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Thread: Violence in the Corded Ware Advance against GAC

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Quite thorough, and quite convincing. Maybe I expected too much of them. But look at my own case: I know I inherited genes from La Tène and Haslstatt Celts, and beyond that from Bell Beakers. I know southern Germany inherited a share of the same. I know Beakers invaded Britain. But I also inherited much from an Iberian-like farmer substrate. This should make it possible for a company to place me on a map more precisely than by saying I am 49% German-like, or 69% Irish-like. Maybe they shouldn't call it "ancestry", but specify it's a "ratio of shared ancestry" with given populations. It would be clearer. But of course, it might not sell so well.
    To be fair, in spite of all the inconsistencies I mentioned upthread, I have somehow managed to work my way through that muddle to fairly clear conclusions in terms of my own ancestry. Maybe Halfalp is right somehow, and by combining the approximations of the various calculators, we can sketch out something satisfactory in the end. But I have been hard at it for months, cross-checking data and results, reading papers and comments, etc. I am not sure every customer of these genomic companies goes to such lengths to sort it all out. Some people can end up feeling perplexed, or sceptical, or unsettled.
    I also agree that a family tree is a precious thing to have. Mine reaches back to the mid 1500s. But I'll never get beyond that, for lack of archives. Genetics has to take over at some point.
    Mine too, although in my father's case there are scattered references back a couple of hundred years. We're both very lucky.

    What does that tell me? It tells me I'm Italian, more particularly an Italian with ancestry from right where I surmised, mostly the area between Parma, La Spezia and Toscana. I know just from the papers on ancient dna that means I'm heavily EEF, with some later steppe ancestry.

    The ancient dna papers, and even just archaeology and history also tell me generally what groups went into the mix in my area(s). It would be interesting to know how much Gallic I have, how much "Roman", how much Etruscan, do I have some of that Langobard etc. Perhaps upcoming papers will fill in some of the gaps. It's all very interesting, but it's not essential to me, because it doesn't change the only identity that matters to me.

    We're all different, and we all want different things from this.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    it's sad that Neolithic farming communities experienced terrible tragedies such as this one
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    it's sad that Neolithic farming communities experienced terrible tragedies such as this one
    nature is cruel and so was human history, it is a universal truth

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes indeed, all the Neolithic male y was almost wiped out (but not the mtDan) by some special disease that only afflicted Neolithic men. Please!

    Goodness, what happened to all the Eurogenes type bragging about all the blonde, Conan like barbarians from the steppes who killed all the men and took all the women? Is everyone trying to clean up their act?

    @half alp,
    Nobody's results about anything should be taken at face value. The snps used and the methodology used should be published, i.e. transparent, so that others can see if the results can be duplicated.

    I don't see how anyone can argue with that.
    But in this specific case the women were also killed, so it doesn't look like the typical thing like "they came, killed the males and took the women as wives or sexual slaves".

    In any case, I believe there was a lot of warfare and post-war violence heavily skewed towards the males during the IEization of Europe (and elsewhere), but I also think that a significant part of that reduction in pre-IE Y-DNA lines came through "subtler" forms of violence like a strong social hierarchy, slavery or servitude, lower social and economic status, loss of property to the incoming males and so on (all of that is particularly harmful in a society with well accepted polygamy), which severely reduced their reproductive success along several generations.

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    don't blame nature, today even many people have not problems with massacres, they just are well shrouded by high egos delivering unsane supremacism which delivers racism, so that even not having hunger or any blood revenge they act against other races like against rats or somelike.
    http://en.lisapoyakama.org/the-namibian-genocide/
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    But in this specific case the women were also killed, so it doesn't look like the typical thing like "they came, killed the males and took the women as wives or sexual slaves".

