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Thread: Saxons, or the People of the Knife (Seax)?

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    Saxons, or the People of the Knife (Seax)?



    Hello,

    I searched and read in the past, from the internet, multiple things about ancients Saxons.
    And what I found is that, during the migration of the Saxons to England, they were carrying a typical weapon, the Seax, which was a longer knife.
    The word Seax existed in Old English, meaning a knife.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax (the pronounciation is Seaks)
    As a paranthesis, the word Sex is from actual English and is of Latin origins. So it has no link with old Saex word.

    The Gaelic speakers of England and Walles and Ireland called these people:
    Sais.
    And this is confirmed, by the fact that in Romania, Transylvania, the migrants brought from Lower Saxony were called by the Romance speakers from Romania:
    Sas, plural, sasi.

    Another theory, is that Saxons comes from the name Saka, that was attributed to Scythians.
    I do not deny the theory that some Scythians, which according to genetic research were mostly R1B, have settled in today Lower Saxony and brought with them both the Horse raiding custom and the use of a knife,as a custom.
    And from the mixing of these Scythians with local West Germanic people, from those days Lower Saxony, resulted the Ancient Saxons.
    Later, a part of the Ancient Saxons migrated to England, having with them Saexs,as defense weapons.

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    It seems that Scythians were speaking an Iranic language.
    Have found this study, which compares Old English/English with Persian language.
    http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Cultur...t9-bH_FPLZ1ZEs
    It seems that from the European languages, old English was most close to Persian and this should be due to the influence that Scythians had in forming the Saxons.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    People of the Knife (Seax) seems to be a folk etymology, Strabo says that Scythians called their land in Armenia Sakasen, in Armenian -šen is the main place name suffix which itself is a loanword from Iranian, probably Scythian language.
    Polish traveler Benedict (1200 - 1280 AD) says that the people of Saksin in the north of Caucasus who are called Saxi are Goths, it seems to be possible that these people were Scythians who adopted the Germanic (Gothic) culture. We have some info about Crimean Gothic language, this language should be actually called Irano-Germanic because some important words, like numerals, have Iranian origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another theory, is that Saxons comes from the name Saka, that was attributed to Scythians.
    I do not deny the theory that some Scythians, which according to genetic research were mostly R1B, have settled in today Lower Saxony and brought with them both the Horse raiding custom and the use of a knife,as a custom.
    And from the mixing of these Scythians with local West Germanic people, from those days Lower Saxony, resulted the Ancient Saxons.
    Later, a part of the Ancient Saxons migrated to England, having with them Saexs,as defense weapons.
    I find this unlikely. Saka and Scythian were exonyms given by foreigners (mainly Greeks and Pesians and then all the others via them), not how those peoples really named themselves. Also, that etymology doesn't explainthe /ks/ instead of simply saka or sakiscor whatever. Besides, AFAIK most Scythian aDNA has yielded various Y-DNA haplogrous, but chief among them was R1a, not R1b, and certainly not the R1b clades that are most found in West Germanic people. I'm also unsure about any archaeological evidence of Scythian migrations to a place as western as Germany. Unless their genetic impact was minimal, we should expect some East Asian and South-Central Asian ancestry in the descendants of Saxons were they heavily derived from Scythians.

    I think saxon must simply derive from a self-designation related to a native word. Seax, "knife", would make sense on its own, and I don't think they needed to have learned those skills from Scythians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I find this unlikely. Saka and Scythian were exonyms given by foreigners (mainly Greeks and Pesians and then all the others via them), not how those peoples really named themselves. Also, that etymology doesn't explainthe /ks/ instead of simply saka or sakiscor whatever. Besides, AFAIK most Scythian aDNA has yielded various Y-DNA haplogrous, but chief among them was R1a, not R1b, and certainly not the R1b clades that are most found in West Germanic people. I'm also unsure about any archaeological evidence of Scythian migrations to a place as western as Germany. Unless their genetic impact was minimal, we should expect some East Asian and South-Central Asian ancestry in the descendants of Saxons were they heavily derived from Scythians.


