we have no attestations of the Kingdom of Essex's flag, however we do have a representation of the Wessex flag, which was a yellow wyvern on a white background.

    Ancient Saxons had a lot of K1? Which specific mitochondrial branch? The varities found in the near east or the varities found in Europe? Don't base assumptions on rather basal haplogroups.

    I am also Germanic, because all Romanians are descending from East Germanic tribes and Dacians and I do not believe the lies that Seaxneath was "Germanic god" of the "Germanic Saxons".
    Seaxneath is Scythian god and Germanic people religion with Odin and Freya was quite complex and was a religion about wisdom.
    Odin is having a staff with him and travels.
    As for the people telling that Vikings were going to raid in British Isles to "die in battle to go in Valhalla" that is nonsense.
    Maybe Scythians had such a religion.
    So I am sorry, but I think traditionalistic English and Americans should renounce to their Scythian non-sense, with Seaxneath and excessive use of weapons and adoration for wars.
    Romanians likely owe most of their ancestry to Dacians and related peoples with smaller contributions from the various incoming people such as Scythians, Celts, Germanics, Huns, Slavic groups, etc.

    Seaxneat most definitely was a Saxon isolate god specific to their religion, the Germanic religion was not some hardlined and enforced religion with rules and sets like Abrahamic religions, it was fluid and certain tribes within the sphere of Germanic culture had their own independent variances. Where is the evidence tying Seaxneat to the Scythians? Please provide the source for this claim.

    The Vikings raided Britain, France, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands, etc they weren't doing this to die in Valhalla, they were doing this because the monasteries they initially started raiding were undefended and full of riches. Part of the ferocity in battle is linked to the belief in the afterlife, specifically in a hall of fallen warriors (hence "Valhalla").

    The last part you mention... can you elaborate?


    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another thing, from the ancient European languages, the language spoken by migrating Saxons to England was most close to current Iranic languages.
    But Scythians were not fully IndoEuropean people, but South Siberian/Central Asian partially and mostly, Nordish DNA people.
    Here is a text sample of Old Saxon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Saxon#Text_sample
    Here are text samples of reconstructed Scythian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issyk_inscription, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythi...s#Inscriptions


    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Where did you find all these bald affirmations concerning the specific ancient anglo-saxon dialect send to England? as opposed to other Germanic dialects or IE dialects of N-E Europe?
    According to your method of determining religion membership or closeness, why not examine all the coats of arms of Europe feuda families and try to divine new religions memberships based on symboles?
    I'm asking the same questions, coincidental similarities and referencing modern flag designs is not evidence of ancient links. The Saxon people were most similar to other North Sea Germanic populations that surrounded them: Angles, Jutes, Franks, Frisians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    You know that almost all English historical sources mention a an early Scythian migration to England (in fact they were called as one of the first people who settled in this land), such as "Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation" by Bede, the father of English History, "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle", compiled on the orders of King Alfred the Great, "Historia Brittonum", by Nennius, "History of the Kings of Britain", by Geoffrey of Monmouth, ...
    Modern English historian Sharon Turner talk about numerous Old English words which have Iranian origin, of course by comparing to Persian.
    The interesting thing is that we see some possible sound changes of Scythian language in Old English loanwords from this language, for example cognate of the English verb fly in Persian is pridan, a possible sound change in Scythian is p>b and we see Old English bridd with the meaning of "bird".
    In Nennius' work "Scythia" was not mentioned in the original language the work was written in, Latin. Bede and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle were discussing Picts who resided in Scotland as coming from Scythia. Both poetic ways of writing.

    Please provide your source on pridan as I cannot find it in Persian dictionaries. I wish to see the root origin of that word. We should at least note that many languages have words of unexplained origins, yet we don't jump the gun and link them to others without sufficient evidence.

    I found this link: http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm
    Last edited by spruithean; 20-05-19 at 00:14.

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    some words picked here and there can send us very far:
    to confuse ourselves a bit more, why not to compare the old brittonic name of Pritania which became Britannia for Romans, surely through a stage Brittonia where we could find a confusion with Brittia, relatively close Celtic name for North Pritania, in it the word *britt or *brikt, become 'brith' : "variated", "speckled", applied to Picts (tattooed). So, your pre-"bird" pridan word could be linked to Celts too, no end!
    ATW Sarmatians mercenaries were send to Britain by Romans armies, so as their dialects were close to the Scythians ones, there is no odd that some loans could have taken place in this frame (so more Latin or Celtic than Germanic); in fine: all I-Eans were Scythians?!? Simplest, I take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another thing, from the ancient European languages, the language spoken by migrating Saxons to England was most close to current Iranic languages.
    But Scythians were not fully IndoEuropean people, but South Siberian/Central Asian partially and mostly, Nordish DNA people.
    Hmm, in fact all the Germanic-speaking people would have that closeness to Iranic languages - or rather to Indo-Iranian ones as whole, to be more accurate -, not just the Saxons, so that doesn't tell us much or even anything about the supposed Saxon-Scythian connection, because the linguistic connection is extremely ancient and dates to even before the appearance of the Proto-Germanic language, and in fact the Germanic branch is closer to both Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian, which suggests some Early Bronze Age (probably CWC, I think) connection. But none of that has anything to do with Saxons in the later Iron Age.

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    Think this Seax theory and Scythians theories should be taken with agrain of salt.
    Simple thing is that those Saxons were called Sasanach and are called Sasanach in the current Welsh Gaelic and Irish Gaelic.
    And migrants from Lower Saxony to Romania were and are called Sas at singular.
    As for the Seax and Saxons well sorry, Saxons from Romania never had Seaxes.
    Maybe the Vikings brought the use of Seaxes, cause is quite clear that is not the Saxons ,to me.
    As for the flags of Essex with those curved blades, the Seaxes found in archaeological sites are not curved.
    Those Essex flags with curved blades are looking to me to be rather linked with the British Pirates.