    In any case, I believe there was a lot of warfare and post-war violence heavily skewed towards the males during the IEization of Europe (and elsewhere), but I also think that a significant part of that reduction in pre-IE Y-DNA lines came through "subtler" forms of violence like a strong social hierarchy, slavery or servitude, lower social and economic status, loss of property to the incoming males and so on (all of that is particularly harmful in a society with well accepted polygamy), which severely reduced their reproductive success along several generations.
    Yes, I agree with that. I just think it's clear that violence was a part of it. If nothing else, it's just the pattern everywhere in almost every place and era. Terrible but true, as Bicicleur said.

    Kristiansen has something to say about it in general terms. You can start around eleven minutes in because first he discusses the plague pandemics.



    As to whether this is inter-GAC violence or CW versus GAC we may never know, but this is the time of the CW advance. They were around them. My profession taught me one thing, coincidences are almost always suspect. :) As for why women were killed, maybe they did take some of the younger ones with them, maybe not. I'm sure it depended on how many they needed at a particular time. CW wasn't a sophisticated culture with huge latifundia to be farmed or monumental structures to be built, for that matter. I think there would have been a limit on how many they could absorb. Enough, eventually, so that most northern Europeans are about half steppe, but not all. Plus, we know from that paper and note from the Reich Lab last year, and from the mtDna that they brought some women with them.

    The cultural aspects are also extremely interesting. As I said, GAC culture was very Yamnaya like, so Yamnaya like that Gimbutas thought they were steppe people. Quite a few papers recently have proposed that many of these adaptations to a changing climate, like more mobility, more reliance on herding, etc. actually started in "Europe" and moved onto the steppe before moving back.

    It's also interesting that although apparently patrilineal and patrilocal, there was great care taken in burying children near their mothers. I don't remember anything like that from the steppe burials all the way down to the Langobards, although maybe there were some.

    Ed. Meanwhile, on the sites you would guess, the obsession, with tens and tens and maybe a hundred posts is their damn pigmentation. It never ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    don't blame nature, today even many people have not problems with massacres, they just are well shrouded by high egos delivering unsane supremacism which delivers racism, so that even not having hunger or any blood revenge they act against other races like against rats or somelike.
    http://en.lisapoyakama.org/the-namibian-genocide/
    Are GAC and CWC supposed to be different Races? Why are you infusing Racial Prejudice into this topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    But in this specific case the women were also killed, so it doesn't look like the typical thing like "they came, killed the males and took the women as wives or sexual slaves".

    In any case, I believe there was a lot of warfare and post-war violence heavily skewed towards the males during the IEization of Europe (and elsewhere), but I also think that a significant part of that reduction in pre-IE Y-DNA lines came through "subtler" forms of violence like a strong social hierarchy, slavery or servitude, lower social and economic status, loss of property to the incoming males and so on (all of that is particularly harmful in a society with well accepted polygamy), which severely reduced their reproductive success along several generations.
    Slaves probably aren't that valuable in the absence of a sophisticated economy. If you peruse the accounts of tribal warfare in the Vedas or the Old Testament, the things that stand out as being most desired by the herdsmen are livestock and shiny objects.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Almost always things are not as they seem. An assault by surprise would have shown generalized blows in many parts of the body and nevertheless the corpses presented all blows to the head. An assaulting group at that time with that degree of perfection I doubt would incline me more for a murderer or murderers of the same group than the victims. Perhaps a man or two who had been rejected by the group for X reasons and then knowing the customs of the group would have agreed with some deception to the group after absent men and would have committed mass murder in a perfectionist way and by surprise with blows to the head since a surprise assault I believe would have caused different types of widespread injuries in different parts of the body of the victims.

    So my conclusion is that the murderer or murderers belonged to the same family or very close group that would have taken revenge for some offer received perhaps expulsion from the group and if they could not enjoy the advantages of the group they would leave the group without men who had expelled them from the group that should be the men who had gone out to hunt etc

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Considering the execution like death and the respectful burial, couldn't it be a sacrifice?