    I think saxon must simply derive from a self-designation related to a native word. Seax, "knife", would make sense on its own, and I don't think they needed to have learned those skills from Scythians.

    We know Scythians who lived in Sakastan (modern Sistan) called themselves Saksi (Sagzi in Shahnameh), other than Greek and Persian, there is also Ishkuza (š-k-z) in ancient Assyrian sources, Assyrians were also in direct contact with Scythians, it seems to be clear that this name was used by Scythians themselves.
    Haplogroup R1a has the highest frequency in Poalnd and East Germany where Saxony is located, one of the most important Scythian treasures has been discovered in Witaszkowo in western Poland, close to the German border.
    According to The Cambridge History of Iran, Lusatian culture (1300-500 BC) was destroyed by Scythians, in page 192, you can see the major Scythian finds in Europe, most of them are in the regions where Saxons lived:





    Baltic sea was called Scythian/Sarmatian ocean in the ancient Greek/Roman sources, there are many other evidences which show the name of Saxons relate to Scythians, I don't know why folk etymologies should matter.

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    Well, English people (which were called in the Irish and Welsh dialects "sasanach" or "saxon") do have a lot of tradition related to horse riding, horse races, keeping horses of rare breeds and so on.
    These traditions are not found anywhere else, in Europe, at such extent as are found at the English people.
    So is possible that these traditions with horses were brought in Lower Saxony by Scythians and adopted by a lot of ancient Saxons.
    And a notice, people from Lower Saxony are still calling them "niedersachsen" or the "lower saxons".
    Lower Saxony have a lot ot horses, also.
    https://www.lower-saxony.de/tourism_...ing/99315.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We know Scythians who lived in Sakastan (modern Sistan) called themselves Saksi (Sagzi in Shahnameh), other than Greek and Persian, there is also Ishkuza (š-k-z) in ancient Assyrian sources, Assyrians were also in direct contact with Scythians, it seems to be clear that this name was used by Scythians themselves.
    Haplogroup R1a has the highest frequency in Poalnd and East Germany where Saxony is located, one of the most important Scythian treasures has been discovered in Witaszkowo in western Poland, close to the German border.
    According to The Cambridge History of Iran, Lusatian culture (1300-500 BC) was destroyed by Scythians, in page 192, you can see the major Scythian finds in Europe, most of them are in the regions where Saxons lived:





    Baltic sea was called Scythian/Sarmatian ocean in the ancient Greek/Roman sources, there are many other evidences which show the name of Saxons relate to Scythians, I don't know why folk etymologies should matter.
    Saxons, if I rely on some maps, were settled between the Netherland and the most western part of Thuringe, and under the Schleswigh-Holstein, south the Jutland, until north to Hamburg, so they were rather northern and western, not very centered on the findings you evocate. I know it isn't enough in itself to absolutely discard your "theory", but why not to search other links with other folks of Europe, until France, in place of focalising on Saxons; BTW the Lower Saxony is the only true one, and the Saxony of ex Eastern Germany (RDA) seems rather the result of later feudal or post-feudal extensions without ethnic link with first Saxons, a folk rather turned towards the sea.

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    an old 'new' theory again?
    was the Saxon dialect so different from other Germanic dialects?
    Western IE tribes (Celts, Italics) had no horse and no cutlass or sword, until Saxons arrived?
    The link provided by Mihaitzateo (thanks) does not prove too much, I think. We know Germanic dialects offer a bit more closeness to Indo-Iranians dialects than Celtic and Italic do, by instance, but Baltic and Slavic too. And among all the common roots with Iranian, some are shared too by other IE dialects, evidently.