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    These curved blades with a notch from the more recent flags of Essex are what is called "scimitars".
    Not Seaxes.
    Now since is somehow close to the subject do anyone knows when is the word Essex mentioned earliest, in the history?
    Essex cannot be more ancient than New English language I think.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Think this Seax theory and Scythians theories should be taken with agrain of salt.
    Simple thing is that those Saxons were called Sasanach and are called Sasanach in the current Welsh Gaelic and Irish Gaelic.
    And migrants from Lower Saxony to Romania were and are called Sas at singular.
    As for the Seax and Saxons well sorry, Saxons from Romania never had Seaxes.
    Maybe the Vikings brought the use of Seaxes, cause is quite clear that is not the Saxons ,to me.
    As for the flags of Essex with those curved blades, the Seaxes found in archaeological sites are not curved.
    Those Essex flags with curved blades are looking to me to be rather linked with the British Pirates.
    The Gaelic and Welsh speakers (Welsh is not Gaelic) refer to English people or English things as "Saxon" in their languages as that is one of the tribes that arrived in England. It doesn't require mental gymnastics to figure out how they got that name in Celtic languages.

    Iron Age Germanic tribes ranging from Franks, Saxons, Alemanni, Baiuvarii, Longobards, etc used seaxes, be them scramasax or small renditions of the knife. What is this preoccupation with trying to remove the Saxons from users of the seax?

    Saxons in Romania are 12th-13th century (etc) migrants from Franconian speaking areas of Germany. A rather mid to high medieval, settled and Christianised people. Far removed from the Iron Age migratory tribes of the past. Why would they use seaxes?

    Essex and Middlesex flags are a more modern creation! They were not and are not the actual flags from Dark Age Britain.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    These curved blades with a notch from the more recent flags of Essex are what is called "scimitars".
    Not Seaxes.
    Now since is somehow close to the subject do anyone knows when is the word Essex mentioned earliest, in the history?
    Essex cannot be more ancient than New English language I think.
    I already mentioned this earlier about the flags and cutlasses. Essex, as a term has its origins in Old English. In the term "Ēast Seaxna" from the kingdom called in Old English "Ēast Seaxna Rīce" which was active from 527 to 825 AD.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We had lots of Saxons in Romania and no one used Seaxes.
    They are called sasi at plural and at singular sas.
    They were brought in Transylvania starting with 1150 or so.
    Those Saxons that migrated to South England were called sasanach in the language of local Gaels so I think we can safely suppose they were from same Germany people.
    Why would Saxons renounced to use their traditional Seaxes?
    As for the history of England with some Scythians that migrated there, what can say I?
    I got no opinion about that.
    Maybe Vikings brought the use of Seaxes.
    Seems a lot more likely.

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    Sorry for writting nonsense here - highly doubt Sachsen/Saxon comes from "son of a seax".
    Will attempt to talk to some Saxons from Romania maybe some know the origin of their tribes name.

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    Let us try some more logical explanation.
    Saksen is how Saxon people are called on Frisian.
    However the Saxons from Lower Saxony are calling their land in their own German dialect:
    Nedersassen.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony
    https://fr.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Neddersassen
    So they actually call themselves Sas in their own language.
    Exactly as we call them in Romanian.
    And this is also explaining their name in Gaelic British and Irish Gaelic languages or sasanach.
    And Welsh Gaelic and Irish Gaelic were and are calling England:
    Sasana.
    Old English however is more close to Frisian and in Frisian Saxons are called Saksen.
    As for the Seax who knows, but I do not think is related to Lower Saxony migrants that came to England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    We had lots of Saxons in Romania and no one used Seaxes.
    They are called sasi at plural and at singular sas.
    They were brought in Transylvania starting with 1150 or so.
    Those Saxons that migrated to South England were called sasanach in the language of local Gaels so I think we can safely suppose they were from same Germany people.
    Why would Saxons renounced to use their traditional Seaxes?
    As for the history of England with some Scythians that migrated there, what can say I?
    I got no opinion about that.
    Maybe Vikings brought the use of Seaxes.
    Seems a lot more likely.
    Have you ever thought that maybe the Latin works in Britain that referred to the "Saxones" was a possible influence on the Gaelic and Brythonic languages for their own terms for Saxons? It's not hard to make this connection.

    Again, Welsh and Cornish are not Gaelic and Anglo-Saxon tribes encountered Brythonic people in England, not Gaels.

    You are aware of what I just posted right? The Transylvanian Saxons are called Saxons erroneously. Freistaat Sachsen got its name from incoming Saxons and Thuringians, this is a medieval Carolingian era movement, not iron age.

    You are aware that I've already stated that the Longobards, Alemanni, Saxons, Bavarians, Etc ALL have been found with seaxes in their graves and they PREDATE the Vikings by centuries! You are making conclusions without actually considering any evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Sorry for writting nonsense here - highly doubt Sachsen/Saxon comes from "son of a seax".
    Will attempt to talk to some Saxons from Romania maybe some know the origin of their tribes name.
    Who ever said "Saxon" meant son of a seax? You made that conclusion through "Sachsen". It's an erroneous conclusion.

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    The name Seax - which is pronouced Seaks - applied to a certain type of blade is exactly from ProtoIndoEuropean Sek, which means to cut.
    Think the idea that Saxons were calling themselves like that because of the Seaks blade might not be entirely true.
    Or might be not true at all.

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