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    A sacrifice I think would have involved a kind of ritual and a different staging where they would have sacrificed only to women or children or some man, but just as a whole family is something very dirty, it would not be to the liking of the Gods. Killing blows on the head is very atavistic, very familiar, and I think that the executor or executors must have felt very offended, hurt and humiliated with this murdered tribe and for that reason they crush their heads, the structure from which the thoughts and ideas that must have offened the murderer who must be closely related to them.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Gentlemen,

    A huge majority of the ancient samples we have who met a violent death were first beaten over the head with either an ax or a club. Other than an occasional arrow or dagger wound that's all they had. There's nothing unusual about it. This was still basically the stone age, with copper and bronze just starting to make an appearance, and the property of only the very elite.

    There are no defensive wounds. This was not a battle or even much of a struggle. These people, predominantly women and children of a small settlement, were clearly unaware of their danger, captured, perhaps when sleeping or eating and going about their work, and then executed, as there are no defensive wounds on the corpses.

    It's highly unlikely there was anything ritualistic about it, as nothing was done to the bodies. The heads were not removed, as was often done by the later groups called "Celts", to skin and dry and make drinking cups, or just to hand on belts or put on stakes around their homes. Their chests don't seem to have been ripped open to get at the heart and on and on.

    It happened often between various human groups. There's nothing "warriorly" about it no matter who did it. You should read the accounts of what was done to American Indian villages.

    The butchery went in both directions.
    "n 1782, a group of Moravian Protestants in Ohio killed 96 Christianized Delaware Indians, illustrating the growing contempt for native people. Captain David Williamson ordered the converted Delawares, who had been blamed for attacks on white settlements, to go to the cooper shop two at a time, where militiamen beat them to death with wooden mallets and hatchets."


    "Annuities and provisions promised to Indians through government treaties were slow in being delivered, leaving Dakota Sioux people, who were restricted to reservation lands on the Minnesota frontier, starving and desperate. After a raid of nearby white farms for food turned into a deadly encounter, Dakotas continued raiding, leading to the Little Crow War of 1862, in which 490 settlers, mostly women and children, were killed. President Lincoln sent soldiers, who defeated the Dakota; and after a series of mass trials, more than 300 Dakota men were sentenced to death.While Lincoln commuted most of the sentences, on the day after Christmas at Mankato, military officials hung 38 Dakotas at once—the largest mass execution in American history. More than 4,000 people gathered in the streets to watch, many bringing picnic baskets. The 38 were buried in a shallow grave along the Minnesota River, but physicians dug up most of the bodies to use as medical cadavers."

    There's nothing "romantic" or "honorable" about this kind of warfare.

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    we know of european early neolithic mass graves with men, women, old people and children. sometimes women age range 15-30 are underrepresented. this always happened andbit's not something tied to a specific culture. i highly doubt those late neolithic people weremuch more peacefull people. there is certainly a possibility that they were also fighting among each other and did not unite against CWC. actually maybe them fighting each other could have been a cause for CW success who knows. looking at human history this happened very often when people wre fighting each other or they did not want to unite and then a third one uses it as an advantage.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 11-05-19 at 16:55.

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    How a whole family died in their Minnesota mansion
    The father shot each of his three children in their rooms in their heads. The wife heard the shots and wanted to call 911, but could not: she was also shot. Finally, the man committed suicide.
    https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/m
    innesota-minneapolis-mansion-familia-asesinada-muerta-eeuu_0_Bye_MQYDXe.html


    Spooky: reveal how they massacred 8 relatives
    As confirmed by the preliminary forensic report, released last week, all the victims received several bullets, mostly in the head.
    https://www.clarin.com/sociedad/minn...ye_MQYDXe.html

    There are hundreds more cases all over the internet of blows to the head or head as a target to kill and in most cases are ex, ex-boyfriend, e.t.c. or people who have had a very close relationship with the family.


    I still think that killing blows to the head at present with bullets is very familiar and involves a lot of aggression and a very big feeling of offering in the murderer for having been related to strong ties with relatives or the group he has murdered.

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    You guys are giving late neolithic people too much credit. Even in antiquity no one had any qualms about killing people and taking their stuff, which is the most likely what happened here.