    I suppose sak- in Saka could be the same as sc- (sk-) in the name Scythian as well as something else - reconstructed PIE can give us several roots in s°k-/s°g/sk°- which could have given sak- in Germanics and Iranian languages (by instance) with same or different meanings -
    The diverses evolutions comporting deplacements of stress in words and contacts phenomenons break the ancient phonetic ressemblances and create new ones. We can imagine any kind of specific filiations between languages, based on phonetic closeness of words elements evolved long ago, without any serious basis.

    concerning numbers


    • 1 – ۱ yek (یک)
    • 2 – ۲ do (دو)
    • 3 – ۳ se (سه)
    • 4 – ۴ chahâr (چهار)
    • 5 – ۵ panj (پنج)
    • 6 – ۶ shesh (شش)
    • 7 – ۷ haft (هفت)
    • 8 – ۸ hasht (هشت)
    • 9 – ۹ noh (نه)
    • 10 – ۱۰ dah (ده)
    • 11 – ۱۱ yâzdah (یازده)
    • 12 – ۱۲ davâzdah (دوازده)
    • 13 – ۱۲ sizdah (سیزده)
    • 14 – ۱۴ chahârdah (چهارده)
    • 15 – ۱۵ poonzdah (پانزده)
    • 16 – ۱۶ shoonzdah (شانزده)
    • 17 – ۱۷ hifdah (هفده)
    • 18 – ۱۸ hijdah (هجده)
    • 19 – ۱۹ noozdah (نوزده)
    • 20 – ۲۰ bist (بیست)
    • 30 – ۳۰ si (سی)
    • 40 – ۴۰ chehel (چهل)
    • 50 – ۵۰ panjâh (پنجاه)
    • 60 – ۶۰ shast (شصت

    I don't see too much what sort of special link they show with Germanic numbers

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    We know Scythians who lived in Sakastan (modern Sistan) called themselves Saksi (Sagzi in Shahnameh), other than Greek and Persian, there is also Ishkuza (š-k-z) in ancient Assyrian sources, Assyrians were also in direct contact with Scythians, it seems to be clear that this name was used by Scythians themselves.
    Haplogroup R1a has the highest frequency in Poalnd and East Germany where Saxony is located, one of the most important Scythian treasures has been discovered in Witaszkowo in western Poland, close to the German border.
    According to The Cambridge History of Iran, Lusatian culture (1300-500 BC) was destroyed by Scythians, in page 192, you can see the major Scythian finds in Europe, most of them are in the regions where Saxons lived:

    Baltic sea was called Scythian/Sarmatian ocean in the ancient Greek/Roman sources, there are many other evidences which show the name of Saxons relate to Scythians, I don't know why folk etymologies should matter.
    The Saxons who we are discussing in this thread did NOT come from Freistaat Sachsen in Germany, they instead came from Lower Saxony (not lower on the map, lower in terms of sea level). Lower Saxony is located between the Netherlands and Denmark.

    The Anglo-Saxons, being a conglomeration of Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians came from the coasts of the North Sea and many settled in Britain and along the coast of France. In Lower Saxony DNA testing of "ancient" remains from the medieval period show high levels of I1, which is expected in the Netherlands-Northern Germany-Denmark area along the North Sea.

    I understand the urge to link the Saxons to the Scythians based on Greek and Roman etymologies and shaky hypotheses but there is no real concrete evidence of a Saxon-Scythian relation and the origin of the name for the Saxons likely lies with their use of the seax knife. However the seax was not restricted to the Saxons, most Germanic people (be them Western, Northern or Eastern Germanic) used seax knives for various purposes ranging from war, crafting, etc.

    It should also be noted that the Anglo-Saxons and Saxons in general were not known for their use of horses in battle, which is what the Scythians were famous for. In fact the Anglo-Saxons rarely used horses in war and most evidence shows they simply rode them to battle and dismounted to fight. The northerly Anglo-Saxon kingdoms of Northumbria seems to have used horses in war as a result of their proximity to British Celtic people.

    The language of Old English is most closely related to Old Frisian, the origins of Germanic are likely closely linked to Balto-Slavic and they together are likely closer to the Iranian languages than Italo-Celtic languages.