    It was almost universal, and West Eurasia looks comparatively tame even. Research, for instance, the mass graves in MLBA China for a more impressive and gruesome archaeological record of male-driven expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cescut View Post
    Considering the execution like death and the respectful burial, couldn't it be a sacrifice?
    are we sure the killers were the "buriers"? of same family? of same tribe? of same ethny?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Forgot to post these:
    Fascinating - where would modern Europeans (or anyone else in the modern world) be on that principal component plot?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vandemonian View Post
    Fascinating - where would modern Europeans (or anyone else in the modern world) be on that principal component plot?
    The modern populations are the gray background dots.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    You can figure it out a bit using the modern PCA:


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    Thank you very much!

    The colors are difficult to make out, but it looks like there is a long band of mid-Easterners from the bottom right blending into southeastern Europe (Turkey, Armenia, etc) towards the top, with the Yamnaya between these southeastern Europeans and the Russian/Baltic samples in yellow. The bronze age transition samples are close to southern Europeans, while the Scandinavian hunter gatherers are on the left side of the Estonians and Icelanders. The western European hunter-gatherers are not well represented anymore, being far to the bottom left corner, but most akin to the Basques.

    Very interesting.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Slaves probably aren't that valuable in the absence of a sophisticated economy. If you peruse the accounts of tribal warfare in the Vedas or the Old Testament, the things that stand out as being most desired by the herdsmen are livestock and shiny objects.
    I agree a massive use of slave workforce may not be necessary in an unsophisticated economy, but I really doubt slavery and forms of servitude, caste and all sorts of class and labor oppression did not exist in societies that already showed a very clear notion of socioeconomic hierarchy and class stratification such as even the early steppe tribes, and certainly the CWC too. I recently learned that even the Northwest Pacific hunter-gatherers, who had a somewhat complex socioeconomic order even without agriculture and pastoralism, also had a nobility and, yes, a distinction between free commoners and slaves. Therefore I don't doubt many men might have survived, but they just couldn't afford to have large families (or even any family) at all in the new social order, just like it happened in the Americas. The men weren't all annihilated immediately, many of them became canon fodder as lowly soldiers, many others as slave or free, but not much better than a slave, workers. They became basically beasts of burden who wouldn't be "good husbands" (dowry and everything else) for the daughters of male-ruled households of a patriarchal society They just became "uninteresting" as partners as society changed, and economically, even psychologically broken.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    https://insitome.libsyn.com/neolithic-massacre

    Here is a new Insight podcast on this paper.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Most of what he asks them about we've discussed.

    I do find it interesting that when questioned more specifically about what the archaeologists found in terms of GAC vs Corded Ware, they said that there was basically no difference in terms of economy or subsistence strategies. For example, the GAC "farmer" people also had lots of cattle; they used them for transporting things in wagons; and, in fact ,some men were buried with numerous cattle, for perhaps some ritual purpose. They were mobile, moving from site to site, practicing a type of pastoral agriculture. They were also clearly patrilineal and patrilocal.

    So, I don't see how the Corded Ware "package" would have given them an economic advantage. Are we back to a combination of plague and warrior mentality? Corded Ware barely had copper, much less bronze at these early periods, and very few horses have been found. The archaeologist being questioned, however, says that the Corded Ware burials were more individualistic, as we've heard for a long time, more stratified, and had a lot more weapons than the GAC ones, although still stone weapons. He also cleared up for the umpteenth time that chariots weren't invented for close to a thousand years and that the use of horses for anything but food even in the Yamnaya at these early periods is still very much an "open questions".

    As to who committed the massacre, they punted, although to me it seemed as if when pressed by Khan one of them was leaning toward it being a manifestation of the change in genetics in northern and central Europe. As Kristiansen pointed out in his speech, they have found other massacres which were clearly committed by the new steppe admixed people.

    It is what it is.



    Also, are some of those papers correct which posit that this "mixed" farming/pastoral type package moved not west to east but east to west?

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