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    Vikings and Saxons did used a knife like Seax, but East Germanics did not used.
    At least, this is what the link posted here says.
    As for Scythians, their Y DNA is mostly R1B-P312 so from this point of view, they would be rather related to Celto-Romans, than to the Germanics.
    In regards to Y DNA, is well known that R1B-U106 is present in significant percentages at West Germanics speakers and it seems, SE England, also.
    R1B-U106 is not from R1B-P312 so this surely is not from Scythians.
    At the current Lower Saxons there is significant R1B-P312, but it seems to be rather related to some Celtic people.
    This is the Y DNA of the ethnic Saxons from Lower Saxony, currently:

    From this Y DNA, generic R1B-P312 (1%), J2 (3%), R1-Z280 (1%),R1B-L23 (1%) and maybe, even R1B-L21 (7%) could be related to ancient Scythians. So maybe even 13% of Y DNA from Lower Saxony is of Scythians origin.
    Sure, R1B-L21 is also present at the Bell Beakers so maybe Bell Beakers might have been related to Scythians.
    Is there any traces of Bell Beakers passing through Lower Saxony in their migration to British Isles?
    Scythian origins was disputed between English, Scotts etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Descent_claims
    My opinion is that actually Lower Saxony is where Scythians settled, but they were not in high numbers, just a group of elite warriors.
    And Ancient Saxons, as an ethnicity, might have resulted from the mixing of West Germanic Culture with some Scythian cultural influence.
    This Scythian cultural influence have mostly remained at English people besides in Lower Saxony , with their passion towards horses.

    Another thing, SE England people might be very close, from a genetic point of view, to current Lower Saxony people.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 11-05-19 at 13:14.

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    Some samples of R1A Scythians, show them close to the current Nordish people of Europe (Germans,Austrians,Brits,Irish, Baltic people etc)"
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/...-scythian.html
    This is the Autosomal DNA closeness to the current Europe Nordish people:
    Lithuanian 0.645247
    Estonian 0.645233
    Latvian 0.645024
    Russian_Kostroma 0.644946
    Irish 0.644902
    Orcadian 0.644792
    Norwegian 0.644754
    Belorussian 0.644727
    Swedish 0.644667
    Polish 0.644664
    Austrian 0.644639
    Danish 0.644587
    English_Cornwall 0.644556
    Belgian 0.644552
    Scottish_Argyll 0.644548

    However, no one included Germans, or Lower Saxony people, or SE English people, to calculate a similarity to those, also.
    Cornwall people were considering themselves Insular Celtic ethnics.
    So, is quite clear that when some Scotts, Poles, English were claiming Scythian descent, this was not untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Saxons, if I rely on some maps, were settled between the Netherland and the most western part of Thuringe, and under the Schleswigh-Holstein, south the Jutland, until north to Hamburg, so they were rather northern and western, not very centered on the findings you evocate. I know it isn't enough in itself to absolutely discard your "theory", but why not to search other links with other folks of Europe, until France, in place of focalising on Saxons; BTW the Lower Saxony is the only true one, and the Saxony of ex Eastern Germany (RDA) seems rather the result of later feudal or post-feudal extensions without ethnic link with first Saxons, a folk rather turned towards the sea.
    Some kilometers north or south can't change anything, as I said these Scythians (Saxons) had adopted the Germanic (Gothic) culture in the north of Black sea, in the ancient Greco-Roman sources Goths and some other Germanic tribes were mostly called Scythian, it seems to be clear that they were Goths who invaded the Roman empire, not Scythians that we read in Roman sources.

    The most important point is that Scythians called their land Saksen everywhere they lived and Germanic sources themselves say that orignal Germanic people migrated from Scythia to the Germanic lands, I don't know why we should deny the relation between these names.


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    A short notice, Scythians are noticed to live in Central Asia and speaking Iranic languages.
    Also, since ancient Scythians had R1B-P312, most of their paternal lines, they are quite different, from this point of view, from our current days Iranians.
    Current day Iranians do not either have a strong horse culture. So current day Iranians are not that related, from a cultural point of view, to ancient Scythians, except the language spoken.
    From the last 200 years nations of Europe culture, the Americans from before and around 1800 seems to have been most closed to the ancient Scythians.
    And the Americans from around 1800, were more related to ancient British Celts and ancient Saxons, from a cultural point of view.
    A short video that I have found from history.com about the Scythians.

    Even the mass migration of lots of Brits, Irish and Germans to the US, is something culturally related to what ancient Scythians did.
    The US still preserved a strong horse culture, in some places.

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    A short notice, the thread was opened to tell that Saxons were named like that, because they were using a specific type of knife.
    An article, which shows clearly that besides Saxons, such knives were only used by Vikings.
    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2014/03/people-of-the-blade.html


    Another short article, which is also showing that Saxons were named like that, because they used that type of knife, called Seax (Seaks).
    http://news.richarddenning.co.uk/?p=269565
    Another notice, that Saxons settled in South East of England.
    It seems that the Angles, which migrated earlier, having been very likely allies of Roman Empire are shown on this map to have been more North from SE England.
    The Angli have come from the current land of Denmark.
    http://news.richarddenning.co.uk/?p=269565

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    Ok

    Maybe I am wrong,

    But Saxons were Dan as in Mycenean world Ach-aioi and Dan-aoi
    Not I do not they were Greeks,
    Just curious about the similarity of names,

    Anyway could Saxon instead of Seak=sword have etymological origin in Sach = King religious king, sacred nobility,
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    Some kilometers north or south can't change anything, as I said these Scythians (Saxons) had adopted the Germanic (Gothic) culture in the north of Black sea, in the ancient Greco-Roman sources Goths and some other Germanic tribes were mostly called Scythian, it seems to be clear that they were Goths who invaded the Roman empire, not Scythians that we read in Roman sources.

    The most important point is that Scythians called their land Saksen everywhere they lived and Germanic sources themselves say that orignal Germanic people migrated from Scythia to the Germanic lands, I don't know why we should deny the relation between these names.

    The Scottish also claimed to be Scythian in the Declaration of Arbroath. Want to know why? As a tool to show the Pope they were different to the English during the Scottish Wars of Independence. No one believes there is any weight in that connection and it was simply a political tool. The Germanic people at the time of the rise of the Frankish, Burgundian, Visigothic and Ostrogothic kingdoms claimed descent from many ancient people such as the Scythians and Trojans, these are claims fabricated in such a way as to make the descent of their kings more legitimate through descent. This does not make it true in any way shape or form, the Anglo-Saxon kings in England usually claimed descent from Woden (Odin), again for legitimacy purposes.

    Just because various words have similar appearances and sounds does not mean they share the same etymology. The Germanic Saxons acquired their name through their use the seax, not from any relation to the Scythians of antiquity. When the Romans and Byzantines referred to Scythians they were referring to people who dwelled in modern day Ukraine and the Pontic Steppe, this could mean the people in that area could be of various ethnicities. Examples include: Flavius Gaudentius father of Flavius Aëtius, he is described as Scythian and more likely a Goth. Baduarius was also described as Scythian, but he was Gothic based on his albeit latinised given name.

    I should mention the Chernyakhov culture in the Ukraine, Romania, Moldova and parts of Belarus. This culture was a blend of Gothic, Sarmatian, Slavic and Geto-Dacian, your chances of finding Scythian influence are higher here as this is the place where the Eastern Germanic groups spent time interacting with other cultural groups before they began to interact with Rome. Eastern Germanic tribes such as the Vandals and Goths used armies with a strong cavalry, notably the Vandals were more cavalry based than their Gothic counterparts.

    Again I repeat that the Saxons who invaded Britain were not known for their equestrian skills in war, instead like most North Sea Germanic people they were known for their piracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ok

    Maybe I am wrong,

    But Saxons were Dan as in Mycenean world Ach-aioi and Dan-aoi
    Not I do not they were Greeks,
    Just curious about the similarity of names,

    Anyway could Saxon instead of Seak=sword have etymological origin in Sach = King religious king, sacred nobility,
    The Saxons were not an Aegean people, nor did they have their origins in Aegean people. They developed out of the various pre- and proto-Germanic groups that resided in and expanded out of southern Scandinavia.

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    And still in this thread, I understand now with ease what Wessex, Sussex, Essex meant:
    Wessex - kingdom of West Saxons
    Sussex - kingom of South Saxons
    Essex - kingdom of East Saxons

    The name in Old English for Wessex was Westseaxna rīce.
    And the name in Old English for Kingdom of Essex was Ēast Seaxna Rīce.
    Similarry, the name for Kingdom of Sussex have been Sūþseaxna rīce.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    And still in this thread, I understand now with ease what Wessex, Sussex, Essex meant:
    Wessex - kingdom of West Saxons
    Sussex - kingom of South Saxons
    Essex - kingdom of East Saxons

    The name in Old English for Wessex was Westseaxna rīce.
    And the name in Old English for Kingdom of Essex was Ēast Seaxna Rīce.
    Similarry, the name for Kingdom of Sussex have been Sūþseaxna rīce.

    Indeed.

    Similarly, for the Anglian kingdoms in Britain


    • Norþanhymbra Rīce - Kingdom of Northumbria (north of the River Humber), the product of two kingdoms: Bernicia (Beornice) and Deira (Dere)
    • Ēast Engla Rīce - Kingdom of East Anglia
    • Miercna Rīce - Kingdom of Mercia

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    A short notice, the thread was opened to tell that Saxons were named like that, because they were using a specific type of knife.
    An article, which shows clearly that besides Saxons, such knives were only used by Vikings.
    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2014/03/people-of-the-blade.html


    Another short article, which is also showing that Saxons were named like that, because they used that type of knife, called Seax (Seaks).
    http://news.richarddenning.co.uk/?p=269565
    Another notice, that Saxons settled in South East of England.
    It seems that the Angles, which migrated earlier, having been very likely allies of Roman Empire are shown on this map to have been more North from SE England.
    The Angli have come from the current land of Denmark.
    http://news.richarddenning.co.uk/?p=269565
    Using knife differs from calling oneself "knife", if they called themselves knife-lover or something like it then it could be a possible etymology, but just the meaning of " knife" is clearly a folk etymology, no one says "I am a knife". Scythians who used the same name for themselves, didn't live in another world, for a long time they were the eastern neighbours of Germanic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    A short notice, Scythians are noticed to live in Central Asia and speaking Iranic languages.
    Also, since ancient Scythians had R1B-P312, most of their paternal lines, they are quite different, from this point of view, from our current days Iranians.
    Current day Iranians do not either have a strong horse culture. So current day Iranians are not that related, from a cultural point of view, to ancient Scythians, except the language spoken.
    From the last 200 years nations of Europe culture, the Americans from before and around 1800 seems to have been most closed to the ancient Scythians.
    And the Americans from around 1800, were more related to ancient British Celts and ancient Saxons, from a cultural point of view.
    A short video that I have found from history.com about the Scythians.

    Even the mass migration of lots of Brits, Irish and Germans to the US, is something culturally related to what ancient Scythians did.
    The US still preserved a strong horse culture, in some places.
    Where did you find Scythians were predominently Y-R1b-312??? If I remember well, the diverse Scythians sites studied (not too much in every site) were heterogenous and seemingly showed mixtures of Eastern genuine Scythians with other (preceding) pops. To spare time, if you want, give me the states concerning the diverses places and distributions of Y-haplos of Scythians, please. BUt I'll try to find this on my proper side, if I 've time.
    &: someones consider Scythians as a culture more than an homogenous ethny, except maybe the firts ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    The Saxons were not an Aegean people, nor did they have their origins in Aegean people. They developed out of the various pre- and proto-Germanic groups that resided in and expanded out of southern Scandinavia.
    I do agree they were not Aegean,and never said so.

    I ask,

    q1) is the coinsidence of Saxon and Danes with Achaians and Danaoi random? or has to do with deeper language, land geography, some cultural elements?

    q2) could the word Saxon be originated in older forms of IE and has meaning of Sah sach = Priest and king, (notice could Czech come from same root)

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    It should be mentioned that the Old Saxon word for "knife" is sahs from Proto-Germanic *sahsą from proto-Indo-European *sek- "to cut" (k>h sound change in proto-Germanic), seax is an Old English word, it is meaningless to say the name of Saxon is from Old English (Anglo-Saxon)! It seems to be much more possible that English seax "Saxon sword" is from the name of Saxon, not vice versa, compare to Firangi from the name of Frank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firangi_(sword)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Old English seax, sax and Old Frisian sax are identical with Old Saxon and Old High German saks. Old English is a language which formed from Old Saxon and the language spoken by the Angles and Jutes and the various other diverse Germanic newcomers to Britain.
    There is no convincing evidence to tie the Saxons to the Scythians, I encourage showing genetic evidence, archaeological evidence of Scythian artifacts in Nord Albingia and southern Jutland, etc. We cannot tie these people together without clear evidence and linguistic arguments for the origin of the terms Saxon, seax, saks, etc is not going to provide solid enough arguments as this thread has mostly gone in circles with Scythian endonyms, exonyms and their placenames in comparison to the demonym of the Saxons and how they are referred to in non-Germanic areas.
    @Yetos, Czech (Čech) is from the root of čel-which is cognate to the word člověk which means human or person. The proto-Slavic form of the word, *čьlověkъ is related to the Old English word for crowd sceolu and the Lithuanian word vaĩkas for child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus View Post
    It should be mentioned that the Old Saxon word for "knife" is sahs from Proto-Germanic *sahsą from proto-Indo-European *sek- "to cut" (k>h sound change in proto-Germanic), seax is an Old English word, it is meaningless to say the name of Saxon is from Old English (Anglo-Saxon)! It seems to be much more possible that English seax "Saxon sword" is from the name of Saxon, not vice versa, compare to Firangi from the name of Frank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firangi_(sword)
    Well, this thread starts to become fascinating.
    Sorry for deviating from the original subject, but the Firangi Swords, manufactured mostly at Solingen, by Frankish craftsmen, reminds me of the Frankish Samo, which was a merchant and a warrior.
    This Samo brought Swords to the Western Slavs (or Slavs?) and these swords helped the Slavs to obtain their freedom from under Avars domination.
    Samo according to the legend was rewarded with 12 Slavic wives :) .
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo
    So, connecting what is written in the link presented above:
    https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot....the-blade.html which presents a Slavic knife looking like this:
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I4KhvHMbK...avic+knife.jpg

    And a Firangi sword, made by the Frankish craftsmen, that is looking like this:

    We can see a strong similarty.

    If we take the ancient seax used by the Saxons, Vikings, it is looking different:


    And we can also see the sword that was used by the Saxons, which had a curved blade, according to the flags of Essex and Middlesex:
    Flag of Middlesex:

    Flag of Essex:


    If we look at the swords used by Musketeers, in France, we see a stunning resemblance to the Firangi swords, which are of Frankish origins.

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    Scythians were only R1B and R1A :
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/ira...s-and-r1b-l23/
    The Saxons from England are having more K1 maternal DNA than today English, which seems to confirm that Scythians did settled in Lower Saxony and mixed with the local there.
    Scythians are European people, as Autosomal DNA, with some overlapping with our days Scandinavians:
    https://indo-european.eu/2018/10/ira...s-and-r1b-l23/